Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

[WarriorAngel]

We were just joking around I'm an italophile myself but I don't change my religion because of it.

I was answering #51

 

[Adam Warlock]

.

 

[Fran75]

If you have a love for the Divine Liturgy and the traditions of the East then please do consider the Eastern Rite, our services and traditions are the same and/or very simalar to the Orthodox. If you seriously have an issuse with some the doctrine that you mentioned in your OP then by all means look in to the Orthodox church just make sure you are being honest with yourself and doing it for the right reasons.
That said I am still Catholic (Byzantine/Eastern/Greek) because I was born it to it, my parish is my family. I am constanly learning things that I am supposed to believe but did not know, and I go to Liturgy regularly and attened a Byznatine Catholic school until 8 th grade, we are required to believe/follow the same doctrine as the western rite but there are many things that, shall I say, are not mentioned or emphasized.
I looked at the differences between the Catholic and Orthodox doctrine I agree with the Orthodox on some and with the Catholic on others. If I could no longer attend a Byzantine Catholic Church I would strongly consider convering myself but more because I would not be fullfilled without attending the Divine Liturgy as opposed the Roman Mass, not the right reason or the best reason, but I feel I am to old to change and wouldn't want to change now.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

I was answering #51

LOL Which was a response in jest to my earlier comment It's all good.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

gurneyhalleck1,

I think that the Catholic Church does have a very deep devotion to Mary

Regarding liturgy, remember it's not just the Novus Ordo.. the Catholic Church also has the Eastern rites, and the Latin Mass.

Here's an example of a Tridentine Latin Mass (and the Pope is a supporter of this)

Tridentine Latin Mass: Last Sunday after Pentecost (5/8) - YouTube

Here's another video:

Beauty of Catholic Tradition - YouTube

God bless!

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

And the reverence for Mary is higher

You're in California. You can't sit there and tell us with a straight face that an ethnic group like the Mexicans do not have a high reverence towards Mary.

Forget Poles (Who always have high regard, conduct masses for the Blessed Virgin, and have numerous processions for her), Mexicans may give the Italians a run for their money.

Is your parish that bland and dead? I think that's the problem with a lot of places: They don't inherit priests from the "Old Country" (Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc.) We don't have that problem here...unless the parish is small and the priests only conduct mass and confession.

Earlier I said that if push comes to shove, I would convert to the Greek Orthodox. The reason I chose Greek Orthodox wasn't because of their food: I'm Polish Catholic; a lot of the Orthodox brothers really didn't take to kind that a country that far in Eastern Europe aligned themselves with Rome.

 

[QuantaCura]

The scandal of irreverent liturgy is definitely bad. But as has been pointed out, many Anglicans have beautiful liturgies, but bad doctrine.

Sadly, there has always been times when the grass seemed greener else where. If we go back to the first millennium, the Donatists would have seemed more appealing than what was going in what we all agree was the true Church at the time. Hippolytus' schismatic church were way more disciplined than the true Church, but again, he was wrong (he was later reconciled, martyred, and is now a Saint). There's plenty more examples in the first millennium as well. Here's a description from St. Basil of his time:

The laws of the Church are in confusion. The ambition of men, who have no fear of God, rushes into high posts, and exalted office is now publicly known as the prize of impiety. The result is, that the worse a man blasphemes, the fitter the people think him to be a bishop. Clerical dignity is a thing of the past. There is a complete lack of men shepherding the Lord's flock with knowledge. Ambitious men are constantly throwing away the provision for the poor on their own enjoyment and the distribution of gifts. There is no precise knowledge of canons. There is complete immunity in sinning; for when men have been placed in office by the favour of men, they are obliged to return the favour by continually showing indulgence to offenders. Just judgment is a thing of the past; and everyone walks according to his heart's desire. Vice knows no bounds; the people know no restraint. Men in authority are afraid to speak, for those who have reached power by human interest are the slaves of those to whom they owe their advancement. And now the very vindication of orthodoxy is looked upon in some quarters as an opportunity for mutual attack; and men conceal their private ill-will and pretend that their hostility is all for the sake of the truth. Others, afraid of being convicted of disgraceful crimes, madden the people into fratricidal quarrels, that their own doings may be unnoticed in the general distress. Hence the war admits of no truce, for the doers of ill deeds are afraid of a peace, as being likely to lift the veil from their secret infamy. All the while unbelievers laugh; men of weak faith are shaken; faith is uncertain; souls are drenched in ignorance, because adulterators of the word imitate the truth. The mouths of true believers are dumb, while every blasphemous tongue wags free; holy things are trodden under foot; the better laity shun the churches as schools of impiety; and lift their hands in the deserts with sighs and tears to their Lord in heaven.

