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Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

dollarsbill

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God does indeed punish humans in fire. The NT mentions it several times.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NASB)
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And He doesn't have to ask permission.
 
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strangertoo

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God does indeed punish humans in fire. The NT mentions it several times.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NASB)
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And He doesn't have to ask permission.

you need to read the whole bible to understand about the meaning of 'fire' , all the saints are all bpltised with 'fire' too :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

consider then how the saints get through the fire of thus flaming sword ...

read about the only way to paradise, the third heaven spoken of by Paul ...endless being of the spirit with God :-

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Is Jesus suggesting we buy real gold from him ? ...or wear only white clothes he will sell us one day? ... or that we need to put real ointment in our eyes to be saved ?

then you may like to consider what the fire that tries the saints is , if it is not real fire but symbolic also :-

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

How can one throw 'death' or 'hell' into a literal lake of fire ?

one cannot pick up death or hell and cast them into a fire ...

so consider that it is death and hell ceasing before the word of God that is in our consciences a 'fire' against sin , a burning conflict inside when we sin...

not then that the flaming sword is in the MOUTH of Jesus ... is Jesus a sword-swallower or does it mena the sword is the words Jesus spoke, the word of God ... ?

what is the seal that one has to go through to get to the kingdom, it is spirit baptism once one stops sinning :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so what TRIES our Love which perfects it in trial , it is temptation to sin... and what fights the fire as conscience ? - the Truth of God about what is good [Love] and what is evil [sin]...

so that is what guards the way to the kingdom, we KNOW what the fire is that we have to go through, and it isn't literal fire...

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth

---- would anyone be troubled by a a single censer of fire falling on the ground ?
I do not think so, so it seems likely we must look for what God SIGNIFIES by this ...

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

... are Jesus eyes really on fire, or is it his gaze penetrates , 'burns through one' because of the Truth in him ?

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

are sinners really on fire that they have to be pulled out of a blazing fire around them, or is the sin inside them the fire they don't put out burning against their conscience ?

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

at last the scrpture explains the metaphor of 'fire' , saying 'as it were' , meaning it is not literal... but then we can see it makes no sense if it were literal because of other scripture ...

Jesus says for imstance all are released from hell and death [Rev 20:13] so even if there were fire in hell it would not harm anyone endlessly ... and as I recall many folks are burned up with fire at death anyway ,the body incinerated ... do we think this is a punishment ? ... no it is just cremation ... one cannot hurt a dead body, one cannot punish a dead body , senseless to flog a dead horse or a dead man...

Jesus says we are all freed from hell and daeth, that it is just a SLEEP until resurrection ... no fire except in those cremated and no-one thinks that is punishment ...

and so what of our spirit :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

so the spirit is of God , indestructible even when this earth and ehavens are destroyed by 'fire' ... just as God said let them be, and they were, so God says let them not be and they are gone... again the fire is the word of God and it surely is terrible for all sinners , but that is their choice to sin now, not to repent until the righteous new earth , for many are destroyed and few find the way now [Matt 7:13-14] but later countless many who cleraly were destroyed in the end of this earth are saved [Rev 7:9-10]

so we see too there is no endless fire because the earth and heavens are destroyed ... and there is no fire in hell , only in cremation , and that ends too...

and the lake of fire ? ... well we know that some are still sinners by judgement day although countless many are saved by works after death in the kingdom come in the new earth ...

so some die a second time to free them from sin

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

and we know all have been baptised of the spirit [Joel 2;28]by then as all are freed from hell [Rev 20:13] freed from sin in death and that is all that is required for spirit baptism, to stop sinning :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so they have had the first two baptisms , and only need the third to be saved, baptism of fire in the lake of fire ...

but how do we know that is what it is ?

because Jesus says all will accept him eventually , just as your hope of salvation is in accepting Jesus :-

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

there we have it then , all three baptisms for even the most evil of men come to accept Jesus in the end ... but it is very different what God says in scripture from what sinners teach now, and Jesus even tells us that MUST be so too... :)
 
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martymonster

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God does indeed punish humans in fire. The NT mentions it several times.

Matthew 13:49-50 (NASB)
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And He doesn't have to ask permission.


