Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[claninja]

It is an ongoing judgment. It is not limited to AD70.

I have no disagreement with an ongoing judgement.

but when we’re the wicked tenants destroyed? It seems you agree that their destruction took place during the great tribulation of around 66-70ad, no?

 

[claninja]

You actually said the opposite in a previous discussion. I misdirected this to mkgal:

When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

Which part is opposite, specifically?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have no disagreement with an ongoing judgement.

but when we’re the wicked tenants destroyed? It seems you agree that their destruction took place during the great tribulation of around 66-70ad, no?

That was part of it. The cross started it. The Father intervened immediately with the earthquake and the ripping of the curtain in two. The ultimate judgment fulfilment will be when He banishes them to the lake of fire on judgment day.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Which part is opposite, specifically?

I asked you:

"Ok then. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

Is this past or future?"

You replied:

Well as I am not living in a resurrected immortal body as I type this, I am pretty sure its still future for me.

But you previously told me on another thread:

I typically hold the resurrection of the just and unjust to have occurred around the time of the destruction of the Jerusalem.

I certainly hope you have stepped back from you more Full Preterist position previously.

 

[claninja]

That was part of it. The cross started it. The Father intervened immediately with the earthquake and the ripping of the curtain in two. The ultimate judgment fulfilment will be when He banishes them to the lake of fire on judgment day.

Right, but the parable of the wicked tenants doesn't talk about the other ongoing judgments. Its parallel parable of the wedding feast, however, does talk about more than one judgment.

I'm assuming we can agree The first judgment is in regards to the 66-70, correct?
The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

The next judgment has to do with those not wearing the garments provided by the King
Matthew 22:13 hen the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

So I agree that there is ongoing judgment that started at the cross (John 12:31) and continues through today.

So back to the parable of the wicked tenants, which only mentions one judgment: the destruction of the wicked tenants, It appears we are in agreement then that this specific judgment is in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, correct?

Matthew 21:40-41 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

I asked you:

"Ok then. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

Is this past or future?"

You replied:

Corrrect, I did respond that "MY" resurrection is still future, as I am not currently in "MY" immortal resurrected body as I type this.

But you previously told me on another thread:

Correct, I do believe the resurrection of the Just and Unjust occurred around the time of the great tribulation as stated in Daniel 12

Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Thus, I hold from that point on that believers go home to be with the Lord upon physical death, while non believers don't.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

I certainly hope you have stepped back from you more Full Preterist position previously.

I hold to the common teaching, especially espoused by Amillennialism, that we go home to be to the Father upon physical death. While many believe that this is the "soul" going to heaven to be with the Father, I just call it what scripture defines it as: the resurrection; hen the natural body of a believer is sown, it is raised in a Spiritual body.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

The teaching of going to heaven upon death is taught by R.C sproul, a partial preterist Amil

R. C. Sproul (1939–2017)

" I am not afraid of death. I believe that death for the Christian is a glorious transition to heaven."

"You can grieve for me the week before I die, if I’m scared and hurting, but when I gasp that last fleeting breath and my immortal soul flees to heaven, I’m going to be jumping over fire hydrants down the golden streets, and my biggest concern, if I have any, will be my wife back here grieving"

"When we close our eyes in death, we do not cease to be alive; rather, we experience a continuation of personal consciousness."

Thus the belief that we go to heaven upon death is not solely a full preterist position, but also a partial preterist and amil position, and even sometimes a dispy/premil position.



Do you believe in soul sleep or that the that the believer goes to heaven upon physical death?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Right, but the parable of the wicked tenants doesn't talk about the other ongoing judgments. Its parallel parable of the wedding feast, however, does talk about more than one judgment.

I'm assuming we can agree The first judgment is in regards to the 66-70, correct?
The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

The next judgment has to do with those not wearing the garments provided by the King
Matthew 22:13 hen the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

So I agree that there is ongoing judgment that started at the cross (John 12:31) and continues through today.

So back to the parable of the wicked tenants, which only mentions one judgment: the destruction of the wicked tenants, It appears we are in agreement then that this specific judgment is in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, correct?

Matthew 21:40-41 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

I have told you what their judgment was.

Corrrect, I did respond that "MY" resurrection is still future, as I am not currently in "MY" immortal resurrected body as I type this.

