Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

[ImperialJohn]

So the great flood was just a story then? If so, the people who claim they found Noah's ark must be really delusional. But then again you are also wrong, because it's all depends on how you interpret the bible. Scriptures cannot interpret itself btw. It's how the person reads the scriptures, and how he interprets it. The thing is, how do you know when it's a metaphor or literal, when stated in the bible?

All scripture in the Bible is literal. G-d doesn't make things up, he does not lie. Remember the following:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

The above passage in 2 Timothy confirms that ALL scripture is inspired by God.

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20

This confirms that all scripture was not the prophets’ or mans’ own interpretation but it was direct from God.

 

[martymonster]

Context first of the words around the target word or phrase.
Then expanding circles extending finally from the first to the last page of the scriptures.
After and below all that, outside information.

For example:
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

In the search for the "fruit" the passage tells us that apple or pear or pomegranate is not critical. There may have been fruit, but that's not the important issue.

Can you please explain to Me where comparing spiritual with spiritual comes into it please?

Thanks.

 

[ImperialJohn]

There are things God cannot do (they are just not possible) and there are things God will not do (lie for one).

It would not be “Loving” of God to “force” His will on independent free will agents that decided to do something else. Heaven is like one huge Love feast; but that “Love” is Godly type Love and some people do not want and have repeatedly refused Godly type Love and only want a selfish type of love. They will not be happy in heaven, but may not be real happy with hell either. The Bible does talk about “degrees of punishment” and sinners do not have eternal life even in hell. On earth sinners can remain, but life on earth is limited for good reason, so where can sinners go?

G-d's Kingdom is one of spiritual love, not earthly carnal love.

Sinners go into oblivion. They cease to exist completely.

One thing that G-d can not do instantly by fiat is to recreate his own divine righteous character.

In Romans 6:23: “The wages of sin is death.”

“Wages” Is what one is paid for what one has done. Here I am staring at a statement diametrically opposite to universal Christian teaching.

How can this be? In church we are taught that the wages of sin is everlasting life in an eternally burning hell.”

Another shock comes on reading the last part of the same verse: “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

As a Christian I thought I already had eternal life I am, or I have an immortal soul. Why should I need it as a gift?”

If you research the word soul in the Bible twice you will find the expression,

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezek. 18:4 and 18:20).

If you recall back to Genesis 2 how God said to the first humans, who were souls,

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

In Genesis 2:7 you can read how God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man (dust matter) “became a living soul.” This stated plainly that a soul is physical formed from matter. You will discover that the English word "soul" is translated from the Hebrew "nephesh" and that in Genesis 1 fowl, fish and animals all three were nephesh, as Moses was inspired to write.

God separated the dry land from the oceans. He created then the plant life on the land, then the sea life in the water, the animal life. In the Hebrew in which Moses wrote, the vertebrates are called nephesh inverses 20, 21, 24. The translators correctly rendered nephesh in these three verses into the English words “living creatures.” Yet in Genesis 2:7, speaking of man, the same word nephesh was translated “soul” because the translators falsely thought that only humans are souls. The word nephesh literally means “life of animals,” referring to physical life and not spirit.

The Soul Is Mortal. God made man of matter! This was necessary for the supreme accomplishment God willed. “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [air] of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7).

Man, formed from material dust of the ground, uponbreathing air, became a living soul. It does not say man is, or has, an immortal soul. What was formed from material ground became a soul. The word “soul” is translated from the Hebrew in which Moses wrote, from the word nephesh. The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal. Three times in the first chapter of Genesis animals are called nephesh: Gen. 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh); Gen. 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh); Gen. 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh). The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creature,” but in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul” man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

Therefore the soul is physical, composed of matter, and can die. This is a truth believed by very few denominations, and probably by no other religions.

 

[ImperialJohn]

Ok so these are nit-picky things but where do you find Scriptural basis for those two things? Because I'm not sure if I've yet found a place where the Bible indicates that Lucifer created hell. And there's a passage in Isaiah that actually talks about how God ultimately killed Jesus.

Out of necessity the angels and now man were given free will, the ability to think and reason, to make choices.

Scripture teaches us that Angels were the first to inhabit the Earth even before man and the Cherub Lucifer was appointed as one of Gods highest creations to look after the Earth. Lucifer rebelled against God and used deception to convince one third of all the Angels to rebel with him against God. God kicked him out of heaven and locked the doors to him and his Angels who committed evil and rebelled. He renamed him Satan.

