Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[sovereigngrace]

Strong's shows the specific definition that applies as:

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation​

Perhaps your disdain for the preterist theology is preventing you from recognizing that?

You are cherry-picking what suits your Preterist bias, and missing the broader meaning.

 

[claninja]

You know that I believe the great tribulation in Matthew 24 is past. Please see the intro to the Op. I don't struggle that the result of their rejection was AD70.

Ok, now I am struggling to understand you. Can you please simply answer when do you believe the wicked tenants were destroyed for killing the vineyard owner's servants and son?

Well that is encouraging.

mkgal previously stated (and I found it troubling):

I would absolutely agree mkgal in regards to the Ezekiel temple.

I believe the ezekiel temple is a parable/vision/dream that points to new covenant and body of Christ.

thus if it is where his throne is (heaven) and where is foot stool is (earth), where he dwells with his people forever, then it either is a present reality (believers on earth and in heaven) or is not yet a reality (believers on earth, no believers in heaven).

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[David Kent]

Maybe you are just looking at it all wrong. He could have meant that these things would soon begin to take place starting way back then, which can also include events far into the future. It would basically mean one thing keeps leading to another until all things are ultimately finished. Which then might comprise of 2000 years or more from start to finish.

Absolutely. The letters to the seven churches are a dual prophecy. 19 Write therefore the things which thou sawest, and the things which are, and the things which shall come to pass hereafter;
It covers the same period as the rest of the book, the whole period of church history. The things that are and the things that are hereafter

• Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[claninja]

You are cherry-picking what suits your Preterist bias, and missing the broader meaning.

Wait a minute, you're accusing mgkal of cherry picking? that's the pot calling the kettle black.

You are cherry picking genea in Thayer's point 2b, while ignoring that thayer has genea mean literal generation and not race in point 3 in regards to the very verse in discussion: matthew 24:34.

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ok, now I am struggling to understand you. Can you please simply answer when do you believe the wicked tenants were destroyed for killing the vineyard owner's servants and son?

There are two parts to the parable. There are the wicked husbandmen that represent apostate Judaism. There are the righteous husbandmen that represent the New Testament Church. I believe the parable symbolically links the judgment of the wicked servants to the great tribulation in AD70. My initial response was focused on the giving of the kingdom to the NT Church.

I would absolutely agree mkgal in regards to the Ezekiel temple.

I believe the ezekiel temple is a parable/vision/dream that points to new covenant and body of Christ.

thus if it is where his throne is (heaven) and where is foot stool is (earth), where he dwells with his people forever, then it either is a present reality (believers on earth and in heaven) or is not yet a reality (believers on earth, no believers in heaven).

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

LOL. You are becoming political now. I am not talking about Ezekiel 43:6-7 and 2 corinthians 6:16, i am talking about 1 Peter 3:18.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Wait a minute, you're accusing mgkal of cherry picking? that's the pot calling the kettle black.

You are cherry picking genea in Thayer's point 2b, while ignoring that thayer has genea mean literal generation and not race in point 3 in regards to the very verse in discussion: matthew 24:34.

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

I believe it is the best rendering. Of course it totally dismantles Preterism. So, I understand your anger.

 

[claninja]

There are two parts to the parable. There are the wicked husbandmen that represent apostate Judaism. There are the righteous husbandmen that represent the New Testament Church. I believe the parable symbolically links the judgment of the wicked servants to the great tribulation in AD70. My initial response was focused on the giving of the kingdom to the NT Church.

Wait, so then you are in agreement that the wicked tenants were destroyed in 70AD? wonderful. Then you are in agreement with scripture that judgment occurs at the COMING of the vineyard owner as specifically stated in the parable?

Matthew 21:39-40 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

LOL. You are becoming political now. I am not talking about Ezekiel 43:6-7 and 2 corinthians 6:16, i am talking about 1 Peter 3:18.

Right and the mkgal quote you provided mentioned ezekiel 43:6-7, that's what I was responding to.

 

[claninja]

I believe it is the best rendering. Of course it totally dismantles Preterism. So, I understand your anger.

