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Why BELIEVE, shouldn't we KNOW?

pocaracas

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I agree that faith should be "knowing" 100% for sure. The Bible says not to be luke-warm; you should not doubt your salvation.


So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:16

Indeed, you should know. But all you know is what other people tell you, either orally, or through books they write.
And, because of that, you either believe these people and their claims, or don't.
That's where I think "belief" comes from. Believing other people.

I also believe that anyone can be saved until the very last minutes of their lives, like the thief that was crucified on the cross next to jesus.

Which reminds of the SuperGOD comic strip:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_A-vyUTJnOjc/R_G6AIsyiXI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/kK4tk1nBqvk/s1600/SupergodWeb.jpg

I don't believe 100% that I'm saved but I don't believe that I'm going to be spit out.

Returning to the life that I led before seeking Christ is impossible...it's terrifying to even presume that it's possible because the terror that I feel is unbearable and would never want to feel that ever again.

The fear of God prevents me from returning to living a life without seeking God, so I suppose I CAN say that I am saved.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 1:1

Nobody can ever be as wise as the Lord; he is wisdom.

That feeling is what I think separates believers from non-believers.
Those who feel that, believe, those who don't, don't believe.
From my non-believer point of view, that feeling is just something in your psyche that requires that "big-brother" always watching, always protecting you. If you feel good about that, please continue.
I wouldn't like that sort of control over me... Gravity and other natural "laws" are enough.
 
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pocaracas

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Red herring. People are either honest or dishonest. When people record their accounts and their thoughts, they can do so in an honest or dishonest manner. When people record honest accounts of Jesus Christ and their experience and thoughts with Him I do take it seriously. Therefore, those who claim in total honesty to have had experiences with God are more authority in my opinion than those who claim in all honesty to not have had experiences with God. Furthermore I speak honestly about my own experiences with God and I do not believe I am wrong in doing so. Do you see why I believe what the Bible says instead of what some atheist says against the Bible and my own testimony? If you can't see the truth for what it is, why do you think I should respect your opinion? This is exactly what you say about those who contribute to the knowledge of God, except it is vice-versa.
People can be honest and still lie.
Remember the old saying, if you tell a lie enough times, it becomes truth.
I think it's very possible that such a thing has happened throughout the ages and, in the case of the new testament, in a somewhat short time.
Perhaps dishonestly at first, but honestly after one or two generations...

Then you have the concept of "truth".
You'll notice religious people tend to use that word: truth.
Atheists tend to like the word: reality.
Do you know the difference between them?
 
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oi_antz

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People can be honest and still lie.
Remember the old saying, if you tell a lie enough times, it becomes truth.

I think it's very possible that such a thing has happened throughout the ages and, in the case of the new testament, in a somewhat short time.
Perhaps dishonestly at first, but honestly after one or two generations...
You are of course entitled to hold that opinion, but I would say that Peter would turn in his grave, as would a good deal of other disciples.
Then you have the concept of "truth".
You'll notice religious people tend to use that word: truth.
Atheists tend to like the word: reality.
Do you know the difference between them?
Excellent question! I have never thought of that before. I think when an atheist uses the term "reality" he is describing his understanding of the observable carnal realm. I think when a religious person uses the term truth he is describing what is correct. In terms of truth about God the observable carnal evidence is hard to trap, but it happens. What I have observed with God though is in order for faith to succeed there must always be an realistic explanation, what atheist's call "rational explanation". There is one that really gets me though, you might have already heard me mention it. Once we drove for an hour to meet this healer who healed the leg of a lady. Her left leg was four inches shorter than the her right leg and she hobbled up, put her legs on the chair in front of her. Then the guy put his hand on her leg, uttered a few words in Jesus' name and we all prayed in agreement with him and I witnessed this lady's leg grow to the same length as the other. She could walk without hobbling, no pain and far too coincidental not to be an answered prayer. What do you think I should believe, with me believing that I know the truth about Jesus and now knowing the reality of miracles, should I not believe that God is real even if we can't capture evidence of His existence in the carnal realm? Does science have an explanation for the reality of miracles such as that one? (I'm sure such miracles happen all the time around the world).
 
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pocaracas

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You are of course entitled to hold that opinion, but I would say that Peter would turn in his grave, as would a good deal of other disciples.
Perhaps not... perhaps they're turning around because of everything christians have been doing throughout the centuries... We'll just never know.
oi_antz said:
Excellent question! I have never thought of that before.
Ah, the damn atheist got you to think! :D
oi_antz said:
I think when an atheist uses the term "reality" he is describing his understanding of the observable carnal realm.
I prefer the term physical realm, but ok.
oi_antz said:
I think when a religious person uses the term truth he is describing what is correct. In terms of truth about God the observable carnal evidence is hard to trap, but it happens.
Truth is, in a nutshell, the subjective view of reality by an individual.
You can find the long version on wikipedia. ;)
oi_antz said:
What I have observed with God though is in order for faith to succeed there must always be an realistic explanation, what atheist's call "rational explanation". There is one that really gets me though, you might have already heard me mention it. Once we drove for an hour to meet this healer who healed the leg of a lady. Her left leg was four inches shorter than the her right leg and she hobbled up, put her legs on the chair in front of her. Then the guy put his hand on her leg, uttered a few words in Jesus' name and we all prayed in agreement with him and I witnessed this lady's leg grow to the same length as the other. She could walk without hobbling, no pain and far too coincidental not to be an answered prayer. What do you think I should believe, with me believing that I know the truth about Jesus and now knowing the reality of miracles, should I not believe that God is real even if we can't capture evidence of His existence in the carnal realm? Does science have an explanation for the reality of miracles such as that one? (I'm sure such miracles happen all the time around the world).
I see you've witnessed a miracle.. or a hoax. Did you know that woman prior to that "healing session"?
Bone does not grow like that.. so it would have been a miracle. But she would also require some physical therapy to learn how to properly walk. Did god convey her the almost subconscious knowledge of walking? it's possible, being god and all...
But I've heard of a lot of shows where "ministers" allegedly heal someone who can't walk or can't see or whatever and there, right in front of everyone, they are miraculously healed, cured and manage to live the rest of their lives like normal folks.
We should send war vets who actually lost limbs to those shows and see how those ministers work on them.
Again, skeptical thinking. If it sounds too good to be true, it's probably NOT true! Not real... as much as you want it to be true and claim it as true because you yourself saw it... it wasn't real (maybe). Hoaxes like that have been used for years and years, there are even parodies about them.
 
