Why Catholics become Protestants

[benedictaoo]

The main reason that people leave the Catholic church is due to what they are not getting from Her. And that is instruction, fellowship, and a sermon by someone trained to give sermons. Catholics who leave are usually ignorant of what they are leaving. Granted some of it is their fault for not doing self study as iand many others have done that post here. But somewhere they need to get the understanding of the importance of our faith and this is where the Catholic church has failed the most.

Each church is suppose to be a family. How many parishes can lay to that claim? Most Protestant churches can.
Each church is suppose to be teaching their parishioners about God and helping people develop a solid relationship with Him. How many parishes can lay to that claim? Most Protestant churches can.

This list can go on and on. As Catholics we must be honest and say that even though we have the fullness of truth on our side and the Sacrifice, which Protestants don't have, they as churches do a much better job than we do on everything else.

I always felt if the Catholic church picked up the energy and faith of our Protestant brethren half the world would be Catholic and Protestantism, evangelicalism and Mormonism would be just blips in World history.

There is much we need to learn from or Protestant brethren.

Because the Catholic Church/Christianity is not/was never supposed to be about any of that. It is a way of life, not a place you go to. Its a belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah and we show we believe it by offering Mass daily around the world for the sins of the world and for the conversion of the world. and its not entertainment for us. The priests are not there to entertain us or get us going. He is there to offer the sacrifice of the Mass and to consecrate the Eucharist and we offer it with him and we are bound to Jesus in Communion. You contradict yourself by saying we have the fullness but.... no buts, we do and because we do, this is what we do.

We are there to be fused with Christ, to be imparted God's grace so we can grow in it and reach theosis. Family of God refers to something different. Its union with God, not each other. Its unity in heaven with God. Not on earth with one another. The name of the game is us journeying towards this union with God that only ends in heaven.

The Mass is not where we get catechism either. Its not where we get preach at either. Priest are giving homilies these days but there really isn't a need for it. Our active participation is to offer the sacrifice of Christ for the rest of the world. If we don't offer it, who else will for the rest of the people?

You do know St Patrick converted a whole country with no bible, no preaching at people or fellowshipping with them. He converted it with nothing but the Mass.

Too bad, but its between us and Jesus and our sanctification and it's not a matter between us and everybody else. When we leave Mass we live the life of a Christian which is denial and it is often a life of detachment and sacrifice and prayer and a person will have joy but this joy is not going to be bouncing around crazy happy all day long.

Its really sad to me that Catholics think what we have is not good as what someone else may have because we are concerned about us, what is in it for us. well guess what? Nothing is in it for us but our sanctification and salvation and the world to come. That is why we do this. Its not for any other reason.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I just wonder (that's all) if any has considered asking former Catholics this question?

Might it be of some benefit in answering this good question if it were asked in a forum where such ex-Catholics, now Protestants could freely answer?

JUST QUESTIONS, nothing more.

It depends on what church came to them to pull them away.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Priest are giving homilies these days but there really isn't a need for it.

SO long as there are people who do not know truly what the Church teaches - youth, converts and so forth, there is a need to understanding scriptures per the Greek - and the practices during the time of Christ to fully comprehend what it all means.
Yes homilies are needed so long as ppl are learning - which is life long.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Then I am correct, he once was one

No CJ claims to be a former Catholic.

CJ, from what i can recall was raised by one parent Lutheran and one Catholic. He attended the Catholic Church and i believe the Lutheran church...so i do not know if he properly understood Catholicism and or practiced it fully in the faith since he was torn between the two.

So was he truly Catholic? In my estimation - how does any child profess to be something when they have one foot in one door and another in the other door.

It comes down to this - in my opinion and i could be wrong - but it depends on the relationship with the parent of each religion as to where their heart lies. That's the honesty of it.

Plus - depending on that relationship and discussions with the closer parent - if they are Lutheran, naturally they will only see the need for breaking up the Church if that was what they were taught.

CJ alone knows why he chooses as he does.

Who says Catholics don't have true joy?

IF it werent for my faith - i would be a blubbering mess. It is the joy of my Church - that carries me thru painful things like losing my mum.

I find complete joy in Mass.

