Why Christian nations are not acting Christian

d taylor · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
What does it mean exactly? Satan controls those nations? Why he doesn’t control benevolent nations?

In the beginning Adam had the earth as his kingdom. But lost this right when he ate of the fruit. satan acquired this right.

God brought forth a nation for Himself in the nation of Israel, the only theocracy in existence, where God was their God and also their king. Until Israel rejected God as their king and wanted a human king instead.

Anyway back to satan, so satan posses the kingdoms of the world. When Jesus came to earth in the first advent, during Jesus and his time of temptation. satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in exchange for worship. Jesus rejected this offer.

But eventually during the tribulation satan will offer the kingdoms of the world again. This time to the man of sin and again in exchange for worship. This time the offer will be accepted by the man of sin.

But i say all of this just to say satan is now in possession of the kingdoms of the world.

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

Martinius said:
I don't think we can say "zero effect" but it is certainly very low. Governments are comprised of people, and those people have to want to promote Christian (or other religious) values. Most self-proclaimed Christians in government don't. Morality and ethical behavior is not a strong point in governmental bodies, especially at the national level. I would submit that it is much easier to see the effects of Christian beliefs on the local level.

I understand. Though leadership is what, 0.0005% of population of whatnot? But then how masses of moral people, when combined in a group, result in an evil society??

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

dqhall said:
The Japanese had Chinese slaves in WWII. China uses slave prison labor. People disappear in China without public trials. Where is Jack Ma? Some Chinese tennis player complained about being raped and disappeared. The Chinese arrested Christian pastors and blew up a megachurch. North Koreans suffer some of the worse poverty and human rights abuses in the world. Many in Asian nations are intolerant of other people’s religion or are atheist. The east is blind to it own faults. Easier to criticize others than admit one’s own sins.

True, but I’m not considering those countries and those ideas prevalent there, it’s a separate and very interesting big topic.

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

d taylor said:
In the beginning Adam had the earth as his kingdom. But lost this right when he ate of the fruit. satan acquired this right.

God brought forth a nation for Himself in the nation of Israel, the only theocracy in existence, where God was their God and also their king. Until Israel rejected God as their king and wanted a human king instead.

Anyway back to satan, so satan posses the kingdoms of the world. When Jesus came to earth in the first advent, during Jesus and his time of temptation. satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in exchange for worship. Jesus rejected this offer.

But eventually during the tribulation satan will offer the kingdoms of the world again. This time to the man of sin and again in exchange for worship. This time the offer will be accepted by the man of sin.

But i say all of this just to say satan is now in possession of the kingdoms of the world.

Okay, but why there are ferocious nations that commit massive evil over centuries and today, and there are nations who mind their own business and are peaceful? For example the Muslim Libya was prosperous and safe, but was attacked because of oil reserves by the Christian West and today Libya’s suffering being torn by a civil war and being plundered by the attackers?

Is Satan selective?

d taylor · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Okay, but why there are ferocious nations that commit massive evil over centuries and today, and there are nations who mind their own business and are peaceful? For example the Muslim Libya was prosperous and safe, but was attacked because of oil reserves by the Christian West and today Libya’s suffering being torn by a civil war and being plundered by the attackers?

If satan was to go around just as a complete evil force. People would flee from this, he is much more craftier, than that. What better ways to draw people away from trusting God, than to do this in loving ways in many instances.

He is an angel of light, the most beautiful creation of God

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

d taylor said:
If satan was to go around just as a complete evil force. People would flee from this, he is much more craftier, than that. What better ways to draw people away from trusting God, than to do this in loving ways in many instances.

He is an angel of light, the most beautiful creation of God

Then your explanation makes no sense. If Satan pretends to be good, then who’s behind the evil nations?

Sketcher · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Generally. I’m not saying non-Christian or non-Western are good. It’s not about who’s bad or who’s good. Black and white is an oversimplified view, the world is more complex. But I’m seriousely interested how a supposedly humane and loving teaching produces monstrous societies capable of perpetrating unimaginable evil.