The thing is, everything the Orthodox offer can be found in the Catholic Church. Maybe you can look in your area for an Eastern rite parish or a parish offering the "extraordinary form" of the Roman rite.

The Catholic Church has spread the faith throughout the entire world when the the Orthodox were content being the lackeys of emperors, sultans, and czars and fighting amongst themselves as to who could have the "primacy of honor" or have jurisdiction over some patch of land or another (it's not their fault, they had no means to settle these things). The Catholic Church, and the office of the Petrine Primacy, despite any failings on the part of Catholics and even Popes, gives Christ a voice in this world that is unmatched by any Patriarch, or any other religious leader for that matter. When Peter speaks, just like in Acts, the world listens--it may hate what it hears, but it pays attention. The Orthodox Patriarchs are irrelevant outside their small areas (if that).

Also, as has been mentioned, applying economy to not just ecclesiastical canons (which is fine), but to the divine law and natural law as well is a very serious problem.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Count how many times the Blessed Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary is invoked and adored during the Divine Liturgy compared to the Latin Mass. Sometimes the way the Mexican community in my area uses Mary as a sort of mascot really turns me off. They put her on Mexican flags and they wear t-shirts of her that look almost gang-like. I won't go into details but I think some of it is more ethnically-driven than true devotion at times. My wife is filipino, from the Philippines, born and raised, and she readily tells me that the way they celebrate Our lady of Perpetual Help here in our parish is just a cheesy excuse, in her opinion, to do karaoke, dance crazy, eats eats and more eats, and to party it up. I've watched some fairly wild Fatima festivals around here that seem like an excuse to cut loose.

There is some AWESOME Marian devotion in Catholicism. Make no mistake, I'm not saying there isn't. Love of Mary in the CC is one reason I'm considering staying on board. But in my anecdotal experience, the Orthodox in liturgy praise her heavily and the St. John Chrysostom liturgy gives her the hyperdulia she deserves in spades over the Western Rites. She is also heavily invoked in prayers with them.

You're in California. You can't sit there and tell us with a straight face that an ethnic group like the Mexicans do not have a high reverence towards Mary.

Forget Poles (Who always have high regard, conduct masses for the Blessed Virgin, and have numerous processions for her), Mexicans may give the Italians a run for their money.

Is your parish that bland and dead? I think that's the problem with a lot of places: They don't inherit priests from the "Old Country" (Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc.) We don't have that problem here...unless the parish is small and the priests only conduct mass and confession.

Earlier I said that if push comes to shove, I would convert to the Greek Orthodox. The reason I chose Greek Orthodox wasn't because of their food: I'm Polish Catholic; a lot of the Orthodox brothers really didn't take to kind that a country that far in Eastern Europe aligned themselves with Rome.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

By the way, to all the posters who have thoughtfully offered the suggestion that I go to an Eastern Rite Catholic parish.....not possible. The nearest one is like 3 hours away. Out of the question.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In my area, and I've heard this a lot online from other folks as well as parishoners locally, the Greeks are very much clannish in their congregations and far more ethnic. They prefer you to be Greek and aren't the warmest of folks toward outsiders. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that.....

The Slavic churches rock. The Serbian parish I've been going to is so so so warm and welcoming. The first question is, "so when are you going to join us and get chrismated!!?"

The Greek parish I visited they had an odd scowl and looked like, "hmmmm, who's this dude?"

In my area, the Greeks take a backseat to the Serbs and Russians when it comes to hospitality, warmth, inviting, and outreach.

You're in California. You can't sit there and tell us with a straight face that an ethnic group like the Mexicans do not have a high reverence towards Mary.

Forget Poles (Who always have high regard, conduct masses for the Blessed Virgin, and have numerous processions for her), Mexicans may give the Italians a run for their money.

Is your parish that bland and dead? I think that's the problem with a lot of places: They don't inherit priests from the "Old Country" (Ireland, Italy, Poland, etc.) We don't have that problem here...unless the parish is small and the priests only conduct mass and confession.