No anger here, just baffled at the avoidance to provide any supporting evidence for your position, and the hypocritical name calling of mkgal as a cherry picker.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Wait, so then you are in agreement that the wicked tenants were destroyed in 70AD? wonderful. Then you are in agreement with scripture that judgment occurs at the COMING of the vineyard owner as specifically stated in the parable?



Matthew 21:39-40 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”



Right and the mkgal quote you provided mentioned ezekiel 43:6-7, that's what I was responding to.

The judgment started at the cross, continued through AD70 and will ultimately be finalized at the coming of Christ.

 

[David Kent]

As being somewhat of a futurist on my part, I'm still at least willing to compromise about this. So why aren't you willing to? Why would John spend an entire 22 chapters focusing on just a small section of time in the first century?

As a futurist, why would John spend three chapters of the things that were, and the rest on the things at the end of time? And why omitting the whole period of church history and its trials, struggles and tribulations? Preterists and futurists are alike in that matter. The Church, the body of Christ, is God's master plan.

 

[David Kent]

I make Christ the centerpoint. It's just that you fixate on our differing beliefs about the significance/lack of significance about the Coming of the Son of Man in 70 AD.

It was the Father who was to come and take the vineyard and give it to another.

 

[David Kent]

LOL. I have changed: I have become a stronger opponent of Partial Preterism. Idealists are strictly Partial Historists and Partial Futurists!

I am an historicist. I hope when I have time to start a thread on that. At the moment,it takes all my time reading through this thread and I am only on p27 of 28 and it is now nearly 1 am and I am going to retire for the night
Bon nuit

 

[claninja]

The judgment started at the cross, continued through AD70 and will ultimately be finalized at the coming of Christ.

no disagreement that judgment began at the cross. But the destruction of the wicked tenants for killing the servants and son of the vineyards owner specifically took place in 66-70ad, with which you appear to agree, no?

 

[Christian Gedge]

no disagreement that judgment began at the cross. But the destruction of the wicked tenants for killing the servants and son of the vineyards owner specifically took place in 66-70ad, with which you appear to agree, no?

You, me and Mkgal agree on so much! It hurts me to see how this thread has divided friends. But SG's "The judgment started at the cross, continued through AD70 and will ultimately be finalized at the coming of Christ" is correct. An obvious example of this is how Hadrian finished the job started by Titus, and deported a greater number of Jews in AD 135! This happened a full three generations after Jesus' prophecy. Ask any Jew about the history of the Diaspora. They became stateless in AD 135 - not AD 70.

Another point in Daniels prophecy is too often overlooked. In verse 26 he says "desolations" (plural) have been decreed. So, the text supports a Historicist interpretation better than a Preterist one. These "desolations" have indeed been the story of Jerusalem over the centuries, and will continue to be so until the times allocated to the Gentiles are completed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

no disagreement that judgment began at the cross. But the destruction of the wicked tenants for killing the servants and son of the vineyards owner specifically took place in 66-70ad, with which you appear to agree, no?

It is an ongoing judgment. It is not limited to AD70.

 

[mkgal1]

mkgal previously stated (and I found it troubling):

You misunderstood me. I've not posted that.

 

[mkgal1]

It hurts me to see how this thread has divided friends

Any disagreement between us, I don't see as division

 

[mkgal1]

But SG's "The judgment started at the cross, continued through AD70 and will ultimately be finalized at the coming of Christ" is correct.

If SG had posted it that way - and not rail against the preterist framework that the destruction of ancient Jerusalem was the Coming if the Son of Man - then I'd have NO opposition. IOW - I could agree with that statement.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You misunderstood me. I've not posted that.

My apologies. It was actually claninja that stated that:

When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Ok, now I am struggling to understand you. Can you please simply answer when do you believe the wicked tenants were destroyed for killing the vineyard owner's servants and son?



I would absolutely agree mkgal in regards to the Ezekiel temple.

I believe the ezekiel temple is a parable/vision/dream that points to new covenant and body of Christ.

thus if it is where his throne is (heaven) and where is foot stool is (earth), where he dwells with his people forever, then it either is a present reality (believers on earth and in heaven) or is not yet a reality (believers on earth, no believers in heaven).

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You actually said the opposite in a previous discussion. I misdirected this to mkgal:

When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?