I don't believe Christianity produced "monstrous societies". I believe sin did that. And I believe that Christianity mitigated the evil that the more violent societies it touched practiced. Pre-Christian Europe in the Dark Ages for instance, was pretty brutal. The pre-Christian Romans were very brutal as well. Yet the church preached limitations on warfare and attempted to set up safe havens for those fleeing violence. It also forbade the use of certain new weapons in war (for a while), and took an active role in brokering peace. It's not a perfect record, but considering that a complete lack of mercy would have been far more natural, and that some tribes practiced human sacrifice, I'd call it a clear improvement.

public hermit · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc

There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?

Christ and political power, power which must operate through threats and force, just do not mix. When they do, Christianity disappears and the appearance of Christianity takes its place. So, there is the appearance of "godliness" but little Christ-like power working through love. Western Christians, by and large, have always succumbed to the temptations of power, which guarantees the gospel becomes all talk and no walk.

If the church in the West shunned power and focused on love, the critique that Christian nations don't act Christian would disappear. If that sounds positively impossible, or pollyanna, then we should just shut the church doors and go home. Oh wait, that's already happening. QED

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

Sketcher said:
I don't believe Christianity produced "monstrous societies". I believe sin did that. And I believe that Christianity mitigated the evil that the more violent societies it touched practiced. Pre-Christian Europe in the Dark Ages for instance, was pretty brutal. The pre-Christian Romans were very brutal as well. Yet the church preached limitations on warfare and attempted to set up safe havens for those fleeing violence. It also forbade the use of certain new weapons in war (for a while), and took an active role in brokering peace. It's not a perfect record, but considering that a complete lack of mercy would have been far more natural, and that some tribes practiced human sacrifice, I'd call it a clear improvement.

Well, I could present a different view on ancient history. Bit I understand what you are saying - it would have been way way wirse without Christianity… Could it be worse though?

Christian nations when arrived in North America committed the biggest genocide in recorded history. Christian populations of Europe were wiping out Jews. Christian nations arrived in western Africa and treated locals worse than animals. Etc etc

Yes, certain sinners. But then they were majority Christian and very devout. Or Christians voting in the USA Bible belt for Bush who destroyed Iraq for no reason other than plunder of oil.

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

public hermit said:
Christ and political power, power which must operate through threats and force, just do not mix. When they do, Christianity disappears and the appearance of Christianity takes its place. So, there is the appearance of "godliness" but little Christ-like power working through love. Western Christians, by and large, have always succumbed to the temptations of power, which guarantees the gospel becomes all talk and no walk.

If the church in the West shunned power and focused on love, the critique that Christian nations don't act Christian would disappear. If that sounds positively impossible, or pollyanna, then we should just shut the church doors and go home. Oh wait, that's already happening. QED

So basically you’re saying it’s erroneous to call those nations Christian?

Well the elite or gov’t okay, but the majority of population could be sincere and devout….

Or am I missing smth?

An evil king or president okay, but millions of people who partake and support with no objections whatsoever?

d taylor · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Then your explanation makes no sense. If Satan pretends to be good, then who’s behind the evil nations?

Not sure if you misunderstood, my comments sounds like you did.

It is not all satan, man is very capable of doing evil acts on their own. Being that, man is a fallen being also.

It is that satan can inspire man to do evil acts or better stated satan can appeal to mans sinful nature. To accomplish evil acts.

public hermit · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
So basically you’re saying it’s erroneous to call those nations Christian?

Well the elite or gov’t okay, but the majority of population could be sincere and devout….

Or am I missing smth?

An evil king or president okay, but millions of people who partake and support with no objections whatsoever?

It's cultural Christianity. Democracies are of the people. If the leadership is rotten that is a reflection of the people. Look at Trump and then ask yourself who his biggest supporters are. It's not rocket science. Western Christians are very comfortable and afraid that could change. It's hard to bear the cross of love when you love comfort.