Earlier I said that if push comes to shove, I would convert to the Greek Orthodox. The reason I chose Greek Orthodox wasn't because of their food: I'm Polish Catholic; a lot of the Orthodox brothers really didn't take to kind that a country that far in Eastern Europe aligned themselves with Rome.

 

[Gwendolyn]

The only Orthodox church near me is Greek, and everyone who attends is definitely Greek, and they want you to be Greek, too. The liturgy is in Greek, the homily is in Greek, no English whatsoever, ever.

If I moved to a metropolitan area I would have better access to Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Greek in my area, 50 miles from here, is mostly 75% English.

The Serb parish is great. They only sing a couple things in Serbian. But you know what? I asked my priest how to pronounce and translate the Holy Trisagion and I pray it in Serbian now. It's great!

Ева квартет - Святи Боже - YouTube

Translated:

(Svyati Bozhe, Svyati Krepki, Svyati Bessmertni, pomiluy nas.)
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.....

The Orthodox edition of the Holy, Holy, Holy

The only Orthodox church near me is Greek, and everyone who attends is definitely Greek, and they want you to be Greek, too. The liturgy is in Greek, the homily is in Greek, no English whatsoever, ever.

If I moved to a metropolitan area I would have better access to Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

 

[MKJ]

In my area, and I've heard this a lot online from other folks as well as parishoners locally, the Greeks are very much clannish in their congregations and far more ethnic. They prefer you to be Greek and aren't the warmest of folks toward outsiders. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that.....

The Slavic churches rock. The Serbian parish I've been going to is so so so warm and welcoming. The first question is, "so when are you going to join us and get chrismated!!?"

The Greek parish I visited they had an odd scowl and looked like, "hmmmm, who's this dude?"

In my area, the Greeks take a backseat to the Serbs and Russians when it comes to hospitality, warmth, inviting, and outreach.

That seems to be a bit of a theme about the Greeks, however I think it also varies considerably by parish. Some people seem to be in really great Greek parishes.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

When things get way too ethnic in any church, it makes things tough when it comes to joining up. I've been to Mexican parishes, Catholic parishes, around here where there was literally not one white guy in the entire parish. As a teacher, many of my Mexican students used to invite me to their first communions when I taught second grade to migrant Mexican children. When I showed up in the church at the Mass, they looked at me like I was the Thing off the Fantastic Four!

That seems to be a bit of a theme about the Greeks, however I think it also varies considerably by parish. Some people seem to be in really great Greek parishes.

 

[Rebekka]

I guess my question is this---why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? For the sake of argument, pretend an Orthodox parish is just down your street and so is a Catholic one. Why do you choose Catholicism over Holy Orthodoxy?

I ask this not as a challenge or to argue or smear the Catholic Church. In fact, I'm truly asking for input as to why I should stay Catholic and not go Orthodox? I'm not trying to debate either. Far from it. I'd just like to know your reasons for the choice. I'd like some food for thought.

Blessings to all.

I'm in the Netherlands; there is no tradition of orthodoxy here, in the entire country there are only a handful orthodox churches and none of them in my region (and I don't have a car). You say "for the sake of argument, pretend an orthodox parish is just down your street"- well, sorry, no, I can't, because this is very relevant to my not becoming orthodox.
I'm conservative and I'm not a church hopper. I grew up in the catholic church and for me there are only two realistic options: catholicism and agnosticism. Since I do believe in God, catholicism it is, but very reluctantly since I have some of the same objections to the church as you, and probably more.

Who knows what I'd do if orthodoxy were truly an option (also historically/traditionally in my region) - because from what I've heard about it in TAW it does sound sympathetic. My views on remarriage for example are orthodox.

 

[MKJ]

When things get way too ethnic in any church, it makes things tough when it comes to joining up. I've been to Mexican parishes, Catholic parishes, around here where there was literally not one white guy in the entire parish. As a teacher, many of my Mexican students used to invite me to their first communions when I taught second grade to migrant Mexican children. When I showed up in the church at the Mass, they looked at me like I was the Thing off the Fantastic Four!

I've often wanted to go next door to the Baptist church where they have an excellent gospel choir. But they make visitors introduce themselves and I am too shy. And there is no way I could blend in.

I think even very ethnicity homogeneous parishes can be welcoming, but still feel weird to someone from a different background. That in itself wouldn't stop me from attending though. it's when people don't seem to get that the point of being there is not about ethnicity.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The ethnicity of Orthodoxy is not an issue for me.

