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Why BELIEVE, shouldn't we KNOW?
- Thread starter pocaracas
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Well... if you believe there is a god, then that god has some sort of influence over the physical world.
What I said is that nothing in the physical world requires the existence of god to work the way it works. Maybe we just don't know how that part of the physical world works, but that doesn't immediately mean that god is behind it.
500 years ago, lightning, earthquakes, etc were considered the work of god. Today... not so!
Isn't it possible to extrapolate into the future and realize that there's a good chance there is no god influencing anything.
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It's been shown that the "what" or the "who" tends to become discarded when we finally find out the "why" and "how".
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
No, cargo cults are much different to Christianity. With Christianity you have a man who received all the necessary events in His life to believe He was the son of God, went up against the world powers of the time (Judaism and Rome), telling them that they were sinners and that God's kingdom would be taken from them. They saw the opportunity to claim God's kingdom for their own so they killed Him and hijacked the religious industries just like your friend is trying to entice you to do. There has always been a war over who dominates the religious industry, and there has always been a sliver of truth, due to those who love to live truthfully and to live in a manner that pleases God while the majority of the world lives in a manner to please themselves.
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I pointed the cargo cults as circumstantial evidence that human beings can easily distort things and, in a very short time span, spawn beliefs and evolve them.
Is it not possible that jesus never existed?
Is it not possible that, if jesus existed, he could have just advocated peace and love? everything else could have been the effect of such evolution of belief.
On the other hand, I hear god is perfect.... yet he send his only representative to Earth on the far end of some desert country and his message is not understood perfectly by the whole of humanity. why? Where's that perfection which can only make perfect things?
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He has?
Or someone wrote something about it and you claim that it was god saying it?
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
No, it is you who does not understand it properly. The Bible shows that humanity did understand Jesus properly while He was alive, and it is only due to the necessity of Jesus to take His blood to the holy of holies that He was delivered over to the world's mockery and shamefully killed in exchange for a murderer. You sound less than qualified enough to hold your opinions on this matter, would you mind briefly explaining to me the nature of your exposure to Christianity?
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
No, God has made the claim Himself:
The LORD, Not Idols
6 This is what the LORD says
Israels King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come
yes, let them foretell what will come.
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.
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- Aug 30, 2008
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Hi there, I thought I would start by answering your heading. I do know, you missunderstand what Christianity is about, it is about experiencing God. God never anywhere in the bible says you will never find me. He says seek and you will find.
My website is full of examples of God revealing himself to me. See Know God Personally It is a long read but at least read some of it. It will give you an idea of what a Christian life is like.
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You claim that the book you call "bible" is completely trustworthy.
I say it may not be so. After all, it was written by people. And people are fallible.
Again, you refer to a book which has its merit, but you cannot say for certain that its contents are all that trustworthy.
But you believe it, so you can say for certain that all its content is true.
It seems to me you have a lot of Déjà vu and daydreaming.
Christianity and any belief system is about believing that there is a divinity which is responsible for creating this world and, possibly, other worlds. After death, you go to one of these other worlds. According to christianity, in on of these other worlds, you can find this divinity waiting to meet you "face to face". In the other world, you meet its nemesis.
And the way to go to the first world is by actively seeking that divinity in this world, which... apparently, can never be done, because he's in the other world. So why are some people specially tuned to this other world while others can't?
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- Aug 30, 2008
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Because some people actually take the time to seek God, where as others just make fun of him.
What a load of rubish, if you took the time to read with an open heart not a closed one you could believe. You just want to be a sinner. You think you are smart but you are a fool.
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God is not needing anything.
You are not reading my post very will or maybe I am not explaining it.
By accepting the existence of God (this can be because you really just need a benevolent god to exist) you have to be humble. It is an act of humility itself (trusting a benevolent Creator over trusting self).
The humility you use to trust (faith) in a benevolent God is enough humility to humbly accept God forgiveness.
If you do truly accept Gods forgiveness you will love much since he that is forgiven much loves much .
So the sequence is more sin (hurt others)> be aware of your sin (be burdened in conscience)> seek relieve from this burden> desire a benevolent creator to help relieve your burden > humble yourself to the point of accepting a benevolent creator> accept the benevolent creators charity> Love much as a result.
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See the part i put in bold? I don't understand why should I desire such a creator.
It's not a logical step in your sequence.
The step should be something like "search a means to relieve this burden" > "perhaps stop hurting others and start helping them" > you provide charity to others...