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pocaracas

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No, I'm pretty sure that if I witness something and speak about it for 50 years that I can still speak about it without distorting it. Have you researched this? It's quite commonly agreed that these are reliable accounts. Here's a link to check: When were the gospels written and by whom? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
You know the problem with the multitude of religions?
They end up fighting each other. Check this, regarding your little link which is riddle with holes:
Matt Slick EXPOSED and REFUTED CARM False Gospel
 
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bling

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See the part i put in bold? I don't understand why should I desire such a creator.
It's not a logical step in your sequence.
The step should be something like "search a means to relieve this burden" > "perhaps stop hurting others and start helping them" > you provide charity to others...
:confused:
Remember: God is doing all He can to help you to accept His charity.

If you do not “need” to believe (trust) in a benevolent Creator than you can avoid putting your faith in a benevolent Creator. You can believe (trust) that the universe and life was a random result, since it would make no difference unless you had a real “need” to believe in a benevolent God.

If you have nothing to loss and a lot to be gained by believing would that not make it easier to believe, since you are going to believe something?

Atheist may say “I do not believe anything”, but practically they act like; they “believe” the Christian God does not exist and for most of my discussions with them, do not want or like the Christian God, so they have reason not to believe.

You will find you are on a “need to know bases” and if it would “upset” you to know, God will not upset you since all He want to do is help you.
 
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pocaracas

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Remember: God is doing all He can to help you to accept His charity.

If you do not “need” to believe (trust) in a benevolent Creator than you can avoid putting your faith in a benevolent Creator. You can believe (trust) that the universe and life was a random result, since it would make no difference unless you had a real “need” to believe in a benevolent God.

If you have nothing to loss and a lot to be gained by believing would that not make it easier to believe, since you are going to believe something?

Atheist may say “I do not believe anything”, but practically they act like; they “believe” the Christian God does not exist and for most of my discussions with them, do not want or like the Christian God, so they have reason not to believe.

You will find you are on a “need to know bases” and if it would “upset” you to know, God will not upset you since all He want to do is help you.
First, an atheist, as the word implies, does not believe that a god exists. He may and does believe other things, such as believe his wife is not having an affair.

And we just assume there is no god, christian, jew, muslim, hindu, egyptian, norse, or other. No god whatsoever. On this forum, we may (ok, we do) focus on pointing out some peculiarities of the christian god which don't make sense, even assuming he does exist.

The universe and life were random results which happened, because here we are. I don't see a need to introduce a benevolent divine figure to explain those things... even if I can't provide an explanation for them.
I have no data to ascertain what the odds are of generating a big bang, or a Universe which seems to have been generated in a big bang. Who knows if there aren't billions and billions (or even infinite other universes) each originated in a big bang? Even if there are, I can't imagine any way to find them. I don't think even the particle physicists can, nor astrophysicists, nor any other...
Or maybe there is just one, which happened to come into existence by some strange phenomenon which we don't yet have the ability to probe... and probably never will.
Yet, in spite of all these unknowns, I prefer to keep looking, keep searching for the answers to them, instead of just assuming it was a being which some people claim did it. And they have been claiming it for thousands of years.... how would they have found out about that being?
 
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oi_antz

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Perhaps not... perhaps they're turning around because of everything christians have been doing throughout the centuries... We'll just never know.
That is a true statement but it doesn't let you off the hook.
Ah, the damn atheist got you to think! :D
Hey, that's not very nice. Don't you realize that Jesus makes us think far harder than anyone else can? Anyway, everyone thinks, even children. The only difference between a Christian thinker and an atheist thinker is what information we hold credible or not.
I prefer the term physical realm, but ok.
.
Truth is, in a nutshell, the subjective view of reality by an individual.
You can find the long version on wikipedia. ;)
Interesting use of the word. I had presumed you were referring to "absolute truth" but now I see the distinction. Thanks!
I see you've witnessed a miracle.. or a hoax. Did you know that woman prior to that "healing session"?
Bone does not grow like that.. so it would have been a miracle. But she would also require some physical therapy to learn how to properly walk. Did god convey her the almost subconscious knowledge of walking? it's possible, being god and all...
But I've heard of a lot of shows where "ministers" allegedly heal someone who can't walk or can't see or whatever and there, right in front of everyone, they are miraculously healed, cured and manage to live the rest of their lives like normal folks.
We should send war vets who actually lost limbs to those shows and see how those ministers work on them.
Again, skeptical thinking. If it sounds too good to be true, it's probably NOT true! Not real... as much as you want it to be true and claim it as true because you yourself saw it... it wasn't real (maybe). Hoaxes like that have been used for years and years, there are even parodies about them.
Hmmm, I think your accusations that Christ's disciples are dishonest is one of the biggest problems you have in accepting the truth about God. Don't you know that God hates liars? Christ's disciples do know this, it doesn't make any sense to say that God's people are lying for His sake. I feel that you need to think about this a bit more.
 