I'm glad you read your bible because I don't, I just believe what I want to believe and if you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't have known about that verse!
 
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strangertoo

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I'm glad you read your bible because I don't, I just believe what I want to believe and if you hadn't pointed it out I wouldn't have known about that verse!

so what do you think about the verses I quoted from God ?
 
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strangertoo

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To go back to the original question . it is stated very clearly by Jesus that we all shall accept him one day, although most in the next life or even a third life [but no more than three before all have accepted him ] :-

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

thus it is only the religion of sinners that gives 'God' a bad name, creates the stumbling-blocks of diverse false beliefs over which the many fall in THIS life ... when clearly there can only be ONE Truth of God so most religion MUST be WRONG because it is divided...

a quick check with scripture shows it IS almost all wrong .... and that Jesus even said it MUST all go wrong , because the kingdom is not ready until a thousand years into the new earth for the salvation of billions...

so clearly Jesus will save us all as soon as we all DO what he says and Love one another, but that won;t happen in THIS earth , and some have to die twice before death is denied them and they simply continue suffering the misery of each others' sin until they suddenly DECIDE to try Love and find out God was RIGHt all long, loving one another works for each and every one of us ....

not really rocket science, itis obvious that the new earth will be a wonderful place once everyone Loves one another... the question is why is makind so stupid as to try anything else and make ourselves so empty, grey, miserable, unequal, unjust, unpeaceful, troubled, conflicted, lying ... unloving, sinful ?

so God CAN and WILL send us all to the [third] heaven [after this heaven and the new heaven], but CANNOT do so until we CHOOSE to stop sinning against one another ... Gods task then to show us that Love works and sin is short-sighted because it brings misery to all eventually...
 
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dollarsbill

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you need to read the whole bible to understand about the meaning of 'fire' , all the saints are all bpltised with 'fire' too :-
I suggest you take your own advice.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

NOTHING cancels FOREVER.
 
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Timothew

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I suggest you take your own advice.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

NOTHING cancels FOREVER.
You need to read the whole bible and not just keep coming back to the same verse that you think supports your position. Since the rest of the bible says that the wicked perish and are no more, I don't accept one verse, taken out of context from the rest of the bible, that seems to you to be saying God tortures people forever.
 
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dollarsbill

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You need to read the whole bible and not just keep coming back to the same verse that you think supports your position. Since the rest of the bible says that the wicked perish and are no more, I don't accept one verse, taken out of context from the rest of the bible, that seems to you to be saying God tortures people forever.
Still waiting for someone to refute it, and others. Nothing cancels FOREVER.
 
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Timothew

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Nothing cancels FOREVER.
You are right. Nothing cancels out forever. The lost will be destroyed and will remain destroyed forever:
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10a
 
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dollarsbill

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You are right. Nothing cancels out forever. The lost will be destroyed and will remain destroyed forever:
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10a
"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
 
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strangertoo

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"The Apocalypse of John"

Rev 20:10 Young's Literal Translation ...and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

--- and 'apocalypse' means only 'revelation' , and it is the revelation of Jesus Christ, not of John...

Rev 1:1 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

How do we know this from the rest of scripture ?

space-time universes are CREATED , they begin, so there is no infinite past , and they end, so there is no infinite future in each , only by endless creation by God of new universes, new heavens and perhaps new earths...

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 
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strangertoo

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He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

the wages of sin is death... if one stops sinning after one's first death then there is no need for a second death to free one once again from sin :-

Romans 6:23 [Youngs Literal Translation] for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

not then that life is given to every man until the end of time , when all have accepted God's Truth , persuaded over up to three lives that Love is a better way of life for each and every one of us than sinning continually against one another...

the THIRD heaven has no third earth, all are translated to paradise at the end of time in the new earth and heavens ;-

2 Corinthians 12:2 ... such an one caught up to the third heaven.
...
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

but here is the irony of man's fear of death, there is no need of death in principle if one pleases God by not sinning , death for sinners is only the wages of sin ---- death for most saints , as for Jesus, is an act of faith in Love that perfects love to show others not to be afraid of death :-

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
 
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strangertoo

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So you're willing to accept 'the second death' if wrong?