 

[Erose]

Because the Catholic Church/Christianity is not/was never supposed to be about any of that. It is a way of life, not a place you go to. Its a belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah and we show we believe it by offering Mass daily around the world for the sins of the world and for the conversion of the world. and its not entertainment for us. The priests are not there to entertain us or get us going. He is there to offer the sacrifice of the Mass and to consecrate the Eucharist and we offer it with him and we are bound to Jesus in Communion. You contradict yourself by saying we have the fullness but.... no buts, we do and because we do, this is what we do.

Christianity is about going out and proclaiming the good news of our Lord and not living in a bubble or our head in the sand as you are claiming. Also I never said that the priest or the Holy Mass should be there for entertainment purposes, so don't put words in my post. That is not Christ like.

In Mass we have the time used for reading the Word of God and for the priest to teach the congregation about the message of those readings. This part is and has been an extremely important part of our liturgy since well 2000 years ago. To belittle the importance of this part is an expression of ignorance that maybe you should do a little bit of research on.

We are there to be fused with Christ, to be imparted God's grace so we can grow in it and reach theosis. Family of God refers to something different. Its union with God, not each other. Its unity in heaven with God. Not on earth with one another. The name of the game is us journeying towards this union with God that only ends in heaven.

There are two great Commandments so don't throw away the 'Love thy neighbor' one. The Catholic church has always taught that we are a family in Christ. As Catholics we need to start acting like one.

The Mass is not where we get catechism either. Its not where we get preach at either. Priest are giving homilies these days but there really isn't a need for it. Our active participation is to offer the sacrifice of Christ for the rest of the world. If we don't offer it, who else will for the rest of the people?

Didn't say it was but Church is more than the Mass. Protestants use this little thing called Sunday school and I don't see any reason why Catholics can't have a Sunday school.

You do know St Patrick converted a whole country with no bible, no preaching at people or fellowshipping with them. He converted it with nothing but the Mass.

St Patrick preached and evangelized. He went out and met with people and talked them about Christ. He didn't just open up a church and started having Masses that people just came to. St Patrick had to catechize without that Mass would have been to the ignorant some dry ritual with no meaning.

Its really sad to me that Catholics think what we have is not good as what someone else may have because we are concerned about us, what is in it for us. well guess what? Nothing is in it for us but our sanctification and salvation and the world to come. That is why we do this. Its not for any other reason.

What I really find as sad is this mentality that we should just put our heads in the sand and just go to Mass and that is it. This Church is built upon the rock foundation of the teaching of Christ and as Christians we are suppose to be sharing that teaching with others. As laypeople we got so used to the religious doing all of the heavy lifting that we as laypeople got lazy and gained the mindset that all we as laypeople have to is go to Mass, try our best to live a good moral life and say the rosary every once in while and we have done our parts. Well guess what the religious are disappearing and cannot no longer carry the load. We as laypeople need to pull our head out of the sand and start doing what needs to be done. Well the problem is we don't know how to do that. It is a skillet that we lost from lack of use. But our Protestant brothers haven't. They learned these skills from Catholics and now it is time for Catholics to learn from them how to do what we must now do.

 

[St. Paul]

I became protestant because I simply read the Bible instead of letting others(the Church) tell me what it says. If you read and study the Bible, chances are you'll become an ex-Catholic. I'm talking about what the corporate Catholic Church teaches today, not what it taught when the apostles preached the correct gospel.

The Catholic Church is nothing more than a billion dollar corporation today. Just take a look at the Churches excesses, and what it wastes its money on. Jesus and Peter would certainly not approve. I imagine they can't be happy with the pope walking around with a hat on dedicated to the fish God Dagon!! Blasphemy!!

 

[WarriorAngel]

I became protestant because I simply read the Bible instead of letting others(the Church) tell me what it says. If you read and study the Bible, chances are you'll become an ex-Catholic. I'm talking about what the corporate Catholic Church teaches today, not what it taught when the apostles preached the correct gospel.

I have found it incomprehensible that anyone denies the Church who has taught over and over the same teachings as the one in error - but fully take on man's interpretations in 2012... or whenever.

This was precisely what i was referring to in my first post in this thread.

We want to worship God the way we agree with - not the way He intended.