The holy angels and archangels including this super cherub Lucifer of necessity were endowed with ability to think, to reason, to form attitudes, and to make choices and decisions. As explained previously, God started this Lucifer out with everything going for him. He sealed up the sum of wisdom, beauty and perfection. He was perfect in all his ways from the instant he was created until iniquity rebellion, lawlessness was found in him (Ezek. 28:15).

At that very foundation of Satan’s world it was also decreed (Heb. 9:27) that God had appointed that all humans should die once, and after that, by resurrection from the dead, would come the judgment. Meanwhile mankind as a whole would not as yet be brought to judgment neither condemned nor saved. It was at that time decided that as in Adam all humans should die, so in Christ the same “all” should be brought back to life by a resurrection to judgment (I Cor. 15:22). This very resurrection of all who died in Adam has been a mystery to the whole world deceived by Satan. Even today traditional Christianity celebrates the resurrection of Jesus on the pagan Easter every spring, but says nothing about the future resurrection of the billions who have died in Adam.

Human life is animal existence but with human spirit empowering the brain with intellect. The human spirit in man makes possible the union with the Holy Spirit and mind and immortality of God. When mortal man dies, the body reverts to dust, and the spirit returns to God.

The understanding of many Christians into what a soul actually is, is incorrect and is a mistranslation from the Hebrew into English. The "soul" is simply your mortal flesh and blood body that can die. It is the "spirit" that lives on.

The human spirit can also die in what is known as the second death. This would be complete and utter death and being erased completely. It is the human spirit that can be resurrected for judgement or inheritance of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ that upon combining with Gods spirit we inherit eternal life.

Satan has blinded the entire world from seeing. Realize what a deceived traditional Christianity has not understood. This is of supreme importance! The world of traditional Christianity has been deceived into supposed Christian teaching of the immortality of the soul, of those who “profess Jesus” going immediately upon death into a heaven of eternal idleness, freedom from responsibility and bliss in ease and laziness; in those who fail to “accept Jesus” going at death to a definite place of eternal continuous burning fire called hell where they shriek and scream in indescribable pain and agony forever and ever without hope. The teaching has been that man is an immortal soul and already has eternal life. It denies (Rom. 6:23) that the penalty for sin is death and that man can have eternal life only as the gift of God.

The false traditional Christianity teaching might be compared to taking a one-way railroad trip. This trip is your life’s journey. At the end of the line a switch is automatically set that will send you straight to a lasting burning hell of indescribable pain and torture. But if, at any time during life’s journey, you profess to “accept Christ,” the switch at the end of the line, at that point, is turned to shoot you straight to heaven.

In doctrine after doctrine they have believed and taught the diametric opposite of the truths plainly revealed in the Bible. They have taught Satan’s first lie that man is an immortal soul.

Scripture plainly reveals that when you die you are dead. According to the Bible, the dead don’t hear anything, see anything, think anything or know anything. The dead have absolutely no awareness of any kind:

‘For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished . . .’ ” (Eccl. 9:5-6).

The Bible’s message is clear on this point. Death is death beyond any shadow of doubt. The apostle Paul wrote that “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Death, by definition, is the absence of life not just separation from God.

Deceived “Christians” taught, and still teach, that now is the only day of salvation, and that their counterfeit salvation of just “accepting” Jesus Christ, without the repentance of turning from sin and the obeying of God’s law, would send people as “immortal souls” immediately to heaven upon death.

Satan has blinded the minds of those of “traditional Christianity” to the fact that God closed off the tree of life until the glorified Jesus Christ comes in supreme power and glory to restore the government of God over the whole earth. It was decreed, I repeat, that it was appointed to humans once to die, and after death is to come the resurrection to judgment (Heb. 9:27). Meanwhile the world of Adam is not being judged, though in the final judgment all shall be held to account for their sins.

Jesus said plainly, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him . . .” (John 6:44). The Church is merely the “first-fruits” of salvation. Those who, as Jesus did, overcome Satan, their own selves and sin (the “called,” that is), will sit with Christ in his throne when he comes to set up the kingdom of God and to restore the government of God, which the former Lucifer rejected and ceased to administer! Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father . . . draw him . . .” (John 6:44). No man CAN come to Christ otherwise! But the Church is merely the first harvest.

