Why Create a Universe?

[PsychoSarah]

In that case I would say your motives are morally suspect.

I think we can rule boredom out as an answer for a morally perfect being.

Why? Morality is subjective. Creating a universe in and of itself could be considered morally neutral, because universes aren't demonstrably good or bad. Is creating a rock in and of itself a moral act?

Given how subjective morality is, this idea of moral perfection is moot. What is morally perfect to one person will differ from the perspective of another. Even god's morality would be on a subjective basis of its own views.

For example, let's consider the common perspective of how god's morality is. Bad things happen only because, in the end, they are necessary for the best possible outcome. There are a few problems with this line of thought, but instead, I will provide a few counters to how this would make god objectively moral:

all atrocities are not justifiable, even if the end result is ultimately good or the best of the ends.

all atrocities are justifiable as long as in the end, they ultimately lead to good or the best of ends.

Which do you support, and why? Remember, if god's morality fits the latter, this means that the Holocaust was justified. But hey, these are so often rooted in emotional appeal with such negative terms, so how about some positivity?

No good act is justified if the end result is ultimately bad or the worst of ends.

Good acts can be justified, even if the end result is ultimately bad or the worst of ends.

Now here is the interesting part: if the god of the bible supports the second of the first 2 statements, then it must support the first of the second 2 statements. This would place the "moral" being as actively preventing acts of good, because it knows that they will end badly. But, we don't see that happen in our world, now do we? But if god does not adhere to both of these statements, it is impossible to have a plan.

 

[Davian]

God is alive, so the most logical answer as to why He creates is to bring more life unto Himself.

If I were a living God that's exactly what I'd do because it would bring me joy and happiness to create more life and give of myself and receive genuine love and praise.

And if they don't provide that love and praise, burn 'em forever. They won't do that again.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, you don't make things unless there's a point. So assuming God made the universe, there must have been a point.

There really shouldn't be a reason why we can't figure it out. In spite of our limited perspective, we can know things about theology through the Bible and through reason.

Here's another question: why create anything at all? That includes the heavenly realm, angels, etc.

People make things all the time simply because they can or just want to....or to see if they can. There need not be a purpose inherent in the creation at all.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And if they don't provide that love and praise, burn 'em forever. They won't do that again.

Indeed.

I fail to see praise as genuine when the threat of eternal torment is the only other option. Genuine praise comes only when it's seen as deserved...and without the threat of pain.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

For me this fits in with (is consistent with) the concept of rational attraction to being, and with evolutionary takes on ethics:


"Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed."

koran http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah67.html

 

[Ana the Ist]

For me this fits in with (is consistent with) the concept of rational attraction to being, and with evolutionary takes on ethics:


"Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed."

koran http://www.noblequran.com/translation/surah67.html

Doesn't that just create another "why"?

As in...why would a god create someone just to "test their deeds"?

What's the point of that?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." Koran 51:56

For me initially this seemed absurdly extreme. But I htink that worship (elevating in ones heart and life) the summum bonum is natural, and also submitting to the summum bonum is logically speaking the mosty benign thing we can do. The best deed.

Like, by analogy listening to the inner angel rather than the inner demon.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." Koran 51:56

For me initially this seemed absurdly extreme. But I htink that worship (elevating in ones heart and life) the summum bonum is natural, and also submitting to the summum bonum is logically speaking the mosty benign thing we can do. The best deed.

Like, by analogy listening to the inner angel rather than the inner demon.

So...to summarize...

You believe god created the universe to create mankind. He created mankind to test them. He tests mankind to see if they will worship him.

Does that about sum it up?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Doesn't that just create another "why"?

I think the answe is in part God wanted to do justice.

As in...why would a god create someone just to "test their deeds"?

What's the point of that?

Well why would natural selection "hold onto" the living human agent as an adaptation? In either case its about good deeds being fitting and proper to the lifeform, a form of justice (ie what we deserve or what is fitting, appropriate or proper to our situation).

 

[GrowingSmaller]

A fair summary, Ana.

For me at least religion and belief in God "fits" my shoe size.

Man is crerated in the "best of forms" naturally. Worship prevents disfigurations so to speak of the spirit ands body...as a rule.

See below:

http://quran.com/95

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think the answe is in part God wanted to do justice.
Well why would natural selection "hold onto" the living human agent as an adaptation? In either case its about good deeds being fitting and proper to the lifeform, a form of justice (ie what we deserve or what is fitting, appropriate or proper to our situation).