If it is something 'we think' it means - then we shop - pick - choose what scriptures mean.

The truth in scriptures tells us it is not scriptures that teaches us. Interesting how many Bible only believers miss that - completely.

Peter said - even when he and Paul were alive - that ppl were wresting scriptures [which were the OT ONLY at the time] and Paul's epistles - to their destruction.

That somehow is completely ignored today.

PETER warned us - we are not to wrest - try to interpret - scriptures or the Epistles on our own. I find it interesting how the teachings of every single Bible only teachers gloss over St Peter's stern warning.
Stern because he did not advocate scriptures alone - and in fact - warned we could be damned for it.

BUT still - more new churches pop up monthly professing they know SCRIPTURES [ONLY] and what it means - negating the historical facts laid out in the Church in what it truly means.

The Catholic Church is nothing more than a billion dollar corporation today. Just take a look at the Churches excesses, and what it wastes its money on. Jesus and Peter would certainly not approve. I imagine they can't be happy with the pope walking around with a hat on dedicated to the fish God Dagon!! Blasphemy!!

This is engaging my ire...so i am going to take on the understanding you have no idea what you are talking about here.
Or i could simply report you.....

The Church doesnt have excesses - you really are putting foot to mouth on this.
The Church takes in monies and as they did when the people wayyyyy back in the time of the Apostles - gathered money for the community - to use for all - and gives it to poor nations - gives it to those in need. AS the world's BIGGEST charity - extending help to even pagans if necessary.

There are no excesses. The clergy live on meager - yet still cost of living salaries. The clergy receive gifts from their families - or pay for the Chalices and what not - which are expensive because we do not treat the sacraments as cheap - as though our Lord is none too important.

Etc etc etc

ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD because of your extreme ignorance on Catholicism and what has ALWAYS BEEN SYMBOLS IN THE CHURCH - a fish was the symbol for Christ [back in the days of persecution] and the BIG hats were used since the OLD TESTAMENT.... when the Jews wore them - to show their statues in the Temple - Synagogue.

The first CHRISTIANS did the same - as the symbols did not change - they took the way the synagogues did Liturgy - and continued doing it as God had set up in ancient times.

SO - if you reallllllly do not know what something means - or is for - or the purpose - it is always best to ask rather than ASSUME.

 

[christseeker45]

that I hate Protestants? I'm wrong that I don't? okay, what ever you say...

Then what am I even doing here? why do i have any compulsion to anything Christian at all... if I also have hate? It doesn't make a lot of sense and that is my point. It would be good if everybody took an honest to God look at themselves.

We can have hidden hatred that we don't even realize, they are more resentments and that is how you sound like you resent other Christians.

and I am telling you if a person has to leave Catholicism in order to give his heart to Christ it was because he was looking for something to be in it for him. It is often all about us, rarely about Christ. There is no reason for anyone who wants Christs to leave HIS Church in order to give themselves to Him. We have the Eucharist, how you gonna leave Him to find Him? There was something wrong with the person, not the Church. so makes no sense, it is about the feeling and not much more.

That may be your thinking but not always the truth. In all my time in Catholicism I have not seem any support for people, no ministries of help. The person I know was a pretty bad guy but he had the Eucharist and confession, I remember him telling me that all the time. When he gave his life and heart to Christ there was such a change in him that if you knew him you would say he was an entirely different person. He personified this verse:


Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Cor 5:17


and it was not fake like your always typing. It was genuine and when I saw him a few years later he was just as on fire for Christ as he was when he first gave his heart to Christ. There may be Catholics like that but I have not meant them and sadly I am not any better.

Its not about how up beat we are... its not about how sweet we are to someone's face. Its about what is in the inside of us and what we are really like that no ones knows about. Its about who does the right thing and who does not... its about faith hope and love to an heroic degree. Its not about how we feel and if we feel good.

I know, I just don't understand why you are always harping on emotions. I have told you time and again that I am not talking about emotions at all.

 

[steve_bakr]

SO long as there are people who do not know truly what the Church teaches - youth, converts and so forth, there is a need to understanding scriptures per the Greek - and the practices during the time of Christ to fully comprehend what it all means.
Yes homilies are needed so long as ppl are learning - which is life long.