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oi_antz

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You know the problem with the multitude of religions?
They end up fighting each other. Check this, regarding your little link which is riddle with holes:
Matt Slick EXPOSED and REFUTED CARM False Gospel
I would have used the word "ideology" instead of "religion". On a daily basis I witness atheist's fighting religious people far more severely than religious people fighting each other. I really don't know why atheist's hate religion so much, I suspect it is because they are offended by some of the quotes of religious people. Is this correct? Also, just so you know that disagreements in the church are attributed to immaturity in faith. Here's how Paul summarized it:

3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

See, this is the problem, these people who fight each other in order to be "correct" are so concerned with their own sense of pride that they aren't focusing on doing their job.
 
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pocaracas

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That is a true statement but it doesn't let you off the hook.
nor some ministers...
Hey, that's not very nice. Don't you realize that Jesus makes us think far harder than anyone else can? Anyway, everyone thinks, even children. The only difference between a Christian thinker and an atheist thinker is what information we hold credible or not.
Sorry about that. I didn't mean to be mean.
I meant it with a little bit of sarcasm, but mostly joking, hence the smiley face. ;)
Peace!
.

Interesting use of the word. I had presumed you were referring to "absolute truth" but now I see the distinction. Thanks!
"absolute truth"? How is that different from plain truth?

Hmmm, I think your accusations that Christ's disciples are dishonest is one of the biggest problems you have in accepting the truth about God. Don't you know that God hates liars? Christ's disciples do know this, it doesn't make any sense to say that God's people are lying for His sake. I feel that you need to think about this a bit more.
Imagine you claim to a few people that a very good friend of yours taught you to use peace and love as "weapons" to end some constant battles that happen in your town, in your country. And this love flows from god to humanity.
Now, remember, your listeners are jews.
How many will listen to you and how many will just turn away?
But you want to be listened so you think the best way to make the message stick is if you add a little flourish.... miracles that your friend performed "in plain sight of some 5000 people on one occasion... it was a marriage. He didn't want to, but his mother, that kind, pure soul... purest of purest begged him to perform that miracle."
Now you've got your audience's attention.
Now you can talk about what he really taught you.

Remember that jesus's disciples (in my example, you're one of them!) are always described as simple people, who didn't know much about the world, nor about writing or reading. And they were left in charge of conveying this grand message to as many people as possible. A momentous task which they tried and, eventually, succeeded.

I'm not saying it happened like this, but... if it did, it would have taken a very short time to reach the format which has reached us.

You say god hates liars, but remember that these people were, essentially, jews. Their main rules were the 10 commandments. There's no commandment which states "thou shall not lie". There one that states "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor", but that is (or can be) different.

I'd really like to think that everyone who is a minister, or priest at christian services does speak the complete truth.
There are ministers whose only goal is money. They may even not believe a word of what they say, but they know the people believe it if you say it in a special way. Many, if not most, televangelists are the perfect example of this.
So, yes, it is completely possible that "God's people are lying for His sake"... at least people who claim to be god's people.


I would have used the word "ideology" instead of "religion". On a daily basis I witness atheist's fighting religious people far more severely than religious people fighting each other. I really don't know why atheist's hate religion so much, I suspect it is because they are offended by some of the quotes of religious people. Is this correct? Also, just so you know that disagreements in the church are attributed to immaturity in faith.
Yes, I agree with your word... "Ideology" fits much better than "religion". :) I sometimes forget the proper words... :( bad wiring in my brain, I guess.
You know why an atheist becomes a more severe opponent?
Because he's appalled at religious people's obsession with one book and one fixed point of view about that book.
And he tries and tries to get those people to see and understand that detail. He points it out to them.... but they still obsess.
And you want to know why atheists hate religion?
Because people who obsess that much about one book and believe what it says are excellent to turn into terrorists... the kind that kill other people(I know islam is more widely viewed as the source of such terrorism, but it's not that uncommon for christians to violently express their views on some aspects of society, like abortions, gays, etc... In the US, some have gone all the way and murdered a doctor which performed abortions). Of course, luckily, only a very small, tiny fraction of believers actually commit such crimes.
Atheists also hate that religion dictates the believers' lives. On most civilized countries, you don't really notice it. there's the occasional person who thinks they should only have sex after getting married, and you have to go to mass every Sunday (curiously, not the Sabbath, Saturday, like it says in the ten commandments... heck, as long as it's one day, every seven, right?). But there are some places where local religious leaders suggest rules which make no sense. In much of south America and Africa, the use of condoms is forbidden by the church. And that is the official position of the catholic church: never use condoms. In their view, a man and a woman only have sex after being married and only with the express purpose of procreating. Of course, if you follow that rule, it doesn't make sense to use the condom. You're actually trying to have kids, not preventing it...
But then reality comes crashing down.
People don't have sex just to make babies. They do it to have some fun, enjoy themselves. It's a pleasurable thing. And, knowing you'll get that pleasure, you try to get it as often as possible! :)
And in those places I mentioned, things are difficult, AIDS and other diseases are rampant because of prostitution is widespread (if your wife doesn't want it, there's a hooker who does and if you beat her, you may get away with not paying for the service).
But then the priests tell the people not to use condoms.... but they can't say it just like that - if you tell me not to do it, I'll do it for sure. They add a little bit of awesome: the latex in the condoms has holes and these holes are enough for HIV to pass through, but not enough for sperm to go through, so why bother using the condom?
In a way, it's true. Latex in condoms does have holes in it's structure. Very small holes, with a size of the order of the virus's. But the virus is in a liquid, mostly composed by water and, I don't know if you've ever tried, but you can fill a condom with air, just like a balloon. Air is essentially Oxygen and Nitrogen, each composed by two atoms, O2 and N2. Now, if two atoms is gaseous form can't escape through those holes, how are the viruses going to escape?

