Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[sovereigngrace]

You seem to be overshadowing His FIRST advent and everything that was fulfilled/accomplished then by His future return. IOW.....I believe you have the emphasis on the wrong syl-LA-ble. You seem to be putting off a lot of His glory for the future (when I believe more emphasis ought to be on His first advent).

It is you that is detracting from Christ and His victorious First Advent and His glorious Second Advent by your constant obsession with the coming of Titus in AD70. Most Amils are Christ-centered and recognize these 2 monumental events as the central events in history.

Past tense

In Hebrews 9:26, we learn, “now once in the end of the world hath he
appeared (phaneroo) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Presence tense

In Hebrews 9:24 we learn, “For Christ is not entered into the holy
places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into
heaven now to appear (emphanizo) in the presence of God for us.”

Future tense

In Hebrews 9:27-28 we learn, “And as it is appointed unto men once to
die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

This secret coming that Preterists speak often about is akin to the Pretrib rapture. But both are negated by clear Scripture that teaches that His appearing will be open and visible event.

Revelation 1:7. Speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid!. It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

 

[DavidPT]

What is more, Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

Revelation 22:3 tells us that there is coming a day where “there shall be no more curse.”

Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more sin on the new earth. You say there is sin on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more death on the new earth. You say there is death on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more pain on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more tears on the new earth. You say there is tears on the new earth.
Revelation 21&22 tells us that there is no more corruption on the new earth.

You have to reject all this in order to sustain Premil!

Let's look at something here then. But from the perspective of Isaiah 65 since the new heavens and new earth in that chapter is the same new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The text says this---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

With that in mind, why is the following occurring during this same new heavens and new earth age?

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Let's look at these together like this.

and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


How can the latter from Isaiah 66 not involve the former? But I thought the text in Isaiah 65:17 indicated that the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. It looks like to me in Isaiah 66:24 that something from the former is still being remembered, thus still coming to mind.

Is there then a contradiction here? Or is it perhaps that something is not being fully understood correctly here?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are you meaning in regards to Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? If yes then you thought wrong. Maybe you think there is no correlation, but that doesn't mean I, too, think there is no correlation. Of course there is a correlation, and the timing of Zechariah 14:16-19 undeniably proves it.

Please list the correlation. I don't see it. The Premil proof-texts all seem to contradict each other. None of them correlate with Rev 20. That is why it is impossible to get Premils to contrast the two.

Joel 3 tells us: “Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness" (vv 13-19).

In keeping with the Amil understanding of this reading, Egypt continued to exist after the First Advent. Those within that ancient nation that refuse to yield to Christ will one join that rebellion throng throughout time that are condemned at the final judgment. It should be noted, Jerusalem will be holy and no strangers will pass through her anymore. The word interpreted “strangers” (zuwr) means foreigner or profane. Yet the Premil understanding of Jerusalem is quite the contrary. It sees countless rebellious strangers visiting it from the nations will go from year to year.

Ezekiel 44:9 says, “Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.”

It is amazing how Premillennialists can locate this temple with the re-introduction of all the old covenant practices and stipulations on the new earth after Christ’s return. If this is a literal description of a rebuilt future earthly temple where Christ will reign during a supposed future millennium, why is the Lord forbidding anyone that is not physically circumcised to enter His temple? Especially after Paul taught us in the New Testament that physical circumcision had been done away with?

If we apply the Premil understanding of Zechariah 14 to Joel 3 then we have another major conflict. Zechariah 14 has countless strangers (in fact “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem”) coming up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. In fact, Zechariah 14:16-19 explains, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Whatever way you look at the Premil proof-texts contradict each other and don't correlate. That is why I abandoned it in 2000.

Even Isaiah 66:22-23, which they wrongly relate to a supposed future millennium contradicts their own interpretation. It says, “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”

Whatever way you look at the Premil proof-texts contradict each other and don't correlate. That is why I abandoned it in 2000.

Just like many Bible names change over the centuries, the Edomites refer to part of Jordan. Just because the 12 tribes are no longer known doesn’t negate the fact that their offspring still exist.

Egypt and Edom will both be desolate. They will be destroyed at the Lord's return. The Premil contention reference Zechariah 14 requires them to resurrect what God eliminates. They usher Egypt along with every other Christ-hating nation into their millennium. One wonders who if anyone will be destroyed at Christ's Coming with this mode of interpretation. This is another reason why their location of Zechariah 14 does not fit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Let's look at something here then. But from the perspective of Isaiah 65 since the new heavens and new earth in that chapter is the same new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The text says this---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

With that in mind, why is the following occurring during this same new heavens and new earth age?