it's not me who is right about the future , it is God , and He tells us ... tells anyone who stops sinning personally [John 16:13] ,but we also have the saints of God and Jesus who tell us what God says about the future ...

so there is no point whatever in listening to sinners , because we know they do not know [which is why I quote the saints and Jesus throughout , or in some cases hope that folks have raed the scripture and know what it says already]

we KNOW from Jesus that ALL CREATION will accept him in the end , all will come to Love one another because that is what Jesus COMMANDS and he will RULE that way in the kingdom come on earth :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

but it is NOT this earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

thus we know it is in the new earth , not on this earth :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

so the heavens pass away after the few are taken [translated, 'raptured'] Matt 7:14, Jude1:14, Rev 7:3-8 ... but that is only tens of thousands of those who stopped sinning [saints] and had PAST sins forgiven by grace [Rom 3:25] ... the wages of those who keep sinning is death , no matter what they SAY they believe , Love is what one does , faith in Love causes Love , saying one has faith in Love is dead without the Love that faith would cause if the faith were true...

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
...
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

if one Loves then one will LOVE ...if one says one Loves but doesn't Love then one is lying , to oneself at least ...

thus the many don't Love in this life and are bound to die [unlike the saints who are only likely to die to perfect their love , but at least live FULL lives , not empty, saints live with happiness from inside despite the world's evil against them and others , and with the blessings of God which can work miracles for anyone prepared to Love, not sin

so ALL the MANY who are still sinners die for sin and are destroyed [Matt 7:13] in the wrth of God, the ned of this earth and heavens ...

but all are resurrected to life from hell and death [Rev 20:13] to be judged at judgement day not by their sin in THIS world, but by their works in the kingdom come , whether they sin again, or have learned to LOVE ... and then MANY are saved [Rev 7:9-10] who clearly were destroyed in this life for sin...

so countless many escape a second death as wages of sin in the kingdom come ...Rev 7:9-10

but what of those who do die a second death for continued sin ? ... they have been freed from sin yet again by their second death :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

and they have been baptised of the spiritbecause God baptises all flesh of the spirit eventually [Joel 2:28]

so all they need is TRIAL to perfect their love, what John the baptist called baptism of 'fire' , resisting temptation to sin... so that is what the lake of 'fire' is for, the final baptism of fire of the very last humans to know God , who sinned in the kingdom come ...

so that is God's poetic justice , the most evil of men have thier easy prey taken away progressively until in the end they suffer evil against themselves because they are isolated from their easy prey... clearly they get the point when they suffer evil instad of profiting from others losses ... God's Loving mercy endures for all time too, men have only to Love, to accept Jesus' COMMAND to Love as KING of kings and HIGH PRIEST of all the perfected Loving priests the new earth kingdom of God come eventually then to all men

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even for 'ever'. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for 'ever and ever.'

so there we have it, God's word that all will accept Jesus in the end and how He will achieve this ... so no-one need fear the firts or second death, but it would be far wiser to stop sinning and never even have to die perhaps , as Enoch never died...

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

'to please God' all one has to do is stop sinning so He can come within and teach one all truth [John 16:13] and then accept trial of one's love to perfect it in life...

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

what MOST do is carry on sinning, listen to the fear stories of sinner priests , never get baptised of the spirit to know from God in this life ...
[Matt 7:14, John 16:13]

so one has to CHOOSE , whetever to believe sinners, or to believe saints, stop sinning, and then believe God in spirit baptism to KNOW all truth and the future from God [John 16:13]

it's a no-brainer really, but almost all men get it WRONG , but if one chose God then one might not die at all, but cerainly one will not die a second death... if one believes sinners then one will surely die once, and if one doesn't believe God in the next life then on will die twice... but even then God's mercy endures because God is Love... Love cannot fail, else God would not be the god of Love... God has the will and means to do ALL His pleasure... the Plan takes a while and two universes [earth and heavens , new earth and new heavens] before ALL raech the third heaven by translation, not death :-

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

death and hell are finite then, they do not last ... there is no endless hell, no endless death, because God is Love... but Love must be freely given else it is not love at all ... so men have to CHOOSE to stop sinning and Love, God can only help when one chooses to try Love... cannot force you to Love, to stop sinning and avoid unnecessary deaths...
 
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