Perhaps the Chruch wants 80% of the african population to die of AIDS. Perhaps that will end a lot of their stupid wars between neighboring tribes. but I don't think that's their goal. The rule that sex is for procreation was meant at europeans, waaaaay back then... and they're enforcing their ideology on a people which is not european, so thinks and behaves differently. They've succeeded in implementing it, but with dangerous consequences.

You see how religion is actually harming people all around the world?
As an atheist, I can't accept the fact that religion enables some people to commit atrocities and stupidities and that's why some atheists speak out and sound angry when they do so.

I don't think there's an atheist actively defending the death of another person.... well, you have abortion, but we like to think that, as long as there's no nervous system, there's no pain and it's just a bunch of cells, like a miniature tadpole.

But there are a lot of religious people who want to kill or harm other people just because they don't believe the same things. I'm not saying it's the majority. Luckily, it's not... at least in this day and age. It's a small minority, but it's all it takes.

See, this is the problem, these people who fight each other in order to be "correct" are so concerned with their own sense of pride that they aren't focusing on doing their job.
Yes, like many ministers don't focus on doing their job, but instead focus on getting money.
And different religious sects which fight each other over which one is correct.... they literally fight. And the Old Testament is a testament that god did this: crush all other belief systems in false gods.

It's half past two here, so some of the things I wrote may not make sense... :blush:
 
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razeontherock

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Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?

You're asking good questions! I like finding signs of intelligent life ^_^

Allow me to point out G-d does not "require Faith from human beings." Any Faith we have is from G-d Himself. Do you find that to be a subtle distinction?
 
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razeontherock

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Maybe, there was something before the big bang; maybe there were several big bangs. And, with each new bang, all information of the Universe prior to it is wiped out.

You are aware, that Scripture directly supports this idea? As I learned to read at the age of 4 by reading the Bible, the Lord showed me this, so I don't find it terribly difficult. In fact if you want to speculate, the second coming could be the next big bang, or our sun going super-nova. (I'm not saying this is what the Bible intends, just pointing out one could entertain that notion and it would not affect Salvation in the least)
 
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oi_antz

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nor some ministers...

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to be mean.
I meant it with a little bit of sarcasm, but mostly joking, hence the smiley face. ;)
Peace!

"absolute truth"? How is that different from plain truth?


Imagine you claim to a few people that a very good friend of yours taught you to use peace and love as "weapons" to end some constant battles that happen in your town, in your country. And this love flows from god to humanity.
Now, remember, your listeners are jews.
How many will listen to you and how many will just turn away?
But you want to be listened so you think the best way to make the message stick is if you add a little flourish.... miracles that your friend performed "in plain sight of some 5000 people on one occasion... it was a marriage. He didn't want to, but his mother, that kind, pure soul... purest of purest begged him to perform that miracle."
Now you've got your audience's attention.
Now you can talk about what he really taught you.

Remember that jesus's disciples (in my example, you're one of them!) are always described as simple people, who didn't know much about the world, nor about writing or reading. And they were left in charge of conveying this grand message to as many people as possible. A momentous task which they tried and, eventually, succeeded.

I'm not saying it happened like this, but... if it did, it would have taken a very short time to reach the format which has reached us.

You say god hates liars, but remember that these people were, essentially, jews. Their main rules were the 10 commandments. There's no commandment which states "thou shall not lie". There one that states "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor", but that is (or can be) different.

I'd really like to think that everyone who is a minister, or priest at christian services does speak the complete truth.
But reality is a b.i.t.c.h. There are ministers whose only goal is money. They may even not believe a word of what they say, but they know the people believe it if you say it in a special way. Many, if not most, televangelists are the perfect example of this.
So, yes, it is completely possible that "God's people are lying for His sake"... at least people who claim to be god's people.



Yes, I agree with your word... "Ideology" fits much better than "religion". :) I sometimes forget the proper words... :( bad wiring in my brain, I guess.
You know why an atheist becomes a more severe opponent?
Because he's appalled at religious people's obsession with one book and one fixed point of view about that book.
And he tries and tries to get those people to see and understand that detail. He points it out to them.... but they still obsess.
And you want to know why atheists hate religion?
Because people who obsess that much about one book and believe what it says are excellent to turn into terrorists... the kind that kill other people(I know islam is more widely viewed as the source of such terrorism, but it's not that uncommon for christians to violently express their views on some aspects of society, like abortions, gays, etc... In the US, some have gone all the way and murdered a doctor which performed abortions). Of course, luckily, only a very small, tiny fraction of believers actually commit such crimes.
Atheists also hate that religion dictates the believers' lives. On most civilized countries, you don't really notice it. there's the occasional person who thinks they should only have sex after getting married, and you have to go to mass every Sunday (curiously, not the Sabbath, Saturday, like it says in the ten commandments... heck, as long as it's one day, every seven, right?). But there are some places where local religious leaders suggest rules which make no sense. In much of south America and Africa, the use of condoms is forbidden by the church. And that is the official position of the catholic church: never use condoms. In their view, a man and a woman only have sex after being married and only with the express purpose of procreating. Of course, if you follow that rule, it doesn't make sense to use the condom. You're actually trying to have kids, not preventing it...
But then reality comes crashing down like the b.i.t.c.h. it is.
People don't have sex just to make babies. They do it to have some fun, enjoy themselves. It's a pleasurable thing. And, knowing you'll get that pleasure, you try to get it as often as possible! :)
And in those places I mentioned, things are difficult, AIDS and other diseases are rampant because of prostitution is widespread (if your wife doesn't want it, there's a hooker who does and if you beat her, you may get away with not paying for the service).
But then the priests tell the people not to use condoms.... but they can't say it just like that - if you tell me not to do it, I'll do it for sure. They add a little bit of awesome: the latex in the condoms has holes and these holes are enough for HIV to pass through, but not enough for sperm to go through, so why bother using the condom?
In a way, it's true. Latex in condoms does have holes in it's structure. Very small holes, with a size of the order of the virus's. But the virus is in a liquid, mostly composed by water and, I don't know if you've ever tried, but you can fill a condom with air, just like a balloon. Air is essentially Oxygen and Nitrogen, each composed by two atoms, O2 and N2. Now, if two atoms is gaseous form can't escape through those holes, how are the viruses going to escape?