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Let's look at these together like this.

and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


How can the latter from Isaiah 66 not involve the former? But I thought the text in Isaiah 65:17 indicated that the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. It looks like to me in Isaiah 66:24 that something from the former is still being remembered, thus still coming to mind.

Is there then a contradiction here? Or is it perhaps that something is not being fully understood correctly here?

The Old Testament prophet Isaiah may have had an impaired insight into the eternal state, he may not have had the more vivid and polished detail of the fuller NT revelation, but he definitely makes a comparison between the eternal bliss and blessing of the elect to the eternal judgment and punishment of the wicked in eternity.

 

[mkgal1]

You are mixing up our spiritual standing before God as believers to the reality of the state of our current evil age we live in.

We still live in "this age." All the biblical qualities attributed to it still pertain today. The coming of Titus did not change that one little bit. "This age” is current, corrupt and temporal and "the age to come” is impending, perfect and eternal.

And, in your beliefs, you are looking with material eyes on things of this earth and missing the spiritual things (like His heavenly sanctuary; His righteousness He ushered into this world; and His kingdom on earth in the hearts of His people).

If you are believing we are still in "this present evil age" - then your beliefs have you waiting for the Messiah to come and fulfill what was promised by the prophets. ISTM that you'd be joining with others that have placed a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy. We had a great thread going on that a while back....here----->Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
That would also mean that you'd still be waiting for your salvation to be complete (as that was part of the "age to come" - to bring in everlasting righteousness).

However, I'm of the belief that Christ Jesus completed all that Daniel had prophesied about Him - and that we are in the age of "everlasting righteousness" with Christ as our eternal High Priest.....and that the prophecy has been "sealed up" (fulfilled). The most Holy place - the True Holy of Holies - has been anointed (I believe) in the heavenly realm (fulfilling Ez 40 - 48).

 

[mkgal1]

In my view Jerusalem here is meaning the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth. Assuming this might be correct, this alone clearly shows that there are nations existing outside of the city, the fact these have to come up to the city prove they do not live inside of the city.

I agree with you. Another thing to consider is that there is evil "outside the city gates" - so it can't be that evil is eradicated (it's just that it's "outside the city gates").

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.​

 

[mkgal1]

Does not---in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up----equal---Heaven and earth shall pass away?

I believe you're making the right connection.....yes.

 

[DavidPT]

Please list the correlation. I don't see it. The Premil proof-texts all seem to contradict each other. None of them correlate with Rev 20. That is why it is impossible to get Premils to contrast the two.

Joel 3 tells us: “Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness" (vv 13-19).

In keeping with the Amil understanding of this reading, Egypt continued to exist after the First Advent. Those within that ancient nation that refuse to yield to Christ will one join that rebellion throng throughout time that are condemned at the final judgment. It should be noted, Jerusalem will be holy and no strangers will pass through her anymore. The word interpreted “strangers” (zuwr) means foreigner or profane. Yet the Premil understanding of Jerusalem is quite the contrary. It sees countless rebellious strangers visiting it from the nations will go from year to year.

Ezekiel 44:9 says, “Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.”

It is amazing how Premillennialists can locate this temple with the re-introduction of all the old covenant practices and stipulations on the new earth after Christ’s return. If this is a literal description of a rebuilt future earthly temple where Christ will reign during a supposed future millennium, why is the Lord forbidding anyone that is not physically circumcised to enter His temple? Especially after Paul taught us in the New Testament that physical circumcision had been done away with?

If we apply the Premil understanding of Zechariah 14 to Joel 3 then we have another major conflict. Zechariah 14 has countless strangers (in fact “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem”) coming up to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. In fact, Zechariah 14:16-19 explains, “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Whatever way you look at the Premil proof-texts contradict each other and don't correlate. That is why I abandoned it in 2000.

Even Isaiah 66:22-23, which they wrongly relate to a supposed future millennium contradicts their own interpretation. It says, “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”

Whatever way you look at the Premil proof-texts contradict each other and don't correlate. That is why I abandoned it in 2000.

Just like many Bible names change over the centuries, the Edomites refer to part of Jordan. Just because the 12 tribes are no longer known doesn’t negate the fact that their offspring still exist.