Correct, I do believe the resurrection of the Just and Unjust occurred around the time of the great tribulation as stated in Daniel 12

Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Thus, I hold from that point on that believers go home to be with the Lord upon physical death, while non believers don't.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”



I hold to the common teaching, especially espoused by Amillennialism, that we go home to be to the Father upon physical death. While many believe that this is the "soul" going to heaven to be with the Father, I just call it what scripture defines it as: the resurrection; hen the natural body of a believer is sown, it is raised in a Spiritual body.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

The teaching of going to heaven upon death is taught by R.C sproul, a partial preterist Amil

R. C. Sproul (1939–2017)

" I am not afraid of death. I believe that death for the Christian is a glorious transition to heaven."

"You can grieve for me the week before I die, if I’m scared and hurting, but when I gasp that last fleeting breath and my immortal soul flees to heaven, I’m going to be jumping over fire hydrants down the golden streets, and my biggest concern, if I have any, will be my wife back here grieving"

"When we close our eyes in death, we do not cease to be alive; rather, we experience a continuation of personal consciousness."

Thus the belief that we go to heaven upon death is not solely a full preterist position, but also a partial preterist and amil position, and even sometimes a dispy/premil position.



Do you believe in soul sleep or that the that the believer goes to heaven upon physical death?

Where does Sproul say the just and the unjust were raised in AD70?

Yes, I believe the elect ascend to heaven upon death.

How were the unjust resurrected in AD70?

 

[David Kent]

I have no disagreement with an ongoing judgement.

but when we’re the wicked tenants destroyed? It seems you agree that their destruction took place during the great tribulation of around 66-70ad, no?

The kingdom was taken from them and given to another in AD70. They were goiven an eviction notice in M\atthew 21

 

[claninja]

You, me and Mkgal agree on so much! It hurts me to see how this thread has divided friends.

I appreciate the kind words brother. Sometimes brothers and sisters do differ on things, but at the end of the day, we are still family in Christ , and still find common ground in the most important part: Christ, the son of God, was sent to die for us, so that we may live in Him to the Glory of the Father

While SG and I differ on certain topics, I still appreciate these conversations, as they help me learn. You can only learn so much from listening to a person who agrees with you on 100% of everything. But when you can have a dialogue that provides sound evidence from both sides, I believe that is fruitful. especially for the audience.

SG's "The judgment started at the cross, continued through AD70 and will ultimately be finalized at the coming of Christ" is correct. An obvious example of this is how Hadrian finished the job started by Titus, and deported a greater number of Jews in AD 135! This happened a full three generations after Jesus' prophecy. Ask any Jew about the history of the Diaspora. They became stateless in AD 135 - not AD 70.

Another point in Daniels prophecy is too often overlooked. In verse 26 he says "desolations" (plural) have been decreed. So, the text supports a Historicist interpretation better than a Preterist one. These "desolations" have indeed been the story of Jerusalem over the centuries, and will continue to be so until the times allocated to the Gentiles are completed.

No disagreement here that Judgment started at the cross (John 12:31) and continues through today. No disagreement that the city of Jerusalem would face multiple desolations (this evident from history).

But SG and I are specifically talking about the destruction of the wicked tenants, which was the result of murdering the prophets and the son of God and not recognizing the time of their visitation as clearly stated in scripture.

The parable of the wicked tenants has the destruction of the wicked tenants (66-70ad) as a result of murdering the servants and son of the vineyard owner
Matthew 21:38-41 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

The parable of the wedding feast has the king sending an army to destroy the originally invited wedding guests for murdering his servants
Matthew 22:4-7 Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

Jesus specifically charges the pharisees with ALL the righteous blood shed, and that "this generation" would be charged for that.
Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus specifically states that the generation in front of him would be leveled to the ground for not recognizing the time of God's visitation
Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.d ”

So, per SG and I's converation, the specific judgment of of the wicked tenants and their destruction occurred in 66-70ad, and it appears that SG agrees on this.

Jesus calls this specific judgment on the wicked tenants for murdering His servants and Son, the COMING of the vineyard owner. Thus partial preterists hold that the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, was a coming judgment of Christ on Israel.

Matthew 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants

 

[David Kent]

The main reason we should avoid preterism is that it relies on an early date for Revelation, when pratically all the early histories say that it was written in about AD 96.

Another reason was it was probably first taught by a Jesuit Alcasar

PRETERISM

Another counter-interpretation to the Historicism held by Protestantism was proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):

• Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
• Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
• Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 A.D.), and judgment.
• Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.

Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the church ages or to the papacy. That his interpretation differed so greatly from that put forth by Francisco Ribera or Cardinal Bellarmine,(futurist teaching Jesuits) mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the reformers.

 

[claninja]

I have told you what their judgment was.