Agreed.

 

[underheaven]

All who revere the name of the Lord have him in common.

You are very wise.
I am sad because a united left/communist President has just been elected in France . Nicolas Sarkozy was the only president in France who dared to bring religion up,since many along yrar .He challenged the Atheistic media luvvies from Paris and they destroyed his chance of ever being reelected. Why do I bring this up now. Because the strong right /left divide in europe reminds me of the Catholic /Protestant divide. In many ways it is artificial. Sarko said he wanted what was best for France in these difficult times,and would be president of all French people,but the left one hollande made no such claims.He would not be president of those who voted against him and his policies [not in so many words,but distinctly ]..

I am basically Catholic but I do believe she is failing her more intellectual types from fear,and the need to control from Rome. Like Sarko, the church should take 'the most important doctrines',and line up with those who are 'protestant ' with these 'same beliefs'. There should be dialogue between these different people ,not to convert each other, as there is no need ,but to learn from each other ,support each other,and Stimulate those who have become BORED,sheep, like members of the RCC ,and let the non catholics into the special mystery of the RCC .The only ones who gain from this divide is the growing atheistic/libertarian growing danger.

 

[steve_bakr]

I became protestant because I simply read the Bible instead of letting others(the Church) tell me what it says. If you read and study the Bible, chances are you'll become an ex-Catholic. I'm talking about what the corporate Catholic Church teaches today, not what it taught when the apostles preached the correct gospel.

The Catholic Church is nothing more than a billion dollar corporation today. Just take a look at the Churches excesses, and what it wastes its money on. Jesus and Peter would certainly not approve. I imagine they can't be happy with the pope walking around with a hat on dedicated to the fish God Dagon!! Blasphemy!!

Well, I was a Protestant most of my life, but I converted to Catholicism because I felt it was a fuller way to worship and experience Jesus Christ. But I have nothing against Protestantism.

 

[Erose]

Well, I was a Protestant most of my life, but I converted to Catholicism because I felt it was a fuller way to worship and experience Jesus Christ. But I have nothing against Protestantism.

And for me the thing that led to my conversion was reading the Bible with an open heart and when I discovered a church that did not contradict the Bible like all Protestant churches do, I became a member of that Church.

The Catholic church is the only Church that Scripture is fulfilled.

 

[benedictaoo]

SO long as there are people who do not know truly what the Church teaches - youth, converts and so forth, there is a need to understanding scriptures per the Greek - and the practices during the time of Christ to fully comprehend what it all means.
Yes homilies are needed so long as ppl are learning - which is life long.

They are not strictly needed to offer Mass. They are needed in your opinion. We go to offer the Mass, not to hear a homily. and we are supposed to educate our own children.. Mass is not CCD classes, its not RCIA either. Pio never gave a homily. How many conversions did his Masses bring about? many. we do not need them. Usually early AM Masses don't have them. I mean, they're okay... I do not mind them but if I ever get to where I need to have one or I don't "feel it" if I don't get one, then I got the problem, not the Catholic Church. and if we need a homily to teach Catholic adults, then we as a Church have a problem because we have lost our way then.

I'm not there (we're) not there to get a education, a lecture, fellowship.. none of that. and worshiping is not song nor dance. We are there to assist in offering the Mass and worship Christ on the alter. Everything else happens outside of that. Nobody stopping anyone from fellowshipping with one another, or educating themselves, its just Mass is not the time nor place to do any of that.

I mean, isn't this what is the gripe with Vll? Protestizing the Mass? isn't that why we want the Traditional Mass back? From the Protestant written Hymns sung to the guitars played on the alter... not what we're there for but its the New Order, Novus Ordo.

 

[benedictaoo]

It depends on what church came to them to pull them away.

a church can't pull anyone away who doesn't want to be pulled away.

 

[benedictaoo]

CJ, from what i can recall was raised by one parent Lutheran and one Catholic. He attended the Catholic Church and i believe the Lutheran church...so i do not know if he properly understood Catholicism and or practiced it fully in the faith since he was torn between the two.

So was he truly Catholic? In my estimation - how does any child profess to be something when they have one foot in one door and another in the other door.