Egypt and Edom will both be desolate. They will be destroyed at the Lord's return. The Premil contention reference Zechariah 14 requires them to resurrect what God eliminates. They usher Egypt along with every other Christ-hating nation into their millennium. One wonders who if anyone will be destroyed at Christ's Coming with this mode of interpretation. This is another reason why their location of Zechariah 14 does not fit.

I am aware of your arguments here, since I have discussed these same things with other Amils in the past. I admit they are good arguments. So if Zechariah 14:16-19 can't fit after the 2nd coming according to Joel 3:19, where do you suggest it fits then? But before you answer that, assuming you do, let me go this route first, since this would be one of many reasons I have concluded Zechariah 14:16-19 has to be post the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,


What I have underlined in Jude 1:14, do you agree that is meaning the 2nd coming?

And what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5, do you agree that it is referring to the same event as what I have underlined in Jude 1:14? Assuming for some reason or another that you disagree these are referring to the same event, what event do you then think explains what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5, if not the 2nd coming?


Now assuming you agree both passages are referring to the same event, and that you agree this event is meaning the 2nd coming, how is it possible to place what is recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19 prior to what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5 rather than after? What does the text indicate is the reason for the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee? Doesn't it have anything to do with Zechariah 14:3?

Doesn't it have anything to do with Zechariah 14:12? Speaking of that verse, not everyone living in the nations that came against Jerusalem fought against Jerusalem, otherwise they would have also ended up like these in verse 12. Zechariah 14:16-19 proves that fact since the timing of that has to be meaning post the timing of verse 12.


Wanted to add the following as well.

Zechariah 14 involves prophecy. Prophecies obviously involve chronology. So getting the chronology correct first makes all the difference in the world as to how one should interpret the prophecies. So if the chronology in Zechariah 14 shows that verses 16-19 have to chronologically follow this event---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee---what has to be determined first then, what event is---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee---referring to. And once that is determined, one can then correctly establish the timeframe of verses 16-19.


Some might argue that chronology is irrelevant when coming to prophecies. But how can it be irrelavant though? Seriously.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And, in your beliefs, you are looking with material eyes on things of this earth and missing the spiritual things (like His heavenly sanctuary; His righteousness He ushered into this world; and His kingdom on earth in the hearts of His people).

If you are believing we are still in "this present evil age" - then your beliefs have you waiting for the Messiah to come and fulfill what was promised by the prophets. ISTM that you'd be joining with others that have placed a gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy. We had a great thread going on that a while back....here----->Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?
That would also mean that you'd still be waiting for your salvation to be complete (as that was part of the "age to come" - to bring in everlasting righteousness).

However, I'm of the belief that Christ Jesus completed all that Daniel had prophesied about Him - and that we are in the age of "everlasting righteousness" with Christ as our eternal High Priest.....and that the prophecy has been "sealed up" (fulfilled). The most Holy place - the True Holy of Holies - has been anointed (I believe) in the heavenly realm (fulfilling Ez 40 - 48).

Most Bible student rightly believe that Christ paid the full penalty for sin on the cross and will secure the final aspect of redemption when He comes - the redemption of our bodies. You have Titus ushering in the day of redemption, but the Bible has Jesus. It is insane to insist that the curse has been lifted, this evil age has gone, sin has disappeared, marriage is no more and death is finished. You are living in denial. This is what false doctrine produces. This simply exposes the Partial Preterist doctrine as untenable.

I previously asked you: "When is the day of redemption?"

You replied:

I believe His redemption was complete in 70 AD. He came in both judgement and salvation at the destruction of the old religious system.

I prefer Jesus redemption to Titus'. 1Co 1:30 tells us: "Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

He redeemed us through the cross-work; He will redeem our bodies when He comes at the end of the age at His glorious climactic coming.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

This is speaking of “the bondage of corruption” that will lifted at Christ coming, when our bodies are finally redeemed at the resurrection (“the redemption of our body”). This is the day of redemption!

The fate of the earth has always been tied up with the fate of man. When man fell then all creation experienced the consequences and fell with him. The curse upon man and the earth arrived simultaneously. The curse upon both is lifted simultaneously.