Good, then we are in agreement then that the vineyard owner CAME in 66-70ad to destroy the wicked tenants?

Matthew 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants

Where does Sproul say the just and the unjust were raised in AD70?

He doesn't, but he does teach that people go to heaven upon death.

While I find the teaching of going to heaven prior to the resurrection as inconsistent and contradictory with NT teachings, if fellow brothers and sisters agree that we go to heaven upon death, then I don't see much to argue about.

Yes, I believe the elect ascend to heaven upon death.

Great, we are in agreement. So our argument can partially relate to the age old argument "to-may-toe"/"to-mah-toe". I believe going to heaven upon physical death is the resurrection, you believe it is just the soul going to heaven. Either way we both believe that believers go to heaven upon death, we just disagree on what to call it.

How were the unjust resurrected in AD70?

Unto everlasting contempt (daniel 12)
unto eternal punishment (matthew 25)

 

[claninja]

The kingdom was taken from them and given to another in AD70. They were goiven an eviction notice in M\atthew 21

Absolutely agree. So you are in agreement then that the saints were given the kingdom in 66-70ad?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, per SG and I's converation, the specific judgment of of the wicked tenants and their destruction occurred in 66-70ad, and it appears that SG agrees on this.

Jesus calls this specific judgment on the wicked tenants for murdering His servants and Son, the COMING of the vineyard owner. Thus partial preterists hold that the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, was a coming judgment of Christ on Israel.

Matthew 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants

I told you that that was only part of it. But it started at the cross, continued through AD70, after that in some notable judgments (as CG has mentioned), through to today, and will culminate on their eternal destruction on judgment day.

 

[claninja]

The main reason we should avoid preterism is that it relies on an early date for Revelation, which pratically all the early histories say that it was written in about AD 96.

Another reason was it was probably first taught by a Jesuit Alcasar

PRETERISM

Another counter-interpretation to the Historicism held by Protestantism was proposed by the Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar):

• Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
• Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church.
• Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 A.D.), and judgment.
• Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church.

Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the church ages or to the papacy. That his interpretation differed so greatly from that put forth by Francisco Ribera or Cardinal Bellarmine,(futurist teaching) mattered little. Catholicism, the supposedly divine and infallible interpreter of scripture, was presenting two vastly different and quite incompatible interpretations of prophecy in a desperate effort to counter the claims of the reformers.

There is no absolute proof that revelation was written after 70ad, nor is there absolute proof that revelation was written prior to 70ad. There is evidence for both cases. Typically, one's eschatological belief will bias them to either post or prior, (with the exception of the several futurists I've come across over the years that believe revelation was written prior to 70ad).

I was raised as a futurist, but when presented with the evidence from both sides, external and especially internal, it was hard not accept revelation as written prior to 70ad.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Good, then we are in agreement then that the vineyard owner CAME in 66-70ad to destroy the wicked tenants?

Matthew 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants

No! Please stop putting words in my mouth. Re-read what I said. The judgment on the nation continues from the cross to the second coming!

He doesn't, but he does teach that people go to heaven upon death.

While I find the teaching of going to heaven prior to the resurrection as inconsistent and contradictory with NT teachings, if fellow brothers and sisters agree that we go to heaven upon death, then I don't see much to argue about.

Exactly. He is a mild and normal Partial Preterist.

Great, we are in agreement. So our argument can partially relate to the age old argument "to-may-toe"/"to-mah-toe". I believe going to heaven upon physical death is the resurrection, you believe it is just the soul going to heaven. Either way we both believe that believers go to heaven upon death, we just disagree on what to call it.

So, the soul going to heaven is the only resurrection awaiting you? You do not believe in a physical resurrection for your body on the final day in a given event where all will rise out of the grave when Jesus literally, physically and visibly returns?

Unto everlasting contempt (daniel 12)
unto eternal punishment (matthew 25)

Where the unjust raised up physically or only their soul then? Do they have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes at the second coming?

 

[claninja]

I told you that that was only part of it. But it started at the cross, continued through AD70, after that in some notable judgments (as CG has mentioned), through to today, and will culminate on their eternal destruction on judgment day.

Again, no disgareement that judgment started at the cross and continued on after, but we are specifically talking about the parable of the wicked tenants who killed the servant and son. And specifically the destruction of the wicked tenants who killed the servants and son.

This specific parable only mentions one judgment: the destruction of the wicked tenants, which you agreed, took place in 66-70ad.

And what does Jesus specifically call this judgment?