You lost me at "to do justice". It's not as if there was unjust behavior before he created mankind....correct?

So he created mankind so he would have someone to judge?

 

[Ana the Ist]

A fair summary, Ana.

For me at least religion and belief in God "fits" my shoe size.

Man is crerated in the "best of forms" naturally. Worship prevents disfigurations so to speak of the spirit ands body...as a rule.

See below:

http://quran.com/95

I've read the Qur'an...don't claim to have understood all of it, but to each his own.

The appeal of what you've explained here is lost on me though.

Imagine if you met a couple you know and they told you they were expecting twins. You asked them what made them finally decide to have children...and they replied that they really wanted someone to judge.

I think my mouth would hang open at an answer like that. When did this stop appearing absurd to you?

 

[grasping the after wind]

That implies that God wanted or needed somebody to love. (I can't help thinking of the old Jefferson Airplane song, btw. ) Which raises a question about God's nature. The Abrahamic God is generally described as a perfect entity. And not just morally perfect, but perfect in every conceivable way. (If you studied Catholicism, then you know God's absolute perfection was the basis of St. Anselm's ontologic argument for God's existence.) If this is true, then why would such an entity need or want to love someone? A being of total and utter perfection would have no needs or wants of any kind, and would have no reason to do anything at all--let alone create an entire universe, and all the living things in it.

Perhaps perfection includes selflessness and it is not possible to be selfless in isolation or perhaps just the ability to love and that too is not possible in isolation. How does one that lacks perfection define perfection properly? There are a number of speculations on the nature of God but none of them can really be said to be authoritative as they, in the end, are merely speculations based upon incomplete evidence. I do not see perfection as having no wants or even needs, that may be the case, but to me a perfect being would not sit in self satisfied isolation but instead have a deep seated desire to give and share. Again as an imperfect being it is hard for me to properly place boundaries around what it means to be perfect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Perhaps perfection includes selflessness and it is not possible to be selfless in isolation or perhaps just the ability to love and that too is not possible in isolation. How does one that lacks perfection define perfection properly? There are a number of speculations on the nature of God but none of them can really be said to be authoritative as they, in the end, are merely speculations based upon incomplete evidence. I do not see perfection as having no wants or even needs, that may be the case, but to me a perfect being would not sit in self satisfied isolation but instead have a deep seated desire to give and share. Again as an imperfect being it is hard for me to properly place boundaries around what it means to be perfect.

I don't think the concept of perfection can hold emotional constrictions. To take that view, it would leave the subject unable to "perfectly" deal with certain situations...situations that might, for example, require cruelty or some such emotional description.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Here's a question: why create a universe? And why create life, specifically human beings, on planet earth?

So God could be surprised? One often notes that in the Bible, things didn't go the way He expected.

 

[Achilles6129]

So God could be surprised? One often notes that in the Bible, things didn't go the way He expected.

Are you saying that God isn't omniscient? The usual conception of him is that he is.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Are you saying that God isn't omniscient? The usual conception of him is that he is.

I tend to believe that our notions of God reflects societal development. Dogma (or mythology) was necessary for people to make sense of their world, to explain the unexplainable.

The need for an omniscient creator was due to the complete ignorance of the people. SOMEONE needed to know what was going on in order to imbue life with purpose.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Pope Benedict XVI offered an explanation for it in his encyclical Deus Caritas Est (On Christian Love - God is Love).

 

[Chriliman]

And if they don't provide that love and praise, burn 'em forever. They won't do that again.

Would you appreciate a God who is patient with you and diligent in trying to explain Himself to you in a way you can understand so that you'll believe He's real?

Your answer now might be that He's failing to explain Himself to you, but what if He's still patiently trying to reach out to you?

 

[Tree of Life]

Then why did he command that his people should have no other other gods before him? Not to mention this:

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength” (Deuteronomy 6:5).

This clearly expresses a desire to be worshipped. Which would be considered despotic and tyrannical if any human leader expected that of his subjects.

God did not command that because of a need that he has. He commanded that because of a need that we have - as with all the other commands. A violation of any of the commandments will tend toward the destruction of human life. If we elevate any created thing to the place of God or if we worship a God of our own construction then this will tend toward the destruction of ourselves and humanity. God does not need to be worshipped. Rather, we need to worship the true God rather than an idol.