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Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

strangertoo

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you don't think that would offend God, Who gave such a great Sacrifice, as if His Sacrifice was of no account, something He took lightly, like it's no big deal?

My question to you, my brother in Christ, and son of the Most High, the living God, is this:

How enormous WAS the cost that was paid for your sins and mine? :confused:

God made the universe from nothing by just saying it would be
the 'interface' to man, Logos, was there to do the bidding of God

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

that includes all things we see as evil [destructive]

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God has little regard for those who sit on the fence being good sometimes and evil at others :-

Rev 3:14 These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


God has then a USE for evil in bringing rebellious mankind to see that He is right, that evil is BAD FOR US, love is awesomely good for us...

I know, it's VERY COMPLICATED for men to understand, but to God it's simple , if we do what He says and love one another then it pleases Him because that is the beginning of us all being happy and praising Him for His GREAT WISDOM that love is good for us ...

if we sin against one another in unloving manner then we get so sad, empty, vain, unsatisfied with life ever wanting more and never finding what makes us lastingly happy UNTIL we change and stop sinning against fellow man...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

SO VERY HARD for man to accept that we must stop sinning to be loving in obedience to God taht no matter what He says, no matter that He sent Jesus to tell us personally, men still sin and make one another unhappy...

so God MUST let us destroy one another with sin, even kill Jesus and most of His saints and prophets because we love to sin and make one another as unhappy as we are...

it is just TOO MUCH to ACCEPT God's commandment taht we love one another, not sin... that is TOO EASY a way out for clever mankind...

so we destroy our earth for nothing but misery, grey lives, transient pleasures and conflict within in place of lasting bliss from inside , at peace with ourselves ...

but the creator is no QUITTER , He knew the kids would wreck the joint before they grew up to look at what they did and see it wasn't good for anyone... God can forget all that, after all creating new worlds is what He does ... getting us all there, no problem...

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Jesus' suffering showed us the way we bought for ourselves because we messed ourselves up , the way back is only hard because we made it so by not listening in this earth [but for a few -Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8]

sooner or later we all see the sense in what God said all along and accept the way of Christ, just three baptisms back to being wholly loving again, only necessary because of the way we are, we could in principle have all listened to God in the first place, but chose to try another way... that doesn't work...

SUPRPRISE! - God was right after all, and the ONLY way back is the way He said too :-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Folks though don't like that 'and with fire' bit , so lets pretend God is wrong again ... Oh dear ! ... here we go again...

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

NAH! ... its easier to SAY we have faith in Jesus than to perfect our love in trial of our faith in it... maybe God won't notice our continued sin and our condemnation of other sinners for what we still do ourselves ?

Whoopsie... men just don;t learn about God , even with all the suffering they bring on us all by ignoring His wisdom... ouch ... what can one say, men are blind? ...stupid? ... arrogant? ... rebellious? ... or just children who refuse to be told what is good for them and so get into all sorts of things they cannot handle, even kill themselves just to spurn wisdom of loving one another ?
 
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Timothew

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Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

Here's a little known fact, Heaven is actually very small. There simply is not room for all of us in Heaven. I wish I had better news, but that's it. This is also the reason that Angels are so small. Ten thousand angels can dance on the head of a pin. :p
 
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strangertoo

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Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

'angels' comes from the Greek word 'angelos' which means 'messenger' , not 'angel' ... the messengers of God have always been mistaken by most for men, because they are men , just men who can translate and manifest at will because they have perfected love ... but if they sin , they are trapped in the earth until they undergo all three baptisms required of men before translation [salvation]:-

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

unsurprisingly most folks don't even get past the first baptism , water baptism, dying to sin , changing our ways to loving ways instead of abusing one another in sin...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so it is unsurprising that few receive all truth from God in spirit baptism [John 16:13] so very few make it in this life [Matt 7:14] to even begin having their love trialled by fire of keeping God's truth about love under intense temptation by Satan , as Jesus showed us is the only way ...

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

that is trial of faith in love, in God, not trial of faith in sinners as is instigated by churches of sinners on hapless folks who believe what sinners say ...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16 ... he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

as for the size of heaven, it has no size, it is not part of physical space ... simply a metaphorical idea of assigning a 'home' to teh spirit which created physical space-time [so is in neither since it is logically prior to space and time] ...
 