Lucifer had been trained and was thoroughly experienced in administration of the government of God at the very throne of the endless universe! He was one of the two cherubs whose wings covered the throne of God the most high (Ezek. 28:14; Ex. 25:20).

He was created gloriously beautiful perfect in beauty, but he allowed vanity to seize him. Then he turned to erroneous reasoning. God’s law the basis of God’s government is the way of love outgoing concern in obedience, humility and worship the way of giving, sharing, helping, cooperating. He reasoned that competition would be better than cooperation. It would be an incentive to excel, to try harder, to accomplish. There would be more pleasure in serving self and more enjoyment.

He turned against God’s law of love. He became jealous of God, envious, and resentful against God. He allowed lust and greed to fill him, and he became bitter. This inspired a spirit of violence! He deliberately became his Maker’s adversary and enemy. That was his choice, not God’s yet allowed by God! God changed the adversary’s name to what he became, Satan the devil Satan means adversary, competitor, enemy.

Satan directed his supernatural powers henceforth to evil. He became bitter not only against God, but against God’s law. He used his subtle wiles of deception to lead the angels under him into disloyalty, rebellion and revolt against the Creator and finally into a war of aggression and violence to attempt to depose God and seize the throne of the universe.

Their penalty (they are still awaiting final judgment up to now) was disqualification forfeiture of their grand opportunity, perversion of mind, and a colossal earth wide cataclysm of destruction wreaked upon this earth. As a result, the earth came to the condition briefly described in Genesis 1:2. Lucifer was created a perfect bringer of light. Now he became author of darkness, error, confusion and evil. So the rebellion of angels that sinned (II Pet. 2:4-6; Jude 6-7; Isa.14:l2-l5; Ezek. 28:12-17) brought this extreme cataclysm to the earth.

How must God have looked at this situation after the colossal debacle of Lucifer and the angels that sinned? Lucifer was created the most perfect in beauty, mentality, knowledge, power, intellect and wisdom within the almighty power of God to create in a being, with power to think, reason, make choices and decisions on his own. God knew that no higher, more perfect being could be created as an initial creation.

So Lucifer turned to rebellion and iniquity, disobeying G-d created hell and was renamed Satan.

If you believe that G-d killed his son Jesus, or that G-d created hell, then I believe you misunderstand scripture. G-d does not create evil or anything in a state of decay, and I’m pretty sure it was Roman soldiers who killed Jesus in the flesh.

 

[SkyWriting]

All scripture in the Bible is literal. G-d doesn't make things up, he does not lie. Remember the following:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

The above passage in 2 Timothy confirms that ALL scripture is inspired by God.Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20This confirms that all scripture was not the prophets’ or mans’ own interpretation but it was direct from God.

I believe all scripture is God-breathed.
This does not rule out the point of view of different men writing.
As the synoptic gospels attest.

 

[SkyWriting]

Can you please explain to Me where comparing spiritual with spiritual comes into it please?
Thanks.

I have no idea where.

 

[martymonster]

I have no idea where.

OK, do you want Me to tell you?

 

[bling]

G-d's Kingdom is one of spiritual love, not earthly carnal love.

Sinners go into oblivion. They cease to exist completely.

One thing that G-d can not do instantly by fiat is to recreate his own divine righteous character.

In Romans 6:23: “The wages of sin is death.”

“Wages” Is what one is paid for what one has done. Here I am staring at a statement diametrically opposite to universal Christian teaching.

How can this be? In church we are taught that the wages of sin is everlasting life in an eternally burning hell.”

Another shock comes on reading the last part of the same verse: “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

As a Christian I thought I already had eternal life I am, or I have an immortal soul. Why should I need it as a gift?”

If you research the word soul in the Bible twice you will find the expression,

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezek. 18:4 and 18:20).

If you recall back to Genesis 2 how God said to the first humans, who were souls,

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

In Genesis 2:7 you can read how God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man (dust matter) “became a living soul.” This stated plainly that a soul is physical formed from matter. You will discover that the English word "soul" is translated from the Hebrew "nephesh" and that in Genesis 1 fowl, fish and animals all three were nephesh, as Moses was inspired to write.

God separated the dry land from the oceans. He created then the plant life on the land, then the sea life in the water, the animal life. In the Hebrew in which Moses wrote, the vertebrates are called nephesh inverses 20, 21, 24. The translators correctly rendered nephesh in these three verses into the English words “living creatures.” Yet in Genesis 2:7, speaking of man, the same word nephesh was translated “soul” because the translators falsely thought that only humans are souls. The word nephesh literally means “life of animals,” referring to physical life and not spirit.