It comes down to this - in my opinion and i could be wrong - but it depends on the relationship with the parent of each religion as to where their heart lies. That's the honesty of it.

Plus - depending on that relationship and discussions with the closer parent - if they are Lutheran, naturally they will only see the need for breaking up the Church if that was what they were taught.

CJ alone knows why he chooses as he does.

If IIRC, CJ was literally a kid when he was Catholic and literally a teen when he choose to be Lutheran. Wasn't he a non Denomination before that?

Anyway, I know he was like 16 when he would post in GT against the Catholic Church and I remember something about a grandfather being Catholic or was it Lutheran? So, and I do not mean any disrespect what so ever but there is no other way to say it then to just say it, he was a kid. What insight could he really offer a Catholic contemplating on leaving the Church? Its not like he was ever a Catholic as an adult or was a Catholic for years and years.

What I would like to know is how many serious Catholics who spent many years as a Catholic who is serious actually leave? I venture to say none. If they leave the Church then they don't go anywhere else.



and CJ, if I got any of the facts wrong, then I apologize and just disregard this post.

 

[christseeker45]

They are not strictly needed to offer Mass. They are needed in your opinion. We go to offer the Mass, not to hear a homily. and we are supposed to educate our own children.. Mass is not CCD classes, its not RCIA either. Pio never gave a homily. How many conversions did his Masses bring about? many. we do not need them. Usually early AM Masses don't have them. I mean, they're okay... I do not mind them but if I ever get to where I need to have one or I don't "feel it" if I don't get one, then I got the problem, not the Catholic Church. and if we need a homily to teach Catholic adults, then we as a Church have a problem because we have lost our way then.

I'm not there (we're) not there to get a education, a lecture, fellowship.. none of that. and worshiping is not song nor dance. We are there to assist in offering the Mass and worship Christ on the alter. Everything else happens outside of that. Nobody stopping anyone from fellowshipping with one another, or educating themselves, its just Mass is not the time nor place to do any of that.

I mean, isn't this what is the gripe with Vll? Protestizing the Mass? isn't that why we want the Traditional Mass back? From the Protestant written Hymns sung to the guitars played on the alter... not what we're there for but its the New Order, Novus Ordo.

If that's the only reason to go than it ain't worth going

 

[benedictaoo]

Christianity is about going out and proclaiming the good news of our Lord and not living in a bubble or our head in the sand as you are claiming. Also I never said that the priest or the Holy Mass should be there for entertainment purposes, so don't put words in my post. That is not Christ like.

In Mass we have the time used for reading the Word of God and for the priest to teach the congregation about the message of those readings. This part is and has been an extremely important part of our liturgy since well 2000 years ago. To belittle the importance of this part is an expression of ignorance that maybe you should do a little bit of research on.


There are two great Commandments so don't throw away the 'Love thy neighbor' one. The Catholic church has always taught that we are a family in Christ. As Catholics we need to start acting like one.
Didn't say it was but Church is more than the Mass. Protestants use this little thing called Sunday school and I don't see any reason why Catholics can't have a Sunday school.

St Patrick preached and evangelized. He went out and met with people and talked them about Christ. He didn't just open up a church and started having Masses that people just came to. St Patrick had to catechize without that Mass would have been to the ignorant some dry ritual with no meaning.


What I really find as sad is this mentality that we should just put our heads in the sand and just go to Mass and that is it. This Church is built upon the rock foundation of the teaching of Christ and as Christians we are suppose to be sharing that teaching with others. As laypeople we got so used to the religious doing all of the heavy lifting that we as laypeople got lazy and gained the mindset that all we as laypeople have to is go to Mass, try our best to live a good moral life and say the rosary every once in while and we have done our parts. Well guess what the religious are disappearing and cannot no longer carry the load. We as laypeople need to pull our head out of the sand and start doing what needs to be done. Well the problem is we don't know how to do that. It is a skillet that we lost from lack of use. But our Protestant brothers haven't. They learned these skills from Catholics and now it is time for Catholics to learn from them how to do what we must now do.

Okay, alright. You do not get what I'm saying, whats new huh? nobody ever gets what I say.

