Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

[Gary777]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

Hi, i've studied this topic for over 20 years. Its not easy, and one reason, imo, is that we look at it from a very earthly point of view, while seeing it from Gods viewpoint gives a whole different picture.

However, here are some points to ponder.

* If the existance of eternal torment in hell is punish eternal sins and bring it to justice, then it means Gods justice is eternally never satisfied. That i think is not scriptual, so its a wrong view of eternal punishment.

*Hell, as in "the kingdom of darkness", or hades, is not eternal. Death itself, with this whole kingdom, will be thrown into the "lake of fire", which speaks about a total destruction of this realm. In other words, scripture says death itself will be destroyed there because God of course is not upholding death for ever. If death is destroyed then this place is literally connected to life somehow. Its called the second death for humans, but thats because death in scripture is basicly defined as change or seperation from former state. So to die a second time is to go from one state (hades) to another (lake of fire). Saints dont die a second time becasue our home is heaven, and we are already seated there. Thos who belong to the present reign of death, will have to die a second time, and so the logic of it is that God wont uphold the kingdfom of death, the power of death over humans, for ever.

* Hell (hades) is not at all made for mankind. As a matter of fact, hell is designed by God and upheld by God, until the judgement, as a prison for fallen beings like satan, fallen angels and demons...evil guys.

* Ppl that die and wake up in hell, is not forced there by God but they go there by free will and by their own nature. According to great apologets like C S Lewis, sinners in hell would probably suffer MORE in Heaven.

* The everlasting hell, meaning the lake of fire or something is not a place ruled by evil inhabited by evil beings. Satan himself is in torment there, because the fire IS God himself. Any of the beings in the fire would increasingly be in torment if they would be brought closer to God against their will.

*Heaven, and the kingdom of heaven, is not a place existing by itself that can be seperated from Jesus. In the end of the day, heaven IS Jesus, and anyplace Jesus is not ruling or totally filling withimself, is not heaven at all. So the view that Jesus is letting certian ppl in and closes other ppl out is not a true picture, because it is actually related to if we know Him or not. Jesus is not only the way into heaven, he is the highpriest, the sacrifice, heaven itself and in fact God himself. This changes a lot of our view about Jesus being the judge of who wil go there or not, because it is actually about himself, not a place we go to or not.

* Many of the places in scripture that describes eternal torment, actually uses a time frame for it. The word aion is very seldom used about eternity, even though it is used in this way in greek literature. F.inst the phrase aion tes aion, eternity of eternaties, totally looses its meaning if aion should be translated eternity, like it is an eternity of eternities. THe right translation is usually age, and aion tes aionos should be age og ages. An age is time restricted, there for the torment in the present hell, is time restrained until a resurection from this place and a final judgement. Those who goes to that judgement (not jstifued belivers, becasue they are already redeemed by faith alone) will not be thrown back into hell, becuase hell itself will go into Gods fire.

* No place in the universe or heavenlies, or dark places, is outside of God. The bible says even in hell, gods presense IS there. (psalms 139 i think. im not taking the time to look up all references here). The notion that anyone ever will be thrown to a place where God is not is foolishness. Noone is ever thrown outside of Gods existance. This changes much of the trad. western view of Hell as an eternal place ruled by active torment. God is not activly tormenting any one, but torment is always caused by the level of darkness humans have brought upon themselves.
Also, God is love, and therefore even the existance of judgement with eternal consecuenses is by love. In other words, it would by unrightous. unlovingly and evil by God to not have and uphold this place after the judgement.

I'm not a annihilst not a universalist either. Theres some things abuot this that i still dont understand, but one singel very important rule to always remember: if our view goes against the basic gospel about jesus blood and in any way is against that God IS love etc, then we know our view is wrong.

Basicly, its a theme that needs more research, and God will willingly give more wisdom and understanding to those who with a pure heart goes after this, in my opinion.

For an ineresting study in these topis, i would recomennd some boks by christian mystics rather than some obvious literalists. I believe everything we belive must be inline with scripture, but literalism can be very unscriptual!! One book would be "visions" by sadhu sundar singh http://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm , and a more recent one, Peter Tans book about the spirit realm: http://spiritword.net/ebooks/The+Spiritual+World.pdf

Good luck.

 

[GenemZ]

When you are in great pain you can not think. The Lake of Fire puts an end to all evil thinking. Since God made the soul and angels to exist forever (created in God's image) he can not make these lives come to non-existence. If he did anything else? All he would allow for is a continuation of hatred and evil planning for escape. Torments short circuits evil and leaves it only concentrating on self, not others.

And, I have reason to believe that the Lake of Fire was God returning judgment as Satan had judged. "Judge not lest ye be judged. As you judge, it shall be done unto you." Satan wanted to burn the Lord up. In turn, he was given as he judged. Will explain if asked.

 

[Korah]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Same here. It would seem that if God created all that is, Universalism necessarily follows. However, you assume God made Hell. See my current thread here in Unorthodox Theology, "Circle of Truth". I've begun my argument there that Satan, an uncreated being, came from a Hell not of God's making.

 

[Korah]

Do you suppose one could be doing God's works, searching after God, striving to be like God, yet the whole time they reject Christianity? Another way of putting it: does truly following God require one to actually know they are following God, does it require them to have correct factual knowledge and correct theology?

I see no one ever answered his question.
Yes, obviously. Though most Christians would answer "No", I assume, unfairly sending billions to Hell.