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Timothew

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Here's a little known fact, Heaven is actually very small. There simply is not room for all of us in Heaven. I wish I had better news, but that's it. This is also the reason that Angels are so small. Ten thousand angels can dance on the head of a pin. :p
Here is a prooftext of my new thesis that heaven is very small and we don't all fit:
1 Kings 8:27 (Taken completely out of context)
"Heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you."
^_^
 
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razzelflabben

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you don't think that would offend God, Who gave such a great Sacrifice, as if His Sacrifice was of no account, something He took lightly, like it's no big deal?

My question to you, my brother in Christ, and son of the Most High, the living God, is this:

How enormous WAS the cost that was paid for your sins and mine? :confused:
One thing a lot of people miss is that hell was not created for man, but for the fallen angels...as best as we know, the only place created specifically for man is this earth, and the new heaven and earth that are to come....just a thought...that doesn't mean that God won't use hell for men, but that He didn't create them for one another.
 
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Timothew

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One thing a lot of people miss is that hell was not created for man, but for the fallen angels...as best as we know, the only place created specifically for man is this earth, and the new heaven and earth that are to come....just a thought...that doesn't mean that God won't use hell for men, but that He didn't create them for one another.
The word that is translated as hell in the old testament is Sheol. Sheol means the grave, the common fate of everyone who dies. It may be that Sheol was created for the fallen angels, and man was meant to live forever, but sin changed that and death entered the world through sin. We can be resurrected from Sheol by faith in Jesus Christ. I know that He will not leave His faithful servants in Sheol.
 
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Soulgazer

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you don't think that would offend God, Who gave such a great Sacrifice, as if His Sacrifice was of no account, something He took lightly, like it's no big deal?

My question to you, my brother in Christ, and son of the Most High, the living God, is this:

How enormous WAS the cost that was paid for your sins and mine? :confused:
Think about it. People suffer pain and torture every day; Torture and execution chambers are filled with innocent people all around the world.
I'm not diminishing the sacrifice of Christ at all--- However the sad fact is that there is nothing extraordinary about an innocent being executed.
Dying? Which of us has an immortal body? There is nothing extraordinary about dying.

However, there is a sacrifice that the Christ made that no one else could make. He chose to come into the world of forms, leaving His perfect place in the heavens, to take on death as a robe with the rest of us, to teach us who the Father really is, to rescue us from the thieves and robbers. He didn't have to do that.

Yes, He was killed. However, He got to push the reset button. You think Christ paid a blood price because of an angry Jealous God who demands blood? If the death of one pays the price for the sins of billions, what happens if the "sacrifice" refuses to stay dead? Was God fooled?

Two thousand years have passed since Jesus spent three hours on the cross. Is it still fresh in His mind, or has He been busy with other things? Maybe He was waiting on that device to go back to His perfect home?
Once He got back home, did He consider it a sacrifice to be there?

Or was it the teachings, that if followed, allow you to tread a path to perfection? If He had not died a martyrs death, would anybody even remember Him? Or would He have become another Confusious, with words of wisdom that fit in a fortune cookie?

Just thinking.
 
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strangertoo

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One thing a lot of people miss is that hell was not created for man, but for the fallen angels...as best as we know, the only place created specifically for man is this earth, and the new heaven and earth that are to come....just a thought...that doesn't mean that God won't use hell for men, but that He didn't create them for one another.

there is rather convincing evidence that 'angels' [really a mistranslation, simply transliterating the Greek 'angelos' into English] really just means 'messengers'... and God's messngers appear on earth [manifest] as men , just as Jesus was a man manifest from the 'right-hand covering cherub', Logos :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

the messengers of God look just like men then ...why? ... because they are men ...men who can manifest and translate , seeming to appear and disappear from what to us is 'our world' perhaps ...

but we can translate too once we perfect our love ... and messengers that sin, like Satan himself, get trapped in the physical , like most men , who are sinners all their lives, die as wages of sin...

so it is interesting to note that men went to be with God from the beginning , not all men have died , nor does anyone need to see death necessarily if they stop sinning and perfect their Love...

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
 
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dollarsbill

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Hell is indeed a literal, eternal place. It is so horrifying that Jesus said it is better to chop off body parts than to go there.