The Soul Is Mortal. God made man of matter! This was necessary for the supreme accomplishment God willed. “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [air] of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7).

Man, formed from material dust of the ground, uponbreathing air, became a living soul. It does not say man is, or has, an immortal soul. What was formed from material ground became a soul. The word “soul” is translated from the Hebrew in which Moses wrote, from the word nephesh. The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal. Three times in the first chapter of Genesis animals are called nephesh: Gen. 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh); Gen. 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh); Gen. 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh). The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creature,” but in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul” man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

Therefore the soul is physical, composed of matter, and can die. This is a truth believed by very few denominations, and probably by no other religions.

I think we might be in agreement on our conclusion, but soul, spirit and life are used a lot of scripture and it seems interchangable at some times.

You might be trying to divid soul and spirit which only God can do???

 

[SkyWriting]

Out of necessity the angels and now man were given free will, the ability to think and reason, to make choices.
Scripture teaches us that Angels were the first to inhabit the Earth even before man and the Cherub Lucifer was appointed as one of Gods highest creations to look after the Earth. Lucifer rebelled against God and used deception to convince one third of all the Angels to rebel with him against God. God kicked him out of heaven and locked the doors to him and his Angels who committed evil and rebelled. He renamed him Satan.
The holy angels and archangels including this super cherub Lucifer of necessity were endowed with ability to think, to reason, to form attitudes, and to make choices and decisions. As explained previously, God started this Lucifer out with everything going for him. He sealed up the sum of wisdom, beauty and perfection. He was perfect in all his ways from the instant he was created until iniquity rebellion, lawlessness was found in him (Ezek. 28:15).
At that very foundation of Satan’s world it was also decreed (Heb. 9:27) that God had appointed that all humans should die once, and after that, by resurrection from the dead, would come the judgment.Meanwhile mankind as a whole would not as yet be brought to judgment neither condemned nor saved. It was at that time decided that as in Adam all humans should die, so in Christ the same “all” should be brought back to life by a resurrection to judgment (I Cor. 15:22). This very resurrection of all who died in Adam has been a mystery to the whole world deceived by Satan. Even today traditional Christianity celebrates the resurrection of Jesus on the pagan Easter every spring, but says nothing about the future resurrection of the billions who have died in Adam.
Human life is animal existence but with human spirit empowering the brain with intellect. The human spirit in man makes possible the union with the Holy Spirit and mind and immortality of God. When mortal man dies, the body reverts to dust, and the spirit returns to God.
The understanding of many Christians into what a soul actually is, is incorrect and is a mistranslation from the Hebrew into English. The "soul" is simply your mortal flesh and blood body that can die. It is the "spirit" that lives on.
The human spirit can also die in what is known as the second death. This would be complete and utter death and being erased completely. It is the human spirit that can be resurrected for judgement or inheritance of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ that upon combining with Gods spirit we inherit eternal life.
Satan has blinded the entire world from seeing. Realize what a deceived traditional Christianity has not understood. This is of supreme importance! The world of traditional Christianity has been deceived into supposed Christian teaching of the immortality of the soul, of those who “profess Jesus” going immediately upon death into a heaven of eternal idleness, freedom from responsibility and bliss in ease and laziness; in those who fail to “accept Jesus” going at death to a definite place of eternal continuous burning fire called hell where they shriek and scream in indescribable pain and agony forever and ever without hope. The teaching has been that man is an immortal soul and already has eternal life. It denies (Rom. 6:23) that the penalty for sin is death and that man can have eternal life only as the gift of God.
The false traditional Christianity teaching might be compared to taking a one-way railroad trip. This trip is your life’s journey. At the end of the line a switch is automatically set that will send you straight to a lasting burning hell of indescribable pain and torture. But if, at any time during life’s journey, you profess to “accept Christ,” the switch at the end of the line, at that point, is turned to shoot you straight to heaven.
In doctrine after doctrine they have believed and taught the diametric opposite of the truths plainly revealed in the Bible. They have taught Satan’s first lie that man is an immortal soul.
Scripture plainly reveals that when you die you are dead. According to the Bible, the dead don’t hear anything, see anything, think anything or know anything. The dead have absolutely no awareness of any kind:
‘For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished . . .’ ” (Eccl. 9:5-6).
The Bible’s message is clear on this point. Death is death beyond any shadow of doubt. The apostle Paul wrote that “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Death, by definition, is the absence of life not just separation from God.
Deceived “Christians” taught, and still teach, that now is the only day of salvation, and that their counterfeit salvation of just “accepting” Jesus Christ, without the repentance of turning from sin and the obeying of God’s law, would send people as “immortal souls” immediately to heaven upon death.
Satan has blinded the minds of those of “traditional Christianity” to the fact that God closed off the tree of life until the glorified Jesus Christ comes in supreme power and glory to restore the government of God over the whole earth. It was decreed, I repeat, that it was appointed to humans once to die, and after death is to come the resurrection to judgment (Heb. 9:27). Meanwhile the world of Adam is not being judged, though in the final judgment all shall be held to account for their sins.
Jesus said plainly, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him . . .” (John 6:44). The Church is merely the “first-fruits” of salvation. Those who, as Jesus did, overcome Satan, their own selves and sin (the “called,” that is), will sit with Christ in his throne when he comes to set up the kingdom of God and to restore the government of God, which the former Lucifer rejected and ceased to administer! Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father . . . draw him . . .” (John 6:44). No man CAN come to Christ otherwise! But the Church is merely the first harvest.
Lucifer had been trained and was thoroughly experienced in administration of the government of God at the very throne of the endless universe! He was one of the two cherubs whose wings covered the throne of God the most high (Ezek. 28:14; Ex. 25:20).
He was created gloriously beautiful perfect in beauty, but he allowed vanity to seize him. Then he turned to erroneous reasoning. God’s law the basis of God’s government is the way of love outgoing concern in obedience, humility and worship the way of giving, sharing, helping, cooperating. He reasoned that competition would be better than cooperation. It would be an incentive to excel, to try harder, to accomplish. There would be more pleasure in serving self and more enjoyment.
He turned against God’s law of love. He became jealous of God, envious, and resentful against God. He allowed lust and greed to fill him, and he became bitter. This inspired a spirit of violence! He deliberately became his Maker’s adversary and enemy. That was his choice, not God’s yet allowed by God! God changed the adversary’s name to what he became, Satan the devil Satan means adversary, competitor, enemy.
Satan directed his supernatural powers henceforth to evil. He became bitter not only against God, but against God’s law. He used his subtle wiles of deception to lead the angels under him into disloyalty, rebellion and revolt against the Creator and finally into a war of aggression and violence to attempt to depose God and seize the throne of the universe.
Their penalty (they are still awaiting final judgment up to now) was disqualification forfeiture of their grand opportunity, perversion of mind, and a colossal earth wide cataclysm of destruction wreaked upon this earth. As a result, the earth came to the condition briefly described in Genesis 1:2. Lucifer was created a perfect bringer of light. Now he became author of darkness, error, confusion and evil. So the rebellion of angels that sinned (II Pet. 2:4-6; Jude 6-7; Isa.14:l2-l5; Ezek. 28:12-17) brought this extreme cataclysm to the earth.
How must God have looked at this situation after the colossal debacle of Lucifer and the angels that sinned? Lucifer was created the most perfect in beauty, mentality, knowledge, power, intellect and wisdom within the almighty power of God to create in a being, with power to think, reason, make choices and decisions on his own. God knew that no higher, more perfect being could be created as an initial creation.
So Lucifer turned to rebellion and iniquity, disobeying G-d created hell and was renamed Satan.
If you believe that G-d killed his son Jesus, or that G-d created hell, then I believe you misunderstand scripture. G-d does not create evil or anything in a state of decay, and I’m pretty sure it was Roman soldiers who killed Jesus in the flesh.

THAT covers a lot of ground. I didn't see any explanation for these "everlasting torment in Hell" verses though:

New International Version (©1984)
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

New International Version (©1984)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

New International Version (©1984)
I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."

[URL="http://niv.scripturetext.com/luke/16.htm"]New International Version (©1984)
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'[/URL]

 

[martymonster]

THAT covers a lot of ground. I didn't see any explanation for these "everlasting torment in Hell" verses though:

New International Version (©1984)
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

New International Version (©1984)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

New International Version (©1984)
I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."

http://niv.scripturetext.com/jeremiah/23.htmNew International Version (©1984)
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

OK SkyWriting you don't mind if I jump in here do you?

I thought I might kill two birds with one stones here.