 

[SkyWriting]

When you are in great pain you can not think. The Lake of Fire puts an end to all evil thinking. Since God made the soul and angels to exist forever (created in God's image) he can not make these lives come to non-existence. If he did anything else? All he would allow for is a continuation of hatred and evil planning for escape. Torments short circuits evil and leaves it only concentrating on self, not others.
...<snip>

So, I think your saying that the lake of fire destroys the "body" and leaves the mind with no distractions such as pain or pleasure. For the unrepentant, they are left with just their thoughts for eternity. I believe that to be the ultimate pain, and entirely fitting for any evil. I believe this is the eternal torment described. "Torture" would be an outside influence.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The problem is that there is no body to destroy it would have long since decayed. Surely you do not believe that God will raise us into a new body just so he can destroy it.

Also keep in mind that this torment happens in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels so should we believe that they will be there watching souls be tormented for eternity? Sounds like they would be in the so called hell if that were the case.

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by beforHim Do you suppose one could be doing God's works, searching after God, striving to be like God, yet the whole time they reject Christianity? Another way of putting it: does truly following God require one to actually know they are following God, does it require them to have correct factual knowledge and correct theology?

I see no one ever answered his question.
Yes, obviously. Though most Christians would answer "No", I assume, unfairly sending billions to Hell.

While we are called to spread the good news, God made His own plans for reaching out to the unsaved. "factual knowledge and correct theology" can come straight from God without human intervention.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities
--his eternal power and divine nature--
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse.

 

[SkyWriting]

The problem is that there is no body to destroy it would have long since decayed. Surely you do not believe that God will raise us into a new body just so he can destroy it.

Also keep in mind that this torment happens in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels so should we believe that they will be there watching souls be tormented for eternity? Sounds like they would be in the so called hell if that were the case.

Jesus appeared resurrected with a new body, though it was not the same. Kind of like the body "you have" when you dream.

 

[SkyWriting]

Same here. It would seem that if God created all that is, Universalism necessarily follows. However, you assume God made Hell. See my current thread here in Unorthodox Theology, "Circle of Truth". I've begun my argument there that Satan, an uncreated being, came from a Hell not of God's making.

Because God decided that it would be better for us to want to be with Him rather than forced to be or created to be with Him.

Those who choose not to are in hell. Both before and after death. The "before death" version is much more enjoyable than the after death version.

 

[SkyWriting]

Theres some things abuot this that i still dont understand, but one singel very important rule to always remember: if our view goes against the basic gospel about jesus blood and in any way is against that God IS love etc, then we know our view is wrong.

For some people "God is Love" means there is no punishment for evil.

I believe everything we believe must be inline with scripture, but literalism can be very unscriptual!! ..

All literalism, in fact all efforts at translation go by the premise that the literal or natural understanding may be the best understanding. The differences come with the level to which people are ready to drop the clear understanding and switch to their personal "enlightened" understanding. Such as "Jesus was not a person. "

 

[Soul Searcher]

Jesus appeared resurrected with a new body, though it was not the same. Kind of like the body "you have" when you dream.

Yes he did but this new body was not to be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed was it? The point is that it would not make any sense to raise someone into a new body just so that body could be destroyed.

Of course I do not believe in enternal punishment of any sort. The whole concept of such a thing is nonsensical at best.

 

[Evergreen48]

Jesus appeared resurrected with a new body, though it was not the same. Kind of like the body "you have" when you dream.

Jesus was not raised with a new body. The same body that died is the one which was resurrected.

Acts 13: 34. "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Psalms 16:9. "Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes he did but this new body was not to be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, was it? The point is that it would not make any sense to raise someone into a new body just so that body could be destroyed.

Lets just assume it's not that hard for God to do.

Of course I do not believe in eternal punishment of any sort. The whole concept of such a thing is nonsensical at best.

Punishment and torment are not the same thing.
And the concept of "eternal" anything is not exactly "sensible".
But the Bible does cover this idea.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

 

[Mobiosity]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

We were discussing this just this morning. We came to the conclusion that Jesus was willing to suffer for us because we, as humans, have trouble accepting that we could be forgiven without payment of some kind. God knows this and Jesus agreed to suffer and die so that we could accept His sacrifice and be saved.

 

[Soul Searcher]

If you present payment then what is left to forgive? As I understand it to forgive someone means no payment needed.

 

[brinny]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

It is written in the Bible, His Word, why.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Punishment and torment are not the same thing.

Actually when speaking of reglious doctorines these are often interchanged so don;t read to much into which word was choosen.

And the concept of "eternal" anything is not exactly "sensible".

Agreed.

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by SkyWriting

Jesus appeared resurrected with a new body, though it was not the same. Kind of like the body "you have" when you dream.

Jesus was not raised with a new body. The same body that died is the one which was resurrected....<snip>

Pretty much.
Except it teleported from place to place, into locked rooms, and flew up into the sky in the end.
Not entirely things my body is capable of.
Resurrection Appearances of Jesus Christ

 

[Evergreen48]

Originally Posted by SkyWriting
Pretty much.
Except it teleported from place to place, into locked rooms, and flew up into the sky in the end.
Not entirely things my body is capable of.
Resurrection Appearances of Jesus Christ

That's true. But then he could do that even before he was resurrected. I believe our bodies would have been capable of such if we had not sinned, and had stayed in perfect harmony with God as Jesus did.

Jesus' body did not fly up in the sky. It was dissolved back into the 'elements.' as ours would have been instead of rotting in the ground, if we had not sinned and had stayed in perfect harmony with God as Jesus did.

 

[martymonster]

Clearly some people don't read their bible.
(If they even own one?)



1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Jesus Christ was raised in a spiritual body, not to mention this.


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.