Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

[martymonster]

Too much has been said already for me to come in and give my two cents. Thus, just want to say I agree totally with the common thread here: God doesn't send anyone to Hell, bvut people do choose to be with themselve forever and not with God.

Read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It'll show you what we're talking about. And
why did Jesus have to die? John Piper wrote a book called "50 Reason why Jesus came to Die". I suggest getting ahold of that book as well. "The Great Divorce" can be found at pretty much any local bookstore, and is really cheap. "50 reasons. . .", though, I've never seen at a bookstore. For both of them, I'd suggest Amazon, and I bet you could get them both (shipping included) for under $10.

If you do want to read them but don't want to spend the money- I've sent books to other people, one book I sent to a guy on these forums. PM me and I'll hook you up.

You ask what did Christ come to die for?


2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.


Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Notice a serious lack of a mention of Him dying to save us from an eternity of torture?

 

[ImperialJohn]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

I do not believe that G-d made hell. I believe it was Lucifer who did upon his rebellion.

G-d didn't make his son suffer, Jesus chose to die for our salvation of his own free will as a mortal man. He lived the perfect sinless life and died on the cross to pay the debt for our sin.

His death on the cross is not a license for us to continue sinning but an opportunity to confess and accept his sacrifice and free gift of salvation.

When we are young if we do something that is wrong our parents would punish us. We would not be able to make any demands for sweets or candy at such a time or to watch television if we are grounded and hadn't done our homework. It is the same with G-d. If we sin intentionally we cut ourselves off from his kingdom, but if we accept Jesus sacrifice and confess our sin and make commitment not to continue sinning then we may be saved. Salvation is a free gift by the grace of G-d but it is conditional.

 

[Paulie079]

I do not believe that G-d made hell. I believe it was Lucifer who did upon his rebellion.

G-d didn't make his son suffer, Jesus chose to die for our salvation of his own free will as a mortal man. He lived the perfect sinless life and died on the cross to pay the debt for our sin.

Ok so these are nit-picky things but where do you find Scriptural basis for those two things? Because I'm not sure if I've yet found a place where the Bible indicates that Lucifer created hell. And there's a passage in Isaiah that actually talks about how God ultimately killed Jesus.

 

[Tavita]

Was Jesus a pagan? He preached Hell fire.

Mark 9:43-48 (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I did say the hell preached 'these days' is a pagan concept. If you would look up the word hell in Greek that Jesus speaks of here, it is Gehenna, which was the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem.. where everything was burned up... ~ criminals included ~. And Jesus was also referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 where hundreds of thousands of Jews were burned in this rubbish pit of Gehenna. It's all a far cry from the pagan/Greek myth of Hades which is preached as gospel truth these days from the pulpit.

 

[xGodsGracex]

You mean many are called, few choose, don't you?

The words are "many are called but few are chosen"

If We are to believe your version of events it would be "Many are called but few choose or many are called but few accept"

That's not what it says thought does it, it says "Many are called but few are chosen"

I'm sure if He had meant "many are called but few choose" He would have said that don't you think?

After all, Christ's words are never idle, He never just says something because He likes the sound of His own voice.

Christ said "Many are called but few are chosen" for a reason and I don't think He would appreciate you twisting their meaning do you?






What are you talking about?

I'm going to quote verbatim now: Matt. 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Where have I twisted anything???

How can you explain what I meant from that?

Wasn't it you the one who said: 'many are called, few choose'? *checks above - yes*

Jesus said exactly what I quoted - meaning God calls many, (they hear him), but few, (as plenty won't deserve it), are chosen.

It is only by God's grace we are saved.

 

[GenemZ]

God can send everyone to Heaven. He can do what he wants.

God can not change and compromise with his holiness. He can not love evil. He can not love unrighteousness. If you are saying he can do what ever he wants, to mean he can love evil? Then God would change. He would not be the same yesterday, today, and forever.

I believe that those who believe God will ultimately save everyone have an apathy towards evil. And, in turn, an apathy towards God's righteousness which rules over his love. They only see an aspect of love, but fail to see with God's love comes discernment demanded by his holiness as to what to love.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come
into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.​

To say God will ultimately save everyone, is to say God will be inviting in eternity greater rebellions than the one had by Satan and his angels. People who see God saving everyone have a desensitized area of their soul where they have an apathy in regards to evil. They do not understand it's depth. Or, some of them may be evil and in sheep's clothing, who are working for an anti-defamation league for evil. After all, we have apologists for the man-boy love group. They see no evil in what they do. All will be saved.

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved to UT from Christian apologetics.

 

[texastig]

Parable!

Jesus conveys spiritual truth by means of a parable. I think it was based on real people.

 

[martymonster]

Jesus conveys spiritual truth by means of a parable. I think it was based on real people.

Well they might well have been real people but so were all the people in the old testament and that was all a parable too.


Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?


Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Mat 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.


Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

 

[texastig]

Well they might well have been real people but so were all the people in the old testament and that was all a parable too.

Are you saying the Old Testament was a parable?