Perhaps the Chruch wants 80% of the african population to die of AIDS. Perhaps that will end a lot of their stupid wars between neighboring tribes. but I don't think that's their goal. The rule that sex is for procreation was meant at europeans, waaaaay back then... and they're enforcing their ideology on a people which is not european, so thinks and behaves differently. They've succeeded in implementing it, but with dangerous consequences.

You see how religion is actually harming people all around the world?
As an atheist, I can't accept the fact that religion enables some people to commit atrocities and stupidities and that's why some atheists speak out and sound angry when they do so.

I don't think there's an atheist actively defending the death of another person.... well, you have abortion, but we like to think that, as long as there's no nervous system, there's no pain and it's just a bunch of cells, like a miniature tadpole.

But there are a lot of religious people who want to kill or harm other people just because they don't believe the same things. I'm not saying it's the majority. Luckily, it's not... at least in this day and age. It's a small minority, but it's all it takes.


Yes, like many ministers don't focus on doing their job, but instead focus on getting money.
And different religious sects which fight each other over which one is correct.... they literally fight. And the Old Testament is a testament that god did this: crush all other belief systems in false gods.

It's half past two here, so some of the things I wrote may not make sense... :blush:
There's only one thing I want to correct you on here, and it is your failure to account for "true disciples" as distinguished from "false teachers". There is a lot of information in the Bible about how to tell the difference. If you were to decide that you'd like to be fair to Jesus and seek the truth from among the lies then you'd probably be best to consider the following verses:

Matthew 6:22-24
New Living Translation (NLT)
22 “Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light. 23 But when your eye is bad, your whole body is filled with darkness. And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is!

The Tree and Its Fruit

15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

And as for contraception and abstinence, I think it is obvious by combining commandments 7 and 10, and what Jesus says in Matthew 5:28 that sex outside of marriage is sinful. Of course, people find pleasure in certain sins so they will always grizzle about this but it's just a fact of life according to the law of God.

I don't really see anything else in what you've said that needs correcting.
 
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razeontherock

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OP, since you fancy yourself a critical thinker, I should point out many many holes in your thinking you have exposed in such a short thread. W/o using the quote function I'll have to go off the top of my head, having just read the thread so I may miss many:

Job wasn't written for us to "follow." It was written for us to understand, and directly refutes the highest wisdom of it's day, yin and yang.

Scripture isn't something we give intellectual assent to (or not) and arrive at Truth; it is something the Lord confirms with signs and wonders following. This smashes most of your thinking here to bits! So while you unbelievers are content to contemplate the lint in your navel, Drich, Antz and others who know him speak from what we KNOW. A level playing field that does not make ;)

And it is we whom you have professed you wish to engage. Let's see if you have integrity?

Next, understanding how the world we find ourselves living in does not remove G-d from it in any way shape or form. That you claim it does is ... really poor thinking on your part. Make you a deal; I give you a Mulligan and you re-consider, and be honest enough to discuss it openly.

You speak about books "older than the Bible" claiming human animal hybrids who wished to be worshipped as gods. How do you fail to recognize the Bible speaks plainly about this - you never heard of the flood or considered why it was necessary? Oy :doh: I suppose this is too soon to confront you with what Jesus told us about the coming tribulation then. "You can't handle the Truth" ^_^

"Fitting" the OT to the NT is done for us. Since you don't know how this occurrs, thank you for your honesty in admitting you are a TOTAL NOVICE considering the Bible. This means of course, that you will refrain from even forming ANY OPINION on that subject for quite some time, let alone voicing it. This does not mean that I ask you to accept my understanding on ANY of it, despite the fact I have diligently devoted decades to purifying my understanding of it's contents. Instead I will merely address your questions in my own meager fashion, challenge your thinking, and hope to encounter new thoughts as well. I will make bold statements w/ no attempt to "prove" them, but leave you to your own path of discovery, processing info as you see fit just like I do.

Acquiring knowledge of the Divine, is a VERY personal thing in the Abrahamic traditions. It requires "leaving the land of our Fathers." This is quite different than the bias you have presented!

You pit G-d as revealed to different societies against Himself. This is a misunderstanding. To illustrate my point, my ancestors were Asatru, when they inexplicably defeated the Roman Empire. (I still don't care much for any aspect of their ilk, and it may be genetic disposition) They knew the Christian G-d but had no worthy example to follow. Neither did they have as complete a revelation as I am Blessed with via the Gospel; yet they had access to the same G-d, if they wished to pursue Light. They could also pursue darkness, just like I can. The same holds true for pretty much any cultural upbringing you can point to.