This corresponds with what Jesus said in Luke 21:26-28, “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

This is shown to be the realization of the final aspect of redemption. No one with any credence could surely try and attribute this to AD70. Various clear and repeated Scripture prove when the day of redemption is.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

This has still not happened yet. Christians are still dying. Our bodies are still decaying. That is because sin has not been finally eliminated. That occurs when Jesus comes. The last enemy has not been defeated yet. But it will be defeated when Jesus comes.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28 says: “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the Second Coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that the regeneration of the creation occurs at the same time as the regeneration of elect man. The glorious eternal kingdom that the saints inherit at the Coming of Christ is pristine and perfect. It strictly forbids the wicked and all corruption. It declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

See the connect between the creature and whole creation.

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

 

[mkgal1]

What is more, Revelation 21:1-4 says, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

This is talking about the first corrupt earth being removed and replaced with a new perfect earth. The former corruption has been removed. Perfection has finally arrived. The New Jerusalem envelops the perfected earth. The former things have passed away. You paint it as more of the same. This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay.

"Heaven and earth" = God's covenant with His people......the agreement of how God dwells with His people.

The Old way was passing away during Jesus' ministry (the Old Covenant didn't bring eternal life and salvation - it merely temporarily covered sin).....the New Covenant brought eternal LIFE. In this New Covenant - NOTHING can separate us from God (not sin.....not death....NOTHING). That's reason to have HOPE, JOY, and perseverance through the suffering of this world.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[mkgal1]

I previously asked you: "When is the day of redemption?"

You replied:

I believe His redemption was complete in 70 AD. He came in both judgement and salvation at the destruction of the old religious system.​

I prefer Jesus redemption to Titus'. 1Co 1:30 tells us: "Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

Pay close attention to the word, "complete". As I've mentioned already, that's one of the problems with your list of many questions - there were, what I believe are, too strict of lines of delineation. There were MANY prophecies spoken of the Messianic ministry - and if He didn't fulfill them all - the prophets (and Jesus) would have been wrong. The process of atonement had specific steps - and I believe Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly. There was more to the process than just the Lamb being slain.

Either we are "under the Law" now or "heaven and earth" have passed away. I believe Jesus fulfilled ALL that was spoken of Him through the prophets (but don't get that twisted - I still believe in His future return....as He's 'reconciling all to Himself".....and that He continually "judges the just and the unjust" as an ongoing prophecy).

Luke 24:44 ~ He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

 

[mkgal1]

Also.....there are the prophecies of Messiah making it known to the other nations through His justice that He is righteous.....He is holy.....and He is powerful and just. He avenged for all the blood of His servants - all the way back to Abel's sacrifice/death in the judgement of Jerusalem.

Genesis 4:10 ~ He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.

Deuteronomy 32:43 ~ Rejoice, O heavens, with Him, and let all God's angels worship Him. Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; for He will avenge the blood of His children. He will take vengeance on His adversaries and repay those who hate Him; He will cleanse His land and His people."

Psalm 79:10 ~ Why should the nations ask, “Where is their God?” Before our eyes, make known among the nations Your vengeance for the bloodshed of Your servants.

Daniel 8:13 ~ Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”

Revelation 6:10 ~ And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

Revelation 19:2 ~ BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER."

Matthew 23:32-36 ~ Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
…Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? Because of this, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes. Some of them you will kill and will crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and will persecute from town to town; As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

​

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am aware of your arguments here, since I have discussed these same things with other Amils in the past. I admit they are good arguments. So if Zechariah 14:16-19 can't fit after the 2nd coming according to Joel 3:19, where do you suggest it fits then? But before you answer that, assuming you do, let me go this route first, since this would be one of many reasons I have concluded Zechariah 14:16-19 has to be post the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,

What I have underlined in Jude 1:14, do you agree that is meaning the 2nd coming?

And what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5, do you agree that it is referring to the same event as what I have underlined in Jude 1:14? Assuming for some reason or another that you disagree these are referring to the same event, what event do you then think explains what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5, if not the 2nd coming?

Now assuming you agree both passages are referring to the same event, and that you agree this event is meaning the 2nd coming, how is it possible to place what is recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19 prior to what I have underlined in Zechariah 14:5 rather than after? What does the text indicate is the reason for the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee? Doesn't it have anything to do with Zechariah 14:3?

Doesn't it have anything to do with Zechariah 14:12? Speaking of that verse, not everyone living in the nations that came against Jerusalem fought against Jerusalem, otherwise they would have also ended up like these in verse 12. Zechariah 14:16-19 proves that fact since the timing of that has to be meaning post the timing of verse 12.