Mark 9:43 (NASB)
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
 
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strangertoo

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Hell is indeed a literal, eternal place. It is so horrifying that Jesus said it is better to chop off body parts than to go there.

Mark 9:43 (NASB)
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Jesus did go there, and didn't need to chop off his arms [literally or figuratively] because he didn't sin in life :-

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

--- as for unquenchable fires ,such as in Sodom and Gomorrah , they go out by themselves when they run out of fuel, no-one has to quench them... there is no fire today where S and G once were...

so , if one is determined to die , then the trick is to stop sinning in life before death , then you will not need to do any more than Jesus did in hell, wait for resurrection... but then there is no need to die as wages of sin if one stops sinning , Jesus and the saints died for the Truth which makes one's visit to hell a thousand years shorter...

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

so you see, everyone is released from hell and death , even all the sinners of this earth ...

and whilst FEW [tens of thousands only -Jude 1:14] find the way now and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14, countless many of the many destroyed are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] ...

so it is as well to notice that the MANY are saved by works [Rev 20:13] in the next life , not at Jesus' return when he takes the FEW [Rev 7:3-8] to be just the kings and priests in the kingdom, the many sinners of THIS earth will thus be its population , many saved at judgement day by works then [Rev 7:9-10]

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

note though that the kingdom is NOT in THIS earth [except within the hearts and minds of the FEW saints] :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

so the kingdom come is in the new earth and after a thousand years preparation to perfect the few saints for ministering to billions just as Jesus ministered to them in this life , they save countless billions by persuading them to TRY Love and see that God did not lie, Love is the BEST way to live, not sin....

the wages of sin are death , the wages of love are endless freedom of the spirit :-

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

NO-ONE has to die necessarily , but to avoid death one must at least stop sinning in life ... the wages of continued sin is always death , because death is the way most folks are freed from sin ...

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
 
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dollarsbill

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Jesus did go there, and didn't need to chop off his arms because he didn't sin in life :-
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Most English Bibles do not say 'hell'. Why would He go to Hell if He was sinless?
--- as for unquenchable fires ,such as in Sodom and Gomorrah , they go out by themselves when they run out of fuel, no-one has to quench them... there is no fire today where S and G once were...
The unquenchable fire was after the physical destruction of Sodom. The eternal fire.
so , if one is determined to die , then the trick is to stop sinning in life before death , then you will not need to do any more than Jesus did in hell, wait for resurrection... but then there is no need to die as wages of sin if one stops sinning , Jesus and the saints died for the Truth which makes one's visit to hell a thousand years shorter...
Problem is the NT says that the punishment in eternal fire is indeed eternal, NEVER ending.

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

so you see, everyone is released from hell and death , even all the sinners of this earth ...
If you had read a little farther you would have found:

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
and whilst FEW [tens of thousands only -Jude 1:14] find the way now and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14, countless many of the many destroyed are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] ...
You are giving assurance that the Bible does not. It's this life, or NEVER.
so it is as well to notice that the MANY are saved by works [Rev 20:13] in the next life , not at Jesus' return when he takes the FEW [Rev 7:3-8] to be just the kings and priests in the kingdom, the many sinners of THIS earth will thus be its population , many saved at judgement day by works then [Rev 7:9-10]
Sorry but that's just not true.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

Good question.

1. God did not make an eternally burning hell - rather He "will make" the "Lake of Fire" that you find in Revelation 20. It will not be lit up for humans until the end of the millennium.

In Matt 10:28 Jesus says that fiery hell (the Lake of Fire as John calls it) will "destroy BOTH body and soul". But there will be a time of torment and suffering in the lake of fire before one is entirely destroyed.

2. God made sinless deathless perfect conditions for the Angels. and He also gave them free will. His Laws run the universe and govern the moral actions of all intelligent life in that Universe. Thus they had the ability to choose to remain loyal or to rebel and suffer death. Lucifer at some point chose rebellion and then deceived 1/3 of the angels into choosing rebellion along with him.

How sad for his "followers".

3. God made Adam and Eve in a sinless deathless, perfect Paradise - free to rule the earth and walk with God so long as they chose obedience otherwise they were informed that certain death would result from rebellion. Lucifer convinced Eve to choose rebellion. Adam out of his love for Eve chose to suffer her fate.