You question the integrity of the NT, only because you do not understand academic standards of verifying writings of antiquity. By those standards, the NT makes the Trojan Wars look like Mother Goose. Does anyone doubt the Trojan Wars occurred, or are they taught as fact? Why would all the original Disciples except one die horrible deaths as martyrs, if they were merely peddling a bill of goods? I have sincere Faith as I'd hope all could tell, and I really hope I don't ever need to prove it by being burned at the stake for not renouncing Christ :prayer: For a critical thinker, this is something you simply have NOT thought through!

You ask about G-d's purpose in us being here and needing Faith. This would be one of those "great existential questions." ;) Let's establish some groundwork first, and if you have the mettle we can discuss that for years ...

You have no explanation for how man emerged as dominant. Our appearance as a "civilized" species was rather abrupt. This appears to be quite different from any physical Ev.

You think that Christianity (C) = "obsessing about one book." What it is, is a relationship. Those that lack this are the fodder to be turned into terrorists, but they usually just fall away which is not nearly so spectacular.

Ok so let's see if you have the intestinal fortitude to really address this ...
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread is closed for review and clean up. Severalposts have been removed already.


As a reminder, the guidelines for posting in this forum are here and include:

We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith. If another non-Christian seeker wishes to ask questions about the Christian faith, they may start their own thread. No more than one non-Christian (the OP) may post in a thread.


 
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Redheadedstepchild

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I am re-opening this thread. Please keep in mind that this is not an area for debate. Debating in this thread will cause it to be closed permanently. And again, this thread is for the OP and the Christian members of this forum. Thank you for respecting the rules for Exploring Christianity.

 
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lucaspa

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Why can't that being just let all of us know that he is there and waiting for him? Why does he rely on measly humans to carry on his original ideas and teachings? I mean, he should know the old saying: he who tells a tale, adds a tail.
Pocaracas, millions of people down thru history, including millions living today, have personal experience of deity. This is an ongoing dialogue between these people and God. See at the end of my post for what I mean by "personal experience of God". So your premise -- that deity only contacted people in the past -- is wrong.

Now, why doesn't everyone have such personal experience? There are a number of possible reasons. You have mentioned one of them:
"2 - they made it up, perhaps due to perplexity before such events as death, fire, thunder, rain, sun, etc."

Of course, the problem with your version is that people today have experience of God, and they are not in perplexity about the events you describe. So let's explore some other options for why doesn't everyone have such experience:

1. Some people lack the "deity detecting module" in their brain. As you say, people evolved from previous species. Also, God must communicate with us thru our material brain. So, somewhere in the evolution of hominins, there was a mutation that produced changes in the brain that allowed detection of God. It is analogous to the "cheating detection module" evolutionary psychologists have discovered. A deity detection module has survival benefits: help with emotional problems, assistance with threats (hey, there's a sabretooth in the high grass over there!), etc. So natural selection favors those with such a module. Right now, about 90% of people are theists and 10% agnostics/atheists. That would correspond with 90% penetrance of the deity detection module in the human population.
2. Everyone does get communication from God. Some people ignore it or rationalize it away.
3. Some people just don't want communication with God. As you read the testimony at the end of this post, those people wanted to communicate with God. God obliged. But, if you don't want to talk to Him, perhaps He isn't going to force Himself on you. That would be politeness, wouldn't it?

How can anyone guarantee that what happened so long ago was really what people now claim?
That's a problem we have with all of history. How can we guarantee that Hannibal brought elephants over the Alps? That 300 Spartans (and 900 Photians) really fought to the death at Thermopylae? Perhaps it is all made up.

We know we are here, on this planet, on this solar system, on this galaxy, on this Universe. We know the Universe is vast and its mass is similar to what can be found here: hydrogen, helium and the other elements of our periodic table, but mainly those two which are present in stars.
Actually, earth is not similar to what is found in the universe. Earth is not "mainly those two [hydrogen and helium]"! Good grief, at least get the science right.

But the existence of the universe is one of 2 areas where it is permissible to hypothesize direct action by God. Why does the universe exist? Because God created it (by the Big Bang).

We know that, on this planet, life sparked. How exactly? We don't know.
I know of one way that it does happen. Here, read this: The Harbinger. My Scientific Discussions of Evolution for the Pope and His Scientists You can do it in your backyard if you want. Just ask and I'll tell you how. It sounds like you are thinking god-of-the-gaps. There is no gap. God created life by chemistry. No problem.

Life sparked and evolved. Cells gathered to make larger, more resilient organisms; these changed their appearance in order to adapt to the environment, dinosaurs came and went, just as lots of other animal species. Some survived, the better equipped to handle the ever-changing environment. Eventually, hominids came by and one branch led to modern humans.
We need to discuss your ignorance of how evolution works.

Why would God rely upon humans, even knowing that humans will get it partially wrong? Freewill. It sounds like you are postulating a Control Freak god. If God is not a Control Freak, then God does not exist. Non sequitor.

On the other hand, if my guess Number 2 is correct, it all makes perfect sense. No divinity exists. People simply believe it does because some came up with the concept and others picked it up.
Again, false premise. This ignores the hundreds of millions of people thru history who have had personal experience of deity. Let's take 2 examples: Thomas Aquinas and CS Lewis.

Aquinas constructed logical arguments for the existence of God. Yes, they have flaws, that's not the point. The point is that, late in life, Aquinas had personal experience that he claimed made all those logical arguments "childish" and "silly". If the concept was only "picked up", why would Aquinas undermine his own work like that?

CS Lewis was an atheist. By your argument, he already had a position that "made perfect sense". But he began having a series of personal experiences. These convinced him to abandon atheism. If he was relying only on historical stories, why would he do that?