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Red herring. People are either honest or dishonest. When people record their accounts and their thoughts, they can do so in an honest or dishonest manner. When people record honest accounts of Jesus Christ and their experience and thoughts with Him I do take it seriously. Therefore, those who claim in total honesty to have had experiences with God are more authority in my opinion than those who claim in all honesty to not have had experiences with God. Furthermore I speak honestly about my own experiences with God and I do not believe I am wrong in doing so. Do you see why I believe what the Bible says instead of what some atheist says against the Bible and my own testimony? If you can't see the truth for what it is, why do you think I should respect your opinion? This is exactly what you say about those who contribute to the knowledge of God, except it is vice-versa.
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I agree that faith should be "knowing" 100% for sure. The Bible says not to be luke-warm; you should not doubt your salvation.
So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:16
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I also believe that anyone can be saved until the very last minutes of their lives, like the thief that was crucified on the cross next to jesus.
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I don't believe 100% that I'm saved but I don't believe that I'm going to be spit out.
Returning to the life that I led before seeking Christ is impossible...it's terrifying to even presume that it's possible because the terror that I feel is unbearable and would never want to feel that ever again.
The fear of God prevents me from returning to living a life without seeking God, so I suppose I CAN say that I am saved.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:1
Nobody can ever be as wise as the Lord; he is wisdom.
Returning to the life that I led before seeking Christ is impossible...it's terrifying to even presume that it's possible because the terror that I feel is unbearable and would never want to feel that ever again.
The fear of God prevents me from returning to living a life without seeking God, so I suppose I CAN say that I am saved.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:1
Nobody can ever be as wise as the Lord; he is wisdom.
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Christians do know. Christian faith and knowledge are a continuum. At the limited level of mere credence - "the devils believe and tremble" (James 2:19) this is mirrored in terms of secular faith-knowledge.
When you enter a room in the evening and switch the light on, that is an act of faith-knowledge, i.e. you have every reason to believe on the vast balance of probabilities that the light will come on - even though there might have been a power cut or the bulb might have blown.
The Holy spirit assures us, however, as, indeed, he does the devils, that God does indeed exist, so our faith is more an act of the will. It involves commitment to the whole package. And there's the rub. We know, more surely than we believe, paradoxical as that sounds, because at the deeper level than mere credence, faith requires our commitment to the whole package of Christianity - belief translated into Christian commitment, into actions and a certain attitude.
And this in turn makes demands on our soul (memory, understanding and will), most notably on our will. This issue of commitment was expressed most pungently by G K Chesterton, who observed that Christianity had not been tried and found wanting, but had been found hard and left untried.
The whole of Creation proclaims God's existence. Only modern Western man is perverse enough to question, even to deny it, but that would not have been the case had it not been for the demands made on us by our faith.
Of course, today there is an enormous amount of disinformation by those currently ruling the roost (in the pay of the major corporations), those Einstein called "naive realists", whose metaphysical blindness seems to have almost driven the fathers of modern science to despair, surrounded by them as they were and would largely still be today, to all intents and purposes. The bright ones have to keep quiet or they would be ridiculed and ostracised by the scientific establishment, almost entirely dependent now on funding by the large corporations, as compose Big Pharma, for example.
And as a result of this disinformation, many seeking the truth , mostly among the young are misled, although fortunately, the desire, itself, to know the truth is inspired by God, and means that at a deep level the person has already found him. Or vice versa! And may later in life "wise up", through a mixture of personal experience and informal education.
When you enter a room in the evening and switch the light on, that is an act of faith-knowledge, i.e. you have every reason to believe on the vast balance of probabilities that the light will come on - even though there might have been a power cut or the bulb might have blown.
The Holy spirit assures us, however, as, indeed, he does the devils, that God does indeed exist, so our faith is more an act of the will. It involves commitment to the whole package. And there's the rub. We know, more surely than we believe, paradoxical as that sounds, because at the deeper level than mere credence, faith requires our commitment to the whole package of Christianity - belief translated into Christian commitment, into actions and a certain attitude.
And this in turn makes demands on our soul (memory, understanding and will), most notably on our will. This issue of commitment was expressed most pungently by G K Chesterton, who observed that Christianity had not been tried and found wanting, but had been found hard and left untried.
The whole of Creation proclaims God's existence. Only modern Western man is perverse enough to question, even to deny it, but that would not have been the case had it not been for the demands made on us by our faith.
Of course, today there is an enormous amount of disinformation by those currently ruling the roost (in the pay of the major corporations), those Einstein called "naive realists", whose metaphysical blindness seems to have almost driven the fathers of modern science to despair, surrounded by them as they were and would largely still be today, to all intents and purposes. The bright ones have to keep quiet or they would be ridiculed and ostracised by the scientific establishment, almost entirely dependent now on funding by the large corporations, as compose Big Pharma, for example.
And as a result of this disinformation, many seeking the truth , mostly among the young are misled, although fortunately, the desire, itself, to know the truth is inspired by God, and means that at a deep level the person has already found him. Or vice versa! And may later in life "wise up", through a mixture of personal experience and informal education.
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