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

public hermit said:
It's cultural Christianity. Democracies are of the people. If the leadership is rotten that is a reflection of the people. Look at Trump and then ask yourself who his biggest supporters are. It's not rocket science. Western Christians are very comfortable and afraid that could change. It's hard to bear the cross of love when you love comfort.

I’m terrified by this conclusion… Really… I feel awful thinking about it….

So does it mean true Christians are few and far between? Like a rarity? And millions upon millions are anything but? Not just in modern history, but throughout 2000 years

Very dark scenario…

James_Lai · Dec 23, 2021

d taylor said:
Not sure if you misunderstood, my comments sounds like you did.

It is not all satan, man is very capable of doing evil acts on their own. Being that, man is a fallen being also.

It is that satan can inspire man to do evil acts or better stated satan can appeal to mans sinful nature. To accomplish evil acts.

I see now what you mean… Thank you

public hermit · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
I’m terrified by this conclusion… Really… I feel awful thinking about it….

So does it mean true Christians are few and far between? Like a rarity? And millions upon millions are anything but? Not just in modern history, but throughout 2000 years

Very dark scenario…

Don't take it badly. There is always a remnant, and God's grace by far exceeds human sinfulness. But the reality is, political power and Christ do not mix. Separation of church and state is ideal since the church can serve its function and the state its function.

It's just time for repentance and renewal, which happens. Christianity in the West has done a lot of good, but we can't rest on our laurels, which is what comfortable people want to do. We have to get back to the place where we-the body of Christ-remember that we worship the God who brings things into existence and raises the dead, and that trumps all else. We have to remember that love lasts forever, then fear is gone. All we need is some suffering, which will happen, and then we'll wake up and adjust.

dqhall · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
Well, I could present a different view on ancient history. Bit I understand what you are saying - it would have been way way wirse without Christianity… Could it be worse though?

Christian nations when arrived in North America committed the biggest genocide in recorded history. Christian populations of Europe were wiping out Jews. Christian nations arrived in western Africa and treated locals worse than animals. Etc etc

Yes, certain sinners. But then they were majority Christian and very devout. Or Christians voting in the USA Bible belt for Bush who destroyed Iraq for no reason other than plunder of oil.

Most of the Native Americans died of diseases they had no immunity to. There were wars as the French recruited them to fight the English settlers. The Native Americans lost much in trying to fight the settlers moving into their territories. You might learn the indigenous peoples of North America also intermarried with European immigrants to form a Mestizo population north and south of the Mexican border. There are many Native Americans in Alaska and the western states.

Joseph Stalin may have killed more people than Hitler who executed millions. You do not know Christ, if you think the Nazis were Christian. The Islamic jihad killed millions, yet you seem to want to blame nations where Christians live. There are yet wars where Muslims can not be at peace.

Who is to blame for Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait to plunder oil? Is it the Muslims? Do the Chinese sell weapons of war to Muslims because of their greed? Why are Saudi Arabia, Iran and Yemen involved in conflict? They are not Christian. Why did someone in China threaten to nuke Japan?
Why do the Chinese want to steal Taiwan. They are a greedy nation of imperialists.

bèlla · Dec 23, 2021

You will know the tree by the fruit it bears. Not what it calls itself or leads you to believe. But what it produces.

~bella

Martinius · Dec 23, 2021

James_Lai said:
if we take a big population who are Christian, and you make them support nonChristian actions or perform them, what do a govt and banks/corporations have to do to ensure the population plays into their interests? How they manage to effectively turn off Christianity while majority devout Christians? This is a big big mystery

There is a big disconnect between individual ethics, morality and beliefs and that of large entities, such as government and big business. We know that many companies who have production facilities in other countries (think southeast Asia, Central America and China) are exploiting their workers. Some of the foods and spices we buy are produced on land taken over by corporate owners, who have kicked off the people who farmed it (and who relied on it for their very existence), clearing it (burning, bulldozing) of natural growth and replacing it all with mono-culture crops. If that was done to us locally or to our land we would be in revolt. But it is happening a half a world away, so it is out of sight and out of mind. I can personally support fair wages and better living conditions for those in need, yet willingly spend my money to support starvation wages and dismal living and working conditions for those who produce what I want to buy.