Ok, first off to understand the verses you have to understand what it is that the second death is, because if you understand that then you will understand what all the rest of the verses are saying.

Firstly to know what the second death is you need to know what the first death is but to do that you need to obey scripture.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


And there is also this rule as well.


2Pe 1:20 this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,
2Pe 1:21 for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.



OK there is one of the rules for understanding the scriptures, comparing spiritual with spiritual.

OK, so operating on that premise, if there is a second death then there must be a first death, so what is the first death then, is it physical death?

No, it clearly can't be physical death because that is physical not spiritual.
If We were to compare physical death with the lake of fire that would be comparing physical wit physical or physical.

We know that physical death is not considered death at all in the scriptures because Jesus made this statement.


Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


Now this happened to our admonition so that We might know that physical death is not death but sleep.

So what is death then, is there a scripture that tells us?
Yes there is and here it is.


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


There it is, spiritual death is to be carnally minded and here is a second witness on that.


Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.


We are all born into this world spiritually dead because We are all carnally minded.
It's not our fault, that's just the way God made us.

OK so now We know what the first death is, but what about the second death?

Well lets have a look.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


There you go, there is the two deaths, We are either dead to the spirit or dead to the flesh!

Now We know what the second death is by comparing spiritual with spiritual and not interpreting any scripture verse of itself.


I hope at least one person gets something out of this.

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by SkyWriting

THAT covers a lot of ground. I didn't see any explanation for these "everlasting torment in Hell" verses though:
New International Version (©1984)
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
New International Version (©1984)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
New International Version (©1984)
I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."
New International Version (©1984)
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
​

SkyWriting you don't mind if I jump in here do you?

If you covered the above issues, no problem. But you don't make any attempt to explain "everlasting torment in Hell" as the above scriptures describe.

I thought I might kill two birds with one stones here.

I prefer more direct answers.

Ok, first off to understand the verses you have to understand what it is that the second death is, because if you understand that then you will understand what all the rest of the verses are saying.

Firstly to know what the second death is you need to know what the first death is but to do that you need to obey scripture.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


And there is also this rule as well.


2Pe 1:20 this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,
2Pe 1:21 for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.



OK there is one of the rules for understanding the scriptures, comparing spiritual with spiritual.

OK, so operating on that premise, if there is a second death then there must be a first death, so what is the first death then, is it physical death?

No, it clearly can't be physical death because that is physical not spiritual.
If We were to compare physical death with the lake of fire that would be comparing physical wit physical or physical.

We know that physical death is not considered death at all in the scriptures because Jesus made this statement.


Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Now this happened to our admonition so that We might know that physical death is not death but sleep.

Except that only the saved get to be called sleepers. The unsaved don't get resurrected bodies. So they don't sleep. Or, so is my current understanding.
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.
So....who is smoldering for eternity?
And why?....
and in what form of body and spirit?

and how could this not be referring to what we humans call a physical death? Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

So what is death then, is there a scripture that tells us?
Yes there is and here it is.


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


There it is, spiritual death is to be carnally minded and here is a second witness on that.


Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.


We are all born into this world spiritually dead because We are all carnally minded.
It's not our fault, that's just the way God made us.
OK. So now we know what the first death is, but what about the second death?
Well lets have a look.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

There you go, there is the two deaths, We are either dead to the spirit or dead to the flesh!
Now We know what the second death is by comparing spiritual with spiritual and not interpreting any scripture verse of itself.
I hope at least one person gets something out of this.

Likely. But I'm still asking where the smoke went.

 

[martymonster]

Originally Posted by SkyWriting

THAT covers a lot of ground. I didn't see any explanation for these "everlasting torment in Hell" verses though:
New International Version (©1984)
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
New International Version (©1984)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
New International Version (©1984)
I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."
New International Version (©1984)
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
​

If you covered the above issues, no problem. But you don't make any attempt to explain "everlasting torment in Hell" as the above scriptures describe.

I prefer more direct answers.


Except that only the saved get to be called sleepers. The unsaved don't get resurrected bodies. So they don't sleep. Or, so is my current understanding.
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.
So....who is smoldering for eternity?
And why?....
and in what form of body and spirit?

and how could this not be referring to what we humans call a physical death? Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.





Likely. But I'm still asking where the smoke went.

I'm not sure about what the smoke is actually is but I'll look into it.

