Why BELIEVE, shouldn't we KNOW?

[pocaracas]

Ever since I was born, people have told me that there exists this being of such ultimate power, knowledge and love that he can do whatever he wishes, he can know what we think, he can act upon the sub-microscopic world and perform magic, the real kind!
This being then created this universe we live in.... the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the moons. On this particular planet, he chose to bestow the greatest gift: life.
Dinosaurs and other long extinct animals apart, he planted humanity here.... with the strange purpose of joining him... after death.

These first people had, naturally, knowledge of such being. He was their instructor. They then went on to pass this knowledge to their offspring, who then passed it to their offspring... and so on and so forth until today.
So, when we "believe", we are actually believing what these people have been telling us.
Why can't that being just let all of us know that he is there and waiting for him? Why does he rely on measly humans to carry on his original ideas and teachings? I mean, he should know the old saying: he who tells a tale, adds a tail.
How can anyone guarantee that what happened so long ago was really what people now claim?


Lets look at this from the other side.
What do we now know?
We know we are here, on this planet, on this solar system, on this galaxy, on this Universe. We know the Universe is vast and its mass is similar to what can be found here: hydrogen, helium and the other elements of our periodic table, but mainly those two which are present in stars.
We know that, on this planet, life sparked. How exactly? We don't know. Some people believe in some theories, other believe in other theories and others just plainly say: I don't know.
Life sparked and evolved. Cells gathered to make larger, more resilient organisms; these changed their appearance in order to adapt to the environment, dinosaurs came and went, just as lots of other animal species. Some survived, the better equipped to handle the ever-changing environment. Eventually, hominids came by and one branch led to modern humans.
It is safe to claim that, originally, these hominids had no notion, no concept of divinity. At some stage, then, they must have acquired it. How? I see two options:
1 - a divinity (or more than one?) actually appeared to them and taught them all they needed about the non-corporeal(spirit) world.
2 - they made it up, perhaps due to perplexity before such events as death, fire, thunder, rain, sun, etc.

Again, in case my guess Number 1 is right, why would this divinity only make it self known to the first people and not to every single one? why would such a being rely on humans to carry that message? Knowing, beforehand, that they would most likely foul it up and then segregate and generate conflicts among them... why?

On the other hand, if my guess Number 2 is correct, it all makes perfect sense. No divinity exists. People simply believe it does because some came up with the concept and others picked it up. When they realized the power such a concept could convey over simple and ignorant people, they managed to spread it make people believe and believe and believe. Never knowing.

I'm sorry for the wall of text. It's an idea I've been having inside for a while and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

 

[pocaracas]

Do you believe all this?

If you're not a bot, then show me where my reasoning has gone wrong.

 

[pocaracas]

If I showed you what you asked me to show you.

Of what value would it be to you?

I guess it depends on what you show me.

 

[pocaracas]

Perhaps not... perhaps yes. Why don't you give it a go?

 

[pocaracas]

ok, you're a bot uncentst Holotype.
Anyone else care to step in?

 

[Biker Angel]

God hides from us b/c it is impossible to please God without faith. Heb.11:6
If we all know then we have no need of faith.

 

[pocaracas]

God hides from us b/c it is impossible to please God without faith. Heb.11:6
If we all know then we have no need of faith.

Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?

 

[Annoula]

i think our problem in believing in the existence of God is that we are unable to see the whole picture.

what i mean with "whole picture"... as you said, we live on a planet, within a solar system, within a galaxy, within a huge universe.
where is this universe located?
who created it?
why?
(these are some of the questions raised)

for me the answer is one: a supreme being created all this. but i don't know why or where.

he planted humanity here.... with the strange purpose of joining him... after death.

this supreme being that i call Ανώτατος Νους = Maximum Mind, wished to create.
and He created everything known and unknown to us, us included.
the Bible says that humans were placed in an area called Paradise and had direct contact with this Being - Mind - Creator - God.
but they did something wrong, that was not welcomed by the Creator. so they had to flee from this place and live on earth.

the Creator wanted to re-establish their direct contact and made a plan. this plan involved all that Christianity came to believe. Jesus Christ coming on earth, apocalypses of His Trinity, second coming of Jesus etc.
i see everything as a huge plan. a plan that is not rational and it cannot be understood from the human mind, because it was created by the Maximum Mind ever. the Creator of all Creation.

that's my own viewpoint. hope it helps.

 

[pocaracas]

Awesome point of view! Thanks!

i think our problem in believing in the existence of God is that we are unable to see the whole picture.

what i mean with "whole picture"... as you said, we live on a planet, within a solar system, within a galaxy, within a huge universe.
where is this universe located?
who created it?
why?
(these are some of the questions raised)

for me the answer is one: a supreme being created all this. but i don't know why or where.

If we go by Einstein, space and time are part of the Universe. The concept of outside of the Universe doesn't make sense in a space-time geometry sense. So "where is the Universe" is a question that also doesn't make sense.
And the real difficulty is that time is here as well. Before the Universe also doesn't make sense. But we like to imagine a big void of nothing and BANG!

Why does there have to be a creator? Why does it have to be a someone?
Science's easiest reply to this is that, probably, the Universe has always been here. Maybe, there was something before the big bang; maybe there were several big bangs. And, with each new bang, all information of the Universe prior to it is wiped out.
I find this a little easier to accept than some being did it. Where did your being come from? Was it created or did it evolve, somehow? Is there only one? Why not more?

the Creator wanted to re-establish their direct contact and made a plan. this plan involved all that Christianity came to believe. Jesus Christ coming on earth, apocalypses of His Trinity, second coming of Jesus etc.
i see everything as a huge plan. a plan that is not rational and it cannot be understood from the human mind, because it was created by the Maximum Mind ever. the Creator of all Creation.