I wasn't implying that we are to be alone and isolated. We offer the Mass t-o-g-e-t-h-e-r, with the priest, in union, all over the world, with all Catholics everywhere, with all the Masses said. We join our prayers with the people here, with those in heaven, and its one big prayer going up to God and that is why it is so very powerful.

Our stuff that we do transcends and so, no way is there anything that can compare to it. That is a lot more then just what the Protestants do. Our experice is mytical, not material. So the fellowship of Protestants, as nice as it all is, and I'm not criticizing it, but its just not Mass nor could it ever be and any person who knows this about the mass who leaves it for a protestant fellowship, well, I'm really sorry but they have a screw lose or a screw missing somewhere. Catholics who know this, just don't leave.


So, FYI People, the name of the Christian game is Theosis and our process of it, ie "God became man so man can become God"... as in the closet to being God with out being divine. When we say God like, we do not say we imitate or act like Him but we become, transform , turn into. That is what all those sacraments are for. They aren't there just for show. We aren't dung cover up, we are the real Christian deal. And we do not become a divinity but after its all said and done, at the end of the story, hopefully we reached this perfection and we will have perfect union with God in heaven. This is what the family of God is. Its nothing of what you will find on this earth.

We become just like Him in the process of thosis, old man gone, new man on... we partake of the divine nature, we put on Christ. that's what all that means. and if we are on that very straight and narrow road, we will be joyful and have joy... if we are on the wide and crazy road, we won't, we will find all this Christian stuff a major pain in the tucus.

and the sanctification for this transformation comes from the Mass, it draws down God's grace and this drawing down is what we all do together, in union. And this grace we draw down from heaven spills over to all those other Christian denominations whether anyone realizes it or not. It spills over to everywhere and it is what stays the arm of God. It draws down His mercy. Its why the world keeps turning. So I'm really not knowing what is there to envy?

This is what we are all doing here on plant earth. This is why Adam fell... yep, "o, happy fault of Adam..." why happy? Becuase we get a better deal then if Adam had not fallen. We get union with God, (being like Him) through the fact that Christ becmae man, like us, one of us, so that means, we can become Him. Its theosis. The name of the game. Why were here, the purpose of life.

So, tell me, what I am missing from not being Catholic? what am I needing that I do not have? What could possibly give me more joy? Why on earth would I leave?

 

[MKJ]

They are not strictly needed to offer Mass. They are needed in your opinion. We go to offer the Mass, not to hear a homily. and we are supposed to educate our own children.. Mass is not CCD classes, its not RCIA either. Pio never gave a homily. How many conversions did his Masses bring about? many. we do not need them. Usually early AM Masses don't have them. I mean, they're okay... I do not mind them but if I ever get to where I need to have one or I don't "feel it" if I don't get one, then I got the problem, not the Catholic Church. and if we need a homily to teach Catholic adults, then we as a Church have a problem because we have lost our way then.

I'm not there (we're) not there to get a education, a lecture, fellowship.. none of that. and worshiping is not song nor dance. We are there to assist in offering the Mass and worship Christ on the alter. Everything else happens outside of that. Nobody stopping anyone from fellowshipping with one another, or educating themselves, its just Mass is not the time nor place to do any of that.

I mean, isn't this what is the gripe with Vll? Protestizing the Mass? isn't that why we want the Traditional Mass back? From the Protestant written Hymns sung to the guitars played on the alter... not what we're there for but its the New Order, Novus Ordo.

I don't know - your line of thought seems to lead to the idea that the liturgy isn't actually all that important at all. But that isn't how it has been understood through most of the history of the Church - it has been understood to be deeply significant. And while it is true that homilies are not always required, they are supposed to be given at times, and they are given a prominent place in the liturgy for a reason - the homily forms a unit with the Scriptural readings and Creed. For a lot of people, especially adults, it is the main form of religious teaching they get on a weekly basis.

THe NO problems I think are not really about "Protestantizing the Mass" - I think they lie elsewhere in a kind of faddishness around liturgical scholarship getting caught up with some popular cultural movements. But in part the issue is perhaps not taking the didactic role of liturgy importantly enough, and I wonder if this isn't a result of going sop long without vernacular liturgy. People in the pews got used to the idea that it wasn't there to teach them doctrine or anything else, even though that was always how liturgy was understood and developed by the Church itself.