A COMING of the vineyard owner

Matthew 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants

This coming in judgment is similar to that of the OT

1.) God came down from heaven to defeat David's enemies
2 samuel 22:10 He bowed the heavens and came down;thick darkness was under his feet.

2.) God came down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 This is the burden against Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud; He is coming to Egypt.

3.) God came down from heaven to judge Samaria
Micah 1:3 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There is no absolute proof that revelation was written after 70ad, nor is there absolute proof that revelation was written prior to 70ad. There is evidence for both cases. Typically, one's eschatological belief will bias them to either post or prior, (with the exception of the several futurists I've come across over the years that believe revelation was written prior to 70ad).

I was raised as a futurist, but when presented with the evidence from both sides, external and especially internal, it was hard not accept revelation as written prior to 70ad.

Many of us have come to the opposite conclusion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Again, no disgareement that judgment started at the cross and continued on after, but we are specifically talking about the parable of the wicked tenants who killed the servant and son. And specifically the destruction of the wicked tenants who killed the servants and son.

This specific parable only mentions one judgment: the destruction of the wicked tenants, which you agreed, took place in 66-70ad.

And what does Jesus specifically call this judgment?

A COMING of the vineyard owner

Matthew 21:40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard COMES, what will he do to those tenants

This coming in judgment is similar to that of the OT

1.) God came down from heaven to defeat David's enemies
2 samuel 22:10 He bowed the heavens and came down;thick darkness was under his feet.

2.) God came down from heaven to judge Egypt
Isaiah 19:1 This is the burden against Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud; He is coming to Egypt.

3.) God came down from heaven to judge Samaria
Micah 1:3 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread
on the high places of the earth.

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus! The Father intervened immediately with the earthquake and the ripping of the curtain in two. This was the start of the fulfilment! The culminating judgment fulfilment will be when He banishes them to the lake of fire on judgment day.

 

[claninja]

No! Please stop putting words in my mouth. Re-read what I said. It seems clear to everyone else. It continues from the cross to the second coming!

You can't separate the coming of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants, with the actual destruction of the wicked tenants.

That would be called cherry picking

Exactly. He is a mild and normal Partial Preterist.

Agreed

So, the soul going to heaven is the only resurrection awaiting you? You do not believe in a physical resurrection for your body on the final day in a given event where all will rise out of the grave when Jesus literally, physically and visibly returns?

I agree the resurrection is physical. I believe the natural body is sown and physically resurrected into a spiritual body as specifically stated by scripture.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Many of us have come to the opposite conclusion.

And many have not. Unbiased understanding based on current evidence shows that revelation cannot be proven without a shadow of a doubt to have been written before or after 70ad. Thus, your conclusion is simply one of eschatological bias.

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus! The Father intervened immediately with the earthquake and the ripping of the curtain in two. This was the start of the fulfilment! The culminating judgment fulfilment will be when He banishes them to the lake of fire on judgment day.

Jesus and the Father are one, are you a non trinitarian?

The parable is specifically about the destruction of the wicked tenants for killing the vineyard owner's servants and son. Why are you changing the context of the parable?

 

[sovereigngrace]

The kingdom was taken from them and given to another in AD70. They were goiven an eviction notice in M\atthew 21

I have to disagree with you on this. The judgment of Israel began immediately after the cross, with the ripping of the curtain in two. The NT Church began immediately after the cross also.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You can't separate the coming of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants, with the actual destruction of the wicked tenants.

That would be called cherry picking




Agreed



I agree the resurrection is physical. I believe the natural body is sown and physically resurrected into a spiritual body as specifically stated by scripture.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.



And many have not. Unbiased understanding based on current evidence shows that revelation cannot be proven without a shadow of a doubt to have been written before or after 70ad. Thus, your conclusion is simply one of eschatological bias.



Jesus and the Father are one, are you a non trinitarian?

The parable is specifically about the destruction of the wicked tenants for killing the vineyard owner's servants and son. Why are you changing the context of the parable?

I have relayed my position, and you are not going to change me. Your problem is: you are obsessed with the coming of Titus in AD70. That is all you see in the NT. This is both dangerous and erroneous. The rest of us who are not Full Preterists see Christ's past First Advent and future Second Advent as the center-point of history. This is the focus of Scripture!

Do you believe the dead in Christ have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes literally physically visibly in the future to remove sin, sinners, death, corruption and Satan?

Why do you keep avoiding the following?

Where the dead unjust raised up physically from the grave or only their souls in AD70? Do they have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes at the second coming?