It doesn't go up for forever and ever though, just an age or in other words, until it is finished.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm not sure about what the smoke is actually is but I'll look into it.

It doesn't go up for forever and ever though, just an age or in other words, until it is finished.

Ok. Lets try this again. These don't mesh well with your story.

1. "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever."
2. "some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
http://niv.scripturetext.com/jeremiah/23.htm3. "I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."
4. but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I'm not disagreeing.
Just asking you to cover these verses in your explanation.

 

[martymonster]

Ok. Lets try this again. These don't mesh well with your story.

1. "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever."
2. "some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
3. "I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."
4. but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I'm not disagreeing.
Just asking you to cover these verses in your explanation.

OK no problem, it could be kind of a long post though, on account of.....


2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

And

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Tavita]

Ok. Lets try this again. These don't mesh well with your story.

1. "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever."
2. "some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
3. "I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace--everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."
4. but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I'm not disagreeing.
Just asking you to cover these verses in your explanation.

Why are we discussing the meaning of the 'words' in passages from Revelation. The only word that needs looking at is the word 'everlasting'.. not a good translation. The whole passage is a metaphor. Revelation is not meant to be taken literally...

Rev 1:1 The Unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and joint participant in the affliction and kingdom and endurance in Jesus Christ, came to be in the island called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Rev 1:10 I came to be, in spirit, in the Lord's day, and I hear behind me a voice, loud as a trumpet,

Revelation is the Spirit speaking through John ~ to you who believes ~, it is the unveiling of Christ ~ within you ~. It speaks in the language of the Spirit. It speaks to you who already has Christ within ~ These passages do not specifically describe what happens to unbelievers after death ~ they speak to the flesh within every man ~ to the flesh that HAS to be dealt with within every believer.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Speaking of the smoke going up forever and ever one has to remember that this was a vision and John is writing what he "saw". When speaking of seeing something that goes up forever it is quite likely that one is refering to distance rather than period of time. Forever often meaning as far as the eye can see and beyond. John saw this for what, a few minutes? maybe a little longer. His vision certianly did not last forever so he did not literally see anything forever.

 

[SkyWriting]

Speaking of the smoke going up forever and ever one has to remember that this was a vision and John is writing what he "saw". When speaking of seeing something that goes up forever it is quite likely that one is referring to distance rather than period of time. Forever often meaning as far as the eye can see and beyond. John saw this for what, a few minutes? maybe a little longer. His vision certainly did not last forever so he did not literally see anything forever.

Checking the translations "to the ages of the ages." seems to be a possible translation. I can find no clear opposition to your understanding of the passage.

 

[martymonster]

Speaking of the smoke going up forever and ever one has to remember that this was a vision and John is writing what he "saw". When speaking of seeing something that goes up forever it is quite likely that one is refering to distance rather than period of time. Forever often meaning as far as the eye can see and beyond. John saw this for what, a few minutes? maybe a little longer. His vision certianly did not last forever so he did not literally see anything forever.

I think your definitely onto something there Soul Searcher!

It could be the smoke of their torment ascending is talking about their judgment leading toward repentance.

As in, the old man of the earth is pushed upwards by His judgment towards the heavens and is then no longer carnal.

Maybe that is what repenting in sackcloth and ashes is about?

We turn up to the wedding and refused entry and realize that We are not wearing the proper garments to go to the wedding.

We are burned up until there is only ashes which is what makes our repentance genuine and complete.

Definitely something to it Me thinks.



Thank you for that bit of insight Soul Searcher and nice to see you again!

 

[ImperialJohn]

[/size]

I believe all scripture is God-breathed.
This does not rule out the point of view of different men writing.
As the synoptic gospels attest.

You're right of course. When I say scripture I meant anything in the Bible both old and new covenant. Synoptic Gospel is not part of the Bible and not a revelation of G-d or part of the teachings of Christ. We can know this as they are not consistent with the 66 books of the whole Bible.

 

[SkyWriting]

You're right of course. When I say scripture I meant anything in the Bible both old and new covenant. Synoptic Gospel is not part of the Bible and not a revelation of G-d or part of the teachings of Christ. We can know this as they are not consistent with the 66 books of the whole Bible.

That's a very good way to judge information.

"The Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of Mark, and the Gospel of Luke are known as the Synoptic Gospels because they include many of the same stories..."

Beside yourself, are there any groups or organizations that also toss out Matthew, Mark, & Luke?

I've been unable to find any so far.