 

[bling]

There are things God cannot do (they are just not possible) and there are things God will not do (lie for one).
It would not be “Loving” of God to “force” His will on independent free will agents that decided to do something else. Heaven is like one huge Love feast; but that “Love” is Godly type Love and some people do not want and have repeatedly refused Godly type Love and only want a selfish type of love. They will not be happy in heaven, but may not be real happy with hell either. The Bible does talk about “degrees of punishment” and sinners do not have eternal life even in hell. On earth sinners can remain, but life on earth is limited for good reason, so where can sinners go?

 

[martymonster]

Are you saying the Old Testament was a parable?

Yep, all a parable!

I didn't say that it didn't really happen though did I?
It most certainly did.

Have you not pondered the spiritual significance of the wall coming down at Jericho or the Joseph and His brother or the story of Adam and Eve or the story of Ruth?

All a parable!


1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Ensamples means types but notice that it doesn't just say that only they themselves were type but that the things that happened to them were types.

Now I'm sure that you have thought of the spiritual significance of Noah's Ark and the flood but why do think that that would be the only type or parable?

Go through the new testament and see how many times the old testament is quoted, and that's the reason.

Paul knew the parables of the old testament and He drew on them to teach all the time.

Here is just one example.


Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


That is just one example I can think of off the top of my head.

Paul wasn't just drawing a comparison here, He knew that that is actually what is talking about.

 

[PeterJohnson123]

Yep, all a parable!

I didn't say that it didn't really happen though did I?
It most certainly did.

Have you not pondered the spiritual significance of the wall coming down at Jericho or the Joseph and His brother or the story of Adam and Eve or the story of Ruth?

All a parable!


1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Ensamples means types but notice that it doesn't just say that only they themselves were type but that the things that happened to them were types.

Now I'm sure that you have thought of the spiritual significance of Noah's Ark and the flood but why do think that that would be the only type or parable?

Go through the new testament and see how many times the old testament is quoted, and that's the reason.

Paul knew the parables of the old testament and He drew on them to teach all the time.

Here is just one example.


Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


That is just one example I can think of off the top of my head.

Paul wasn't just drawing a comparison here, He knew that that is actually what is talking about.

So the great flood was just a story then? If so, the people who claim they found Noah's ark must be really delusional. But then again you are also wrong, because it's all depends on how you interpret the bible. Scriptures cannot interpret itself btw. It's how the person reads the scriptures, and how he interprets it. The thing is, how do you know when it's a metaphor or literal, when stated in the bible?

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally we were put on this earth to live. Because of sin we die. That is the penalty for sin...

Actually, the wages of sin is death.
"Reward", "wages" and "payment" are the 3 translations.

Not penalty given out by a referee. It's much more of a "Cause and effect" thing.

If you Sin (choose to separate from God). then you will die.

 

[martymonster]

So the great flood was just a story then? If so, the people who claim they found Noah's ark must be really delusional. But then again you are also wrong, because it's all depends on how you interpret the bible. Scriptures cannot interpret itself btw. It's how the person reads the scriptures, and how he interprets it. The thing is, how do you know when it's a metaphor or literal, when stated in the bible?

Dude it is a parable but it really happened!

Did you hear Me say that it didn't really happen?

It really happened.

 

[PeterJohnson123]

Dude it is a parable but it really happened!

Did you hear Me say that it didn't really happen?

It really happened.

I would like to refrain from listening to a person that doesn't believe in a hell.

 

[martymonster]

I would like to refrain from listening to a person that doesn't believe in a hell.

Sounds like the idea of billions of people screaming their guts out for all eternity in literal flames sounds pretty important to you.

Are you saying that this will never take place then?


1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by PeterJohnson123

So the great flood was just a story then? If so, the people who claim they found Noah's ark must be really delusional. But then again you are also wrong, because it's all depends on how you interpret the bible. Scriptures cannot interpret itself btw. It's how the person reads the scriptures, and how he interprets it. The thing is, how do you know when it's a metaphor or literal, when stated in the bible?
​

Dude it is a parable but it really happened!
Did you hear Me say that it didn't really happen?
It really happened.

Yes, the scriptures do interpret themselves in most cases.
Additionally, that is the only method available for interpreting language differences. By considering other uses of a word.

All of the parables in the Bible can be considered actual events.

 

[martymonster]

Originally Posted by PeterJohnson123

So the great flood was just a story then? If so, the people who claim they found Noah's ark must be really delusional. But then again you are also wrong, because it's all depends on how you interpret the bible. Scriptures cannot interpret itself btw. It's how the person reads the scriptures, and how he interprets it. The thing is, how do you know when it's a metaphor or literal, when stated in the bible?
​

Yes, the scriptures do interpret themselves in most cases.
Additionally, that is the only method available for interpreting language differences. By considering other uses of a word.

All of the parables in the Bible can be considered actual events.

Are you saying that you take a verse and interpret of itself?

Can you clarify please?

 

[SkyWriting]

Are you saying that you take a verse and interpret of itself?

Can you clarify please?

Context first of the words around the target word or phrase.
Then expanding circles extending finally from the first to the last page of the scriptures.
After and below all that, outside information.

For example:
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

In the search for the "fruit" the passage tells us that apple or pear or pomegranate is not critical. There may have been fruit, but that's not the important issue.