And where do all the other religions fit there? specially those that came before christianity, before jews, before the monotheism.

 

[Biker Angel]

Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?

I believe that having faith is what separates us human animals from all the rest of the animals. The ability to have faith is indicative of our spiritual side and faith feeds the soul to help it grow and understand the will of God. An exorcise in faith like saying grace over ones food, builds spiritual muscles to help cope with everyday life with it's pain and struggles.

 

[pocaracas]

I believe that having faith is what separates us human animals from all the rest of the animals. The ability to have faith is indicative of our spiritual side and faith feeds the soul to help it grow and understand the will of God. An exorcise in faith like saying grace over ones food, builds spiritual muscles to help cope with everyday life with it's pain and struggles.

I cope just fine without any faith.
And typically, what separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom is a lot more than the ability to have faith.... and it's all in the DNA.

 

[drich0150]

Ever since I was born, people have told me that there exists this being of such ultimate power, knowledge and love that he can do whatever he wishes,

Actually His actions are dictated by His own righteousness.

he can know what we think, he can act upon the sub-microscopic world and perform magic, the real kind!

Not magic, we simply do not understand the relationship between God and how He effects or manipulates the "natural" world.

This being then created this universe we live in.... the galaxies, the stars, the planets, the moons. On this particular planet, he chose to bestow the greatest gift: life.

There is nothing that states this is the only planet that life was established.

Dinosaurs and other long extinct animals apart, he planted humanity here.... with the strange purpose of joining him... after death.

No, the original plan was to have us walk along side of Him in this life. The "garden" is where that happened.

These first people had, naturally, knowledge of such being.

A one on one physical relationship as a child would have with their Father. Not just simple "knowledge."

He was their instructor.

No, He was their Heavenly Father. the term "instructor" limits His role.

They then went on to pass this knowledge to their offspring, who then passed it to their offspring...

No, They too knew God personally.

and so on and so forth until today.

again no.

So, when we "believe", we are actually believing what these people have been telling us.

No, I believe because I know God.

Why can't that being just let all of us know that he is there and waiting for him?

He does for all who "seek" this knowledge.

Why does he rely on measly humans to carry on his original ideas and teachings?

Plausible denyablity. He is giving those (like you apparently) the opportunity to separate themselves from Him. If His presents were known as it would be in the next life, then you would be Forced to acknowledge God. This is not apart of the plan.

I mean, he should know the old saying: he who tells a tale, adds a tail.
How can anyone guarantee that what happened so long ago was really what people now claim?

This was kinda all verified when the dead sea scrolls were found. Minus some grammatical errors and minor translation errors we have in those scrolls proof that God's word has not changed for thousands of years. Apparently we are doing more than "telling tales."

Lets look at this from the other side.
What do we now know?

If the above is any indication...

We know we are here, on this planet, on this solar system, on this galaxy, on this Universe.

OK..

We know the Universe is vast and its mass is similar to what can be found here: hydrogen, helium and the other elements of our periodic table, but mainly those two which are present in stars.

Actually we do not "know" this. "we"/you take it on faith that through our observation we have made trillions of miles away from the nearest example of the celestial body being mentioned, that "we" can indeed recognize the tell tale signs of the presents of the elements you identified. Again this is the EXACT same type of faith we use to believe in God. You have harnessed this faith and pointed towards men who you believe that are smarter than you, and have taken their "word" to be Truth. When in reality they speak of theory and speculation.

We know that, on this planet, life sparked. How exactly? We don't know. Some people believe in some theories, other believe in other theories and others just plainly say: I don't know.

Which is the most honest answer.

Life sparked and evolved. Cells gathered to make larger, more resilient organisms; these changed their appearance in order to adapt to the environment, dinosaurs came and went, just as lots of other animal species. Some survived, the better equipped to handle the ever-changing environment. Eventually, hominids came by and one branch led to modern humans.

Again not a known fact.. That is why it is referred to as a theory.

It is safe to claim that, originally, these hominids had no notion, no concept of divinity. At some stage, then, they must have acquired it. How? I see two options:
1 - a divinity (or more than one?) actually appeared to them and taught them all they needed about the non-corporeal(spirit) world.
2 - they made it up, perhaps due to perplexity before such events as death, fire, thunder, rain, sun, etc.

Or these beings never existed the way you believe them to exist.. It takes a large amount of faith to look at tiny fragments of bone (most of which are no larger than a dime) construct them in a semi recognizable human skull shape and assume that "we" are directly related to them, with nothing other to go on, than one or two people's best educated guesses, and proclaim this mess as Truth!

Again, in case my guess Number 1 is right, why would this divinity only make it self known to the first people and not to every single one? why would such a being rely on humans to carry that message? Knowing, beforehand, that they would most likely foul it up and then segregate and generate conflicts among them... why?

Your argument was defeated in the late 1940's when the scrolls at Comoran were found.

On the other hand, if my guess Number 2 is correct, it all makes perfect sense. No divinity exists. People simply believe it does because some came up with the concept and others picked it up. When they realized the power such a concept could convey over simple and ignorant people, they managed to spread it make people believe and believe and believe. Never knowing.

This only makes sense if one is inclined to believe one version of faith (your preferred version,) over than of another.

I'