It's an idea I've been having inside for a while and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
First, this is standard atheist dogma and mythology. There's nothing original here. We've heard the same "thoughts" hundreds/thousands of times before. Second, as I said before, your premise is wrong. So here is a summary of people living today on God communicating with them:

"Therefore, before proceeding further, we shall give the floor temporarily to those who claim they have experiential evidence of God, and allow them to clarify what they mean by such evidence. ... However, when it comes to the nature of experience of the presence of God, there is an astounding degree of consensus. The following statements, in order to keep us as close to the source as possible, come not from the past but from our contemporaries, from persons with whom I have spoken directly. They are, however, echoed throughout the history and literature of religion.
"The experience is usually not 'spooky'. It sometimes, though definitely not always, might be termed 'mystical'. It doesn't for the most part consist of events which by their nature overturn or challenge the laws of science. (I've heard only one first-hand account of an event which, if it really happened, would be very difficult to explain by any process presently known to science.) The experience doesn't establish a hot-line to God, by which all questions are answered, all doubts set aside, and complete understanding is reached. ... People are quick to point out that, though they think their experience really is of God, it is, even at its clearest and best, only a partial, human, inadequate view of what God really is and what God is really doing. Experiential evidence sometimes comes in a flash, but it's more often the accumulation of more subtle experiences over a period of time.
"John S. Spong .... 'I do not mean to suggest that I have arrived at some mystical plateau where my search has ended, where doubts are no more, or that I now possess some unearthly peace of mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have only arrived at a point where the search has a validity because I have tasted the reality of this presence, if ever so slightly.'
"As to finding God initially, some say they came rather gradually to a realization that the God they'd learned about in books, songs, and from other people, is real. Others on the contrary battered the gates of heaven .. with very sceptical demands for answers, IF such a heaven existed. Their uncompromising intellectuality led them to try to pin God to the wall in ways that might be expected to elicit a lightning bolt rather than blessing. Their requirements for evidence and proofs were seldom met exactly as specified, but there was a moment in the process when they realized to their astonishment that they were wrestling with a real being who couldn't be contained in human descriptions or standards, not a concept or an abstraction. This God was something out of their control, something not fashioned in the image they had formed in their mind ...
"The testimony is of God's leadership being requested and and received at turning points where human foresight and knowledge were inadequate, and of God's leadership turning out to be exactly on target, though perhaps not in the direction one would have preferred. ... God has stopped some persons dead, when they did not want to be stopped, on the brink of serious mistakes. God has changes some in ways human beings can't change themselves even with allthe help of psychotherapy. God has made it possible for them to love the unlovable, forgive the unforgiveable. ... Has all this been 'spritual' help? Not according to these witnesses. God is a powerful and active God, interveining wherever, whenever, and through whatever avenue he pleases. The phrase 'the insidiousness of God' comes from a woman Episcopal priest. God's intervention is not always kind, gentle, or pleasurable. He refuses to play by human rules or indulge our desire to plan ahead. ... God does not always come at our calling, give us what we want, or even shield us from terrible pain or grief ... but God's forgiveness and love know no limits whatsoever.
"Some direct quotes: 'My relationship with God has been by far and away the most demanding relationship in my life." "The Lord has been my strongest support, but also my most frustrating opponent." 'If I didn't absolutely know this is the only game in town, I'd sure as hell get out of it!' "The best evidence isn't some 'wonder' or 'miracle', and it certainly isn't success, happiness, or the peace of having my prayers answered in ways which suit me. It's the extraordinary, topsy-turvy, interesting course my life has taken since I've engaged in this -- once begun, virtually inescapable -- dialogue with God." Kitty Ferguson's The Fire in the Equations, pp 248- 251
 
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pocaracas

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Pocaracas, millions of people down thru history, including millions living today, have personal experience of deity. This is an ongoing dialogue between these people and God. See at the end of my post for what I mean by "personal experience of God". So your premise -- that deity only contacted people in the past -- is wrong.
Very well, I'll grant you that.
People have experiences of the divine. Always very subjective, always people who already had a prior concept of this dinivity and somehow interpreted those experiences as divine.... what if they're all wrong? You said it yourself, lots of people discount such experiences here:
Now, why doesn't everyone have such personal experience? There are a number of possible reasons. You have mentioned one of them:
"2 - they made it up, perhaps due to perplexity before such events as death, fire, thunder, rain, sun, etc."

Of course, the problem with your version is that people today have experience of God, and they are not in perplexity about the events you describe. So let's explore some other options for why doesn't everyone have such experience:

1. Some people lack the "deity detecting module" in their brain. As you say, people evolved from previous species. Also, God must communicate with us thru our material brain. So, somewhere in the evolution of hominins, there was a mutation that produced changes in the brain that allowed detection of God. It is analogous to the "cheating detection module" evolutionary psychologists have discovered. A deity detection module has survival benefits: help with emotional problems, assistance with threats (hey, there's a sabretooth in the high grass over there!), etc. So natural selection favors those with such a module. Right now, about 90% of people are theists and 10% agnostics/atheists. That would correspond with 90% penetrance of the deity detection module in the human population.
2. Everyone does get communication from God. Some people ignore it or rationalize it away.
3. Some people just don't want communication with God. As you read the testimony at the end of this post, those people wanted to communicate with God. God obliged. But, if you don't want to talk to Him, perhaps He isn't going to force Himself on you. That would be politeness, wouldn't it?
I always thought it was more like 20% of humanity that's atheist, but it doesn't matter for the discussion.