Ironically enough, this priest here in the Catholic diocese of San Joaquin where I live, he said to me, "hey, if you go Orthodox, you'll be losing your ethnic ties that you have in Catholicism, a comfortable place, in exchange for a foreign and new, strange environment where you have no one to relate to really...."

I laughed. My diocese is mostly Mexican, Portuguese, Portuguese and Mexican LOL....we have some anglos like me but we don't get any "days" dedicated to us like Fatima, Gudalupe, Filipino Perpetual Help, and all the other stuff. As someone of German, English, Irish background, I have zip ethnically here. The Orthodox are mostly anglos (converts) with Serbs and Russians. I feel more ethnically in synch with them than here in the Catholic!! LOL

I've often wanted to go next door to the Baptist church where they have an excellent gospel choir. But they make visitors introduce themselves and I am too shy. And there is no way I could blend in.

I think even very ethnicity homogeneous parishes can be welcoming, but still feel weird to someone from a different background. That in itself wouldn't stop me from attending though. it's when people don't seem to get that the point of being there is not about ethnicity.

 

[fhansen]

I was raised a Catholic for most of my life. My wife and I, around six years ago, started seriously questioning the Catholic Church's claims in several areas, most notably--infallibility, papal supremacy, indulgences, the "treasury of merit," and the gross liturgical abuses we see in our area that run rampant. We have been looking into the Orthodox Church for the better part of 9 months now. The liturgy is first rate, totally unspoiled by modernity and Protestant influences. Their theology is very much like the what the Fathers taught, and despite the black cloud of communism and Islam, Orthodoxy has been able to stay consistent and true to its values and liturgy and traditions all over the world in vast and varied lands.

If I become Orthodox, and there's a strong probability at this point that I will, I will do so kicking and screaming because I have loved and adored the Catholic Church for most of my life. I have tried to give Catholicism every chance, every opportunity, but I'm just not buying into the teachings and historical claims.

I guess my question is this---why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? For the sake of argument, pretend an Orthodox parish is just down your street and so is a Catholic one. Why do you choose Catholicism over Holy Orthodoxy?

I ask this not as a challenge or to argue or smear the Catholic Church. In fact, I'm truly asking for input as to why I should stay Catholic and not go Orthodox? I'm not trying to debate either. Far from it. I'd just like to know your reasons for the choice. I'd like some food for thought.

Blessings to all.

How about being an eastern rite Catholic? Anyway, I've been reading about EO lately and the main question for me revolves around authority. Both sides recognize the need for the Church to be the final authority in matters of the faith. Both oppose the doctrine of sola scriptura. Both value concilliar decrees-the EO consider the first seven Ecumenical councils to be of utmost importance, of course-and both recognize the collective authority of the bishops to one degree or another.

But how workable is it, in the long run, for the Church to operate without a living centralized authority, a place where the buck stops if need be to settle controversies? Is it really possible to maintain unity without being organized under, and obedient to in some manner, a single headship? For all the unity in faith, there are still divisions between the eastern Churches-and it would be quite difficult anymore, if not impossible, for any one Church or Churches to call an ecumenical council of all the Churches together. These are just some thoughts.

 

[ebia]

How about being an eastern rite Catholic?

bear in mind that eastern catholic congregations don't exist everywhere.

Anyway, I've been reading about EO lately and the main question for me revolves around authority. Both sides recognize the need for the Church to be the final authority in matters of the faith. Both oppose the doctrine of sola scriptura. Both value concilliar decrees-the EO consider the first seven Ecumenical councils to be of utmost importance, of course-and both recognize the collective authority of the bishops to one degree or another.

But how workable is it, in the long run, for the Church to operate without a living centralized authority, a place where the buck stops if need be to settle controversies? Is it really possible to maintain unity without being organized under, and obedient to in some manner, a single headship? For all the unity in faith, there are still divisions between the eastern Churches-and it would be quite difficult anymore, if not impossible, for any one Church or Churches to call an ecumenical council of all the Churches together. These are just some thoughts.

That argument always reminds me of 1 Samuel 8.

 

[fhansen]

That argument always reminds me of 1 Samuel 8.

I understand what you're saying-and it may be true-or not. We all affirm that God must run the Church and ensure that her teachings are free from error but I'm not entirely sure what, in practical terms, would be the best way to do that. Either way, how He actually does it-and through whom He does it-is still the question.