The second problem is that you are assuming that most Christians are "devout". That may or may not be true, depending how you define "devout". If a majority of Americans are devout Christians that should mean that a majority of our elected representatives are as well. The evidence suggests otherwise. There is a lot of graft, corruption, lying and the breaking of several other commandments by many of the people we send to Washington. They may go to church and pray, but they do not act like Christians.

As I said somewhere in another post, nations cannot be "Christian". Only people can. Nations, like companies, act in their own best interests, which can often mean not acting in a moral or ethical way. It means not feeling they have any requirement to act fairly and equitably toward those they deal with.

I don't think the disconnect is a mystery at all. It is quite clear. What is also clear is that nothing will ever be done to fix the problem; if anything, it will just get worse.

Kettriken · Dec 24, 2021

jamiec said:
I think the loss of a Christian worldview, and the growth of multiculturalism & of libertarian secularism, have a lot to do with it.

The Christian worldview, as espoused by St. Paul is multicultural. Colossians 3:11

James_Lai said:
I’m terrified by this conclusion… Really… I feel awful thinking about it….

So does it mean true Christians are few and far between? Like a rarity? And millions upon millions are anything but? Not just in modern history, but throughout 2000 years

Very dark scenario…

The world is broken, including those who follow Christ. God wants us anyway, even those who do the worst through their misguided worldview. It is not for us to decide who qualifies as a true Christian. Our job is to comfort the afflicted, love our neighbor, and let God sort them out.

Granted, our job gets much more difficult when comforting and loving is directly opposed by those who claim to follow Christ.

Sketcher · Dec 24, 2021

James_Lai said:
Christian nations when arrived in North America committed the biggest genocide in recorded history.

The US is "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." I don't know about Canada.

James_Lai said:
Christian populations of Europe were wiping out Jews.

Because of sin. It tends to go hand in hand with man-made theocracies, which I'm not a fan of. I'm of course not including the Nazis as Christians collectively. There was a healthy pagan presence among the Nazis, so it wouldn't be right to call the population of Nazis a Christian population. There were those who confessed Christianity within their ranks, but there were also Christians who hid Jews from them.

James_Lai said:
Christian nations arrived in western Africa and treated locals worse than animals. Etc etc

Not an excuse for that, but the tribes of Western Africa had been enslaving each other for generations by the time the Europeans arrived.

James_Lai said:
Yes, certain sinners. But then they were majority Christian and very devout.

I'd say that bloody deeds are a mark of NOT being devout, no matter how loudly the person sings on Sunday.

James_Lai said:
Or Christians voting in the USA Bible belt for Bush who destroyed Iraq for no reason other than plunder of oil.

Bush wasn't voted into office the first time for a war for oil. He was voted in because we'd had enough of Clinton and his people in the 90's, and Gore was one of Clinton's people - who was a much clumsier liar than Clinton, and paid for it. Bush was voted in the second time because Kerry was a bad candidate, and the American public hadn't seen the situation in Iraq sour yet; there was hope of making peace if we had stayed the course. In hindsight, Iraq was a disaster. The American people were told there was a link between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein which turned out to not exist, but we didn't know that at the time. Whatever our intelligence services knew about Iraq before going in, the voters didn't.

When you look at Trump's election, that was really a repudiation of the neo-con foreign policy. Hillary Clinton was closer to that than Trump was. The Obama years foreign policy-wise were back to the Democrat policy of "stir the pot" which encouraged no less than three wars. Trump had other clear problems of course, but no new wars under his watch.

Why Christian nations are not acting Christian

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