Your "deity detection module" theory sounds great, but things may not be so simple.
Some people are more sensitive to emotion than others. Some people are more indoctrinated during their childhood than others. I think I've written somewhere (but I'll grant you didn't read the whole thread.. I wouldn't have!), but I'll write it again. Evolution has equipped us to have the ability to believe others, while we're young and ignorant. And kids believe adults completely. On things they can test, they sometimes end up challenging what the adults have claimed; but on untestable things (like gods) they stick with the ideas given to them by adults... then they grow into adults and restart the process. I'd wager that 100% of all believers acquired the concept of god during such a young age. Some kept it and are believers who have always believed; others may have wavered in their beliefs but these ultimately caught up with them.. mainly through those experiences which their minds interpreted by using that definition that had been implanted in them a long time ago.
It's such a problem of interpretation that those experiences can just as much justify belief in the christian god, as in the buddhist philosophy, or the Egyptian classical gods.


That's a problem we have with all of history. How can we guarantee that Hannibal brought elephants over the Alps? That 300 Spartans (and 900 Photians) really fought to the death at Thermopylae? Perhaps it is all made up.
That's when we use some common sense: if it were today, discounting technology, would such feats be possible? I have serious doubts about the elephants going through the Alps, but they could have traveled by ship and made it to look as tough the went through the Alps...


Actually, earth is not similar to what is found in the universe. Earth is not "mainly those two [hydrogen and helium]"! Good grief, at least get the science right.
I did mention all the other elements there, but you chose to keep it out of the quote...
Indeed, you're right, 99.9999999999999% and then some more of the Universe is made up of Hydrogen and Helium. The other elements found on Earth and other "rocky planets" are the product of chain fusion reactions which have managed to gather in one atomic nucleus a large amount of protons and neutrons. The building blocks remain the same, protons and neutrons and electrons swirling around the nucleus (or they're just somewhere in a cloud of uncertainty, if go by quantum theory).
How's that for getting the science right?

But the existence of the universe is one of 2 areas where it is permissible to hypothesize direct action by God. Why does the universe exist? Because God created it (by the Big Bang).
yes, you can make this claim only because no direct evidence supports it... nor disproves it.
I can also claim that a thousand dimensional being bonded with another such being and their union originated our 4D universe. This has as much evidence as your explanation.... and I think I can come up with lots more possible origins of the big bang. Is any of those correct? Why would your version be the correct one?

I know of one way that it does happen. Here, read this: The Harbinger. My Scientific Discussions of Evolution for the Pope and His Scientists You can do it in your backyard if you want. Just ask and I'll tell you how. It sounds like you are thinking god-of-the-gaps. There is no gap. God created life by chemistry. No problem.
No problem... And if we just remove god from the equation, it still holds: life came about through simple chemistry, no god required!
We need to discuss your ignorance of how evolution works.
Please teach me. I was never a very good biology student.

Why would God rely upon humans, even knowing that humans will get it partially wrong? Freewill. It sounds like you are postulating a Control Freak god. If God is not a Control Freak, then God does not exist. Non sequitor.
I didn't postulate a control freak god... the Old Testament did that for me, and that is the god they teach kids... but they leave out some of the nastier bits, like if you're found stealing, you own father should stone you to death... so said god.
Again, false premise. This ignores the hundreds of millions of people thru history who have had personal experience of deity. Let's take 2 examples: Thomas Aquinas and CS Lewis.
And lots and lots of people went the other way around. Does that mean you premise is also false?

Aquinas constructed logical arguments for the existence of God. Yes, they have flaws, that's not the point. The point is that, late in life, Aquinas had personal experience that he claimed made all those logical arguments "childish" and "silly". If the concept was only "picked up", why would Aquinas undermine his own work like that?

CS Lewis was an atheist. By your argument, he already had a position that "made perfect sense". But he began having a series of personal experiences. These convinced him to abandon atheism. If he was relying only on historical stories, why would he do that?
Two people that show exactly what I pointed out at the beginning of this post. They already had the concept of god built into them.... then they had experiences of something they could only interpret as godly... maybe they weren't...
First, this is standard atheist dogma and mythology. There's nothing original here. We've heard the same "thoughts" hundreds/thousands of times before.

:(
And there I thought I had stumbled into something no one in thousands of years had thought about.... :doh:
Second, as I said before, your premise is wrong. So here is a summary of people living today on God communicating with them:

bla bla bla
I did read it all, but... I was expecting at least one account.... no, just generalities... fitting all I said above, if we want it to fit. They also fit what you say. Which of us is right? maybe we're both wrong?
 
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razeontherock

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Your "deity detection module" theory sounds great, but things may not be so simple.
Some people are more sensitive to emotion than others. Some people are more indoctrinated during their childhood than others. I think I've written somewhere (but I'll grant you didn't read the whole thread.. I wouldn't have!), but I'll write it again. Evolution has equipped us to have the ability to believe others, while we're young and ignorant. And kids believe adults completely.

I take great umbrage at this notion. I don't think you'll find a more "solid" believer here than I am, but by the ripe old age of 4 I thoroughly concluded that the Church I was Baptized in was false religion and powerless. And my Dad still goes to that same Church at the age of 78.

After that point, I absolutely refused to believe anything my Dad said, just because it was him saying it. As both my parents were educators I excelled in applying critical thinking to anything taught in school, because i thoroughly expected they were feeding me a malicious line of BS. I invented my own formulas in math, and when asked to show my work I asked the teacher why my answers were right. (Even though I couldn't show my work) And why I could solve their stupid problems quicker than they could. As you might imagine, some enjoyed the challenge but most of the teachers didn't like me. I did the same thing throughout school and consistently scored in the top 1% of the Nation.

So you'll understand when I say you have to take your thoughts here and go back to the drawing board: your ideas expressed here just don't jibe with reality.
 
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