4. God decides that instead of utterly destroying the human rebels - he would open a door of salvation to him at almost infinite cost to Himself. He must die on the cross as mankind's substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

God is "Just and the justifier of him who diligently seeks after God".

The reason that God decides to honor the penalty demanded by the law (the suffering and death demanded for each sin of each human in all of time) -- suffering that penalty "Himself" is that the Universe would be chaos without Law.

The Law of God was upheld at the cross -- and it also opened a door of salvation for lost humanity.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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strangertoo

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Most English Bibles do not say 'hell'. Why would He go to Hell if He was sinless?

everyone goes to 'hell' ['hades' in Greek, 'sheol' in Hebrew] at death , it is the [invisible] state or 'place' of the dead ... but of course taht is just a manner of speaking ... the spirit of a man always 'returns to God' who gave it, at death...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
the biblical concept of 'hell' is thus very different from the popular myths of mass religion of sinners [not saints yet]

as the bible says, teh only 'punishment' for sin is death , its 'wages', and that only to free men from sin so that they can be persuaded later to Love and be saved in spirit baptsm and trial to perfect Love after ceasing from sin :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The unquenchable fire was after the physical destruction of Sodom. The eternal fire.

the scripture explains what the 'fire' of God is , it comes from conscience ... clearly all physical fires go out when they run out of fuel, and equally clear from scripture is that God destroys this universe utterly in the wrath of God, including all its fires... so all fires end except the fire inside taht comes from teh truth of God about Love being the best way to live, and that burns deep inside every soul until we do Love, stop sinnng , and come alive so the fire burns in our eyes [as with Jesus] and we have life more abundantly simply by loving others as Jesus commands rather than sinning continualy all our lives, never repenting and so ceasing to sin ...

Problem is the NT says that the punishment in eternal fire is indeed eternal, NEVER ending.

the word 'aionios' in the original Greek doesn't mean 'eternal' but menas for an age , [hence the word aeon for a long period of time] ... modern Physics reveals that there is no infinity of time anyway, time was created INTEGRAL to our space-tme universe and ends when God destroys it ... rather conclusive PROOF that the word 'eternal' for time did not come from God but from human misunderstanding ... God is time-less, without time, unchanging, not existing in an infinity of time, there is a BIG difference... sadly the bible was translated by sinners, not saints ...

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the age-lasting fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into age-lasting punishment, but the righteous into age-lastingl life."
If you had read a little farther you have found

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I have raed and quoted that scripture here MANY times alraedy ....:)

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

true enough, but do you understand baptism of fire [of saints] , as in the lake of fire ? [the trial of Love which perfects it after ceasing sin, as in death,- and receiving the spirit of truth , as comes to ALL eventually -Joel 2:28]

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

You are giving assurance that the Bible does not. It's this life, or NEVER.

that is contradicted by Jesus ... we KNOW few are saved in this life and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] , but that the spirit returns to God and ALL are resurrected from hell and death [Rev 20:13] and LATER countless MANY are saved [Rev 7:9-10] ... Jesus' words prove that most folks are saved in the next life in the kingdom come at judgement day, not at his return ... only sinner preach otherwise ,not saints or scripture of Jesus...

Sorry but that's just not true.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

again the word 'forever' is a mistranslation by sinners of teh original, which means 'for an age',,, Einstein PROVED there is no 'forever' of time in this universe... God destroys time when He destroys this universe :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 
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dollarsbill

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everyone goes to 'hell' ['hades' in Greek, 'sheol' in Hebrew] at death , it is the [invisible] state or 'place' of the dead ... but of course taht is just a manner of speaking ... the spirit of a man always 'returns to God' who gave it, at death...
Hell is the eternal fire that torments forever. Is that where you're going?

Matthew 5:29 (NASB)
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
the biblical concept of 'hell' is thus very different from the popular myths of mass religion of sinners [not saints yet]

as the bible says, teh only 'punishment' for sin is death , its 'wages', and that only to free men from sin so that they can be persuaded later to Love and be saved in spirit baptsm and trial to perfect Love after ceasing from sin :-
That contradicts the NT.

Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
the word 'aionios' in the original Greek doesn't mean 'eternal' but menas for an age , [hence the word aeon for a long period of time] ... modern Physics reveals that there is no infinity of time anyway, time was created INTEGRAL to our space-tme universe and ends when God destroys it ... rather conclusive PROOF that the word 'eternal' for time did not come from God but from human misunderstanding ... God is time-less, without time, unchanging, not existing in an infinity of time, there is a BIG difference... sadly the bible was translated by sinners, not saints ...
In the verses I just quoted 'eternal' life and 'eternal' punishment use the exact same Greek word. Eternal life does not end and neither does eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:41, 46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the age-lasting fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into age-lasting punishment, but the righteous into age-lastingl life."

I have raed and quoted that scripture here MANY times alraedy ....:)

true enough, but do you understand baptism of fire [of saints] , as in the lake of fire ? [the trial of Love which perfects it after ceasing sin, as in death,- and receiving the spirit of truth , as comes to ALL eventually -Joel 2:28]
This is not about the saints. It is about the lost. Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Not the same thing. The Lake of Fire will torment forever.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
that is contradicted by Jesus ... we KNOW few are saved in this life and the MANY are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14] , but that the spirit returns to God and ALL are resurrected from hell and death [Rev 20:13] and LATER countless MANY are saved [Rev 7:9-10] ... Jesus' words prove that most folks are saved in the next life in the kingdom come at judgement day, not at his return ... only sinner preach otherwise ,not saints or scripture of Jesus...
Again, you are giving false hope. If we die lost we are lost forever.
again the word 'forever' is a mistranslation by sinners of teh original, which means 'for an age',,, Einstein PROVED there is no 'forever' of time in this universe... God destroys time when He destroys this universe :-
Nearly every English Bible agrees with 'forever'.
 
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Timothew

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dollarsbill said:
In the verses I just quoted 'eternal' life and 'eternal' punishment use the exact same Greek word. Eternal life does not end and neither does eternal punishment.
The adjective "eternal" is the same, αἰώνιον. The nouns that αἰώνιον descibe are different. One group goes to ζωὴν αἰώνιον, and the other group goes to κόλασιν αἰώνιον. One group goes to LIFE eternal, and the other does not. One group goes to Punishment (literally, a cutting off) eternal, and the other does not. The eternal punishment is death, because the wages of sin is death. They can't go off to eternal life being tortured, because they are not in the group that received eternal life.
The opposite of eternal life is not eternal life being tortured. The opposite of eternal life is death.
 
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dollarsbill

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The adjective "eternal" is the same, αἰώνιον. The nouns that αἰώνιον descibe are different. One group goes to ζωὴν αἰώνιον, and the other group goes to κόλασιν αἰώνιον. One group goes to LIFE eternal, and the other does not. One group goes to Punishment (literally, a cutting off) eternal, and the other does not. The eternal punishment is death, because the wages of sin is death. They can't go off to eternal life being tortured, because they are not in the group that received eternal life.
The opposite of eternal life is not eternal life being tortured. The opposite of eternal life is death.
All our English Bibles are wrong and you are right? Hmm
 
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Timothew

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Be specific. Which verses?

And why do you keep quoting YOUR translation if they are correct?
I usually quote the NASB. Great bible. Sometimes I quote the NIV. Also Great. I quote the Greek Byzantine NT a lot, but that is not my translation. Sometimes I quote the United Bible Society's 4th edition of the Greek New Testament, but that is not my translation either. That's what I quoted in my last reply to you, The reason I quoted that one is because the source I got it from includes the accent marks, and I wanted to be precise. A few of the greek words are ambiguous if the accents are not included, and I didn't want to take the chance of being wrong when I replied to your post. Of course κολασιν and ζωην are not included in these words. I supplied a translation just because not everyone reads greek. It was a courtesy. My point doesn't depend on my translation.

Here, I will repost my point without "my" translation.
The adjective αἰώνιον is the same. The nouns that αἰώνιον descibe are different. One group goes to ζωὴν αἰώνιον, and the other group goes to κόλασιν αἰώνιον. One group goes to ζωὴν αἰώνιον, and the other does not. One group goes to κόλασιν αἰώνιον, and the other does not.
 
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