But the fact is, most people put a lot of weight on their experiences. If you read that Joe is a good guy, if your friends tell you that, it counts for something. But if every time, or a lot of the time, when you meet Joe, he is a jerk, you probably have doubts about his real character.

In this case, I think when people are in a parish church where the Mass and other worship is inadequate, where there is little teaching or encouragement or direction in learning, and where no spiritual community is forming to support each other and reach out into the surrounding world, people doubt. If the Catholic Church is what it claims, they think, why are these things not happening? Shouldn't that process of theosis mean that these kinds of communities begin to develop? Why are they happening in other types of Christian communities? The conclusion they come to is that maybe what they are told is going on in the Mass or the parish or the whole Catholic Church isn't the truth at all. If this goes on for a long time, or in a number of different parishes, their faith in the institution will be very precarious.

I think this is pretty basic to how most people - maybe everyone - thinks. Show them a historical or theological argument and they will consider it. But if it is contradicting their personal observations, you will have a hard time convincing them.

And honestly, who can blame them? If the proof is in the pudding, and it doesn't seem to reflect the ingredient list, what should they think?

 

[benedictaoo]

If that's the only reason to go than it ain't worth going

what? Its not worth going for a homily? I agree. Its not. and its why Protestant services are not worth going... Its not worth going to fellowship, or be "fed" with the word preached in a way that moves... none of that to me is worth going but I do recognize that its nice, but it only fills the human need in us because we are trying to fill the God void that is in us. We can not fill it with those things. What we are looking for is a true unity with God and we get it through the Eucharistic. Its where we can be one with God.

But we are all social beings by nature. We do need to socialize with each other but none of this is Theosis. I don't understand why Catholics don't have more events where they can get this from each other. I don't get why its either/or.

 

[benedictaoo]

I don't know - your line of thought seems to lead to the idea that the liturgy isn't actually all that important at all. But that isn't how it has been understood through most of the history of the Church - it has been understood to be deeply significant. And while it is true that homilies are not always required, they are supposed to be given at times, and they are given a prominent place in the liturgy for a reason - the homily forms a unit with the Scriptural readings and Creed. For a lot of people, especially adults, it is the main form of religious teaching they get on a weekly basis.

THe NO problems I think are not really about "Protestantizing the Mass" - I think they lie elsewhere in a kind of faddishness around liturgical scholarship getting caught up with some popular cultural movements. But in part the issue is perhaps not taking the didactic role of liturgy importantly enough, and I wonder if this isn't a result of going sop long without vernacular liturgy. People in the pews got used to the idea that it wasn't there to teach them doctrine or anything else, even though that was always how liturgy was understood and developed by the Church itself.

But the fact is, most people put a lot of weight on their experiences. If you read that Joe is a good guy, if your friends tell you that, it counts for something. But if every time, or a lot of the time, when you meet Joe, he is a jerk, you probably have doubts about his real character.

In this case, I think when people are in a parish church where the Mass and other worship is inadequate, where there is little teaching or encouragement or direction in learning, and where no spiritual community is forming to support each other and reach out into the surrounding world, people doubt. If the Catholic Church is what it claims, they think, why are these things not happening? Shouldn't that process of theosis mean that these kinds of communities begin to develop? Why are they happening in other types of Christian communities? The conclusion they come to is that maybe what they are told is going on in the Mass or the parish or the whole Catholic Church isn't the truth at all. If this goes on for a long time, or in a number of different parishes, their faith in the institution will be very precarious.

I think this is pretty basic to how most people - maybe everyone - thinks. Show them a historical or theological argument and they will consider it. But if it is contradicting their personal observations, you will have a hard time convincing them.

And honestly, who can blame them? If the proof is in the pudding, and it doesn't seem to reflect the ingredient list, what should they think?

Really? I'm conveying that i don't think the liturgy is all that important??

Did you read my other posts? and I do not disagree with any of what you say.

I'm focusing on the reason why we are all here, the purpose of life itself.

Why are we Christian? Why did God create us? Why did God permit Adam to fall from grace? Why did Christ become a man? Why did He die for us and rise to new life?