Yes, I do agree that Jude 14 is talking about the second coming. But I do not relate it to Zechariah 14. If my own testimony is of any interest to you, when I abandon Premillennialism in 2000, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 were the final two chapters to fall before I changed. I tried to correlate the two of them the best I could, but I could see no similarity. So, I've been asking the question for 20 years now, and I have yet to get a Premillennialist that can answer it. I can only come to one conclusion, they see what I see. There is no connection whatsoever.

Zechariah 14 is a very difficult passage to understand. We do know that the old covenant prophets were looking forward through a glazed class to a new arrangement that they couldn't fully comprehend. They did not have the full revelation we have.

Zechariah was outlining some pivotal approaching events that would change the religious landscape forever. Of course, it was concentrated on the cross-work. But it also spoke about AD70. What you ask about, I believe, relates to Christ's ministry and rejection by the many and His reception by the few. I believe Zechariah was looking forward at times to the First Advent and at other times to AD70.

Zechariah 14:5 predicts, “ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”

Here, I believe, we see a reference to the earthly ministry of Christ and particularly His final betrayal. In Mark 14 we see an account of the arrest of Christ for crucifixion. Even those nearest and dearest to Him could not stand with Him at this dark hour. Verse 50 tells us: “And they all forsook him, and fled.”

Zechariah had previously alluded to this same thing in Zechariah 13:6-7, “And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

Matthew 26:31 says, “Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.”

Only a few remained faithful. He then returned to minister unto them for 40 days after His resurrection. After equipping them, they took the Gospel out to the nations.

While Calvary was the apex of the OT exprectation, AD70 was the awful result for the Jews.

During Christ’s earthly ministry He declared of Jerusalem, “Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us” (Luke 23:28-30).

Paul the Apostle outlines this fact, when speaking of the Jews and the impending wrath of God on the nation of Israel, in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”

 

[mkgal1]

Most Bible student rightly believe that Christ paid the full penalty for sin on the cross and will secure the final aspect of redemption when He comes - the redemption of our bodies. You have Titus ushering in the day of redemption, but the Bible has Jesus

No, you're misunderstanding me. I'm certainly NOT asserting that Titus has something to do with our redemption. What I AM saying is that, when God used men to destroy the Temple and ancient Jerusalem - He was doing much more than it just appears to the physical eye. He was fulfilling prophecy.

About the Day of Atonement:

THE DAY OF ATONEMENT

One day each year the High Priest would draw aside the Veil and enter the Holy of Holies to make atonement (Heb. Kafar) and cover the nations sins from the judgement of God and receive forgiveness. It took place on the 10th day of the 7th month, Tishri. By our calendar that would be around the end of September or early October.

It was a day of fasting in which no work could be done:

Lev 23:26-32 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God. For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your Sabbath."

Yom Kippur was for the priesthood, for the people, and for God's dwelling-place the tabernacle, which He said, 'is among them in the midst of their uncleanness:'

Lev 16:16 "So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

The purpose of the Day of Atonement was to re-direct God's anger for the sins of the past year and seek his favor in the one that lay ahead. It was the day on which the meaning of the sacrificial system reached its highest point. For in spite of all the daily, weekly, and monthly sacrifices that had been offered, there was still sin that was not fully atoned for, and on this special day all the people sought God for forgiveness. ~ The Day of Atonement​

At the Cross- Jesus fulfilled the Passover.......there was still more to complete....more to fulfill (which is alluded to in the passages that say things like "our salvation draws near" - Romans 13:11).

 

[DavidPT]

But it also spoke about AD70.

Nowhere in that chapter does it speak of 70 AD. That is ludicrous. That's your first mistake, that being one of the reasons why you are not correctly interpreting Zechariah 14 to begin with.


Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The text says all nations. The Romans were not all nations. The text also says this---and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. But in 70 AD the city was destroyed. How does that equal---and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

If verse 2 is meaning 70 AD, verse 3 needs to be understood like such. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against the Romans, as when he fought in the day of battle. Yet no such thing ever occurred in 70 AD. In 70 AD the Lord was not fighting on behalf of the Jews that ended up slaughtered. He instead allowed this to happen. No way then can 70 AD have a thing to do with anything in Zechariah 14. To insist it does is to throw common sense out the window altogether.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Pay close attention to the word, "complete". As I've mentioned already, that's one of the problems with your list of many questions - there were, what I believe are, too strict of lines of delineation. There were MANY prophecies spoken of the Messianic ministry - and if He didn't fulfill them all - the prophets (and Jesus) would have been wrong. The process of atonement had specific steps - and I believe Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly. There was more to the process than just the Lamb being slain.

Either we are "under the Law" now or "heaven and earth" have passed away. I believe Jesus fulfilled ALL that was spoken of Him through the prophets (but don't get that twisted - I still believe in His future return....as He's 'reconciling all to Himself".....and that He continually "judges the just and the unjust" as an ongoing prophecy).

Luke 24:44 ~ He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

What has "heaven and earth" to do with being "under the Law"? You are forcing your doctrinal scheme on the sacred text, and it does not fit. It is law and grace that should be contrasted or the old covenant and the new covenant. That is what changed at the cross.

Because of your unhealthy fixation with 70AD and the coming of Titus, you fail to see that "the new heavens and new earth" and the perfect state are still to come. What Jesus is saying here is that everything that has been predicted to occur within "time" will occur until "eternity" arrives at the climatic coming of Christ, that sees the introduction of "the new heavens and new earth."

The law is still active, but can never save. It is a signpost to point us to Christ. It only serves to expose sin and condemn the wicked. 1 Timothy 1:8: “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient.”

Whilst the law is still holy, good and moral, its prime purpose for the believer is that it points them to Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:24-29 confirms: “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

Why? Because the true believer knows he cannot fulfil the law. He has resigned himself to that upon salvation. He has placed his trust in Christ – who alone was able to fulfil the law. The believer’s substitute has perfectly fulfilled the law thus securing his eternal salvation. That is why it is all of faith.

Romans 10:4 says: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

He lived the life we could never live. He died the death we could never die. We are justified by simple faith in the perfect law-fulfiller, not by keeping the works of the law - which no man could do.

The introduction of "the age to come" and the perfect "new heavens and new earth" at Christ's climactic return sees the final eradication of the curse, corruption, death, decay, disease, sin, sinners and Satan. That has yet to arrive. We are still in this current temporal evil age. But the age to come is depicted as a perfect eternal age. It will arrive in majesty and glory.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nowhere in that chapter does it speak of 70 AD. That is ludicrous. That's your first mistake, that being one of the reasons why you are not correctly interpreting Zechariah 14 to begin with.


Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The text says all nations. The Romans were not all nations. The text also says this---and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. But in 70 AD the city was destroyed. How does that equal---and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city?

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

If verse 2 is meaning 70 AD, verse 3 needs to be understood like such. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against the Romans, as when he fought in the day of battle. Yet no such thing ever occurred in 70 AD. In 70 AD the Lord was not fighting on behalf of the Jews that ended up slaughtered. He instead allowed this to happen. No way then can 70 AD have a thing to do with anything in Zechariah 14. To insist it does is to throw common sense out the window altogether.

You are totally sidestepping my main points. I refer you back.

And, yes, the Roman Empire did represent all nations. Check the history books.

 

[mkgal1]

What has "heaven and earth" to do with being "under the Law"? You are forcing your doctrinal scheme on the sacred text, and it does not fit. It is law and grace that should be contrasted or the old covenant and the new covenant. That is what changed at the cross.

Yes.....that's part of what changed between the Old Covenant and New (although I'd argue that grace was always a part of even the Old Covenant - but that's another discussion).....but you're asking me what "heaven and earth" has to do with the Law? Well.....just look at the passage (it may not "fit" to your paradigm - but it most certainly fits to what's written):

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

Either "heaven and earth" have passed away or there is still the Law in place.

 

[DavidPT]

You are totally sidestepping my main points. I refer you back.

And, yes, the Roman Empire did represent all nations. Check the history books.

So you think the LORD then went forth, and fought against the Romans on behalf of the Jews that were slaughtered at the time, versus what really happened instead?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes.....that's part of what changed between the Old Covenant and New (although I'd argue that grace was always a part of even the Old Covenant - but that's another discussion).....but you're asking me what "heaven and earth" has to do with the Law? Well.....just look at the passage (it may not "fit" to your paradigm - but it most certainly fits to what's written):

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

Either "heaven and earth" have passed away or there is still the Law in place.

But it is talking about its removal at the second coming of Christ, not the coming of Titus in AD70. You are fixed with Titus and AD70, when Scripture is focused in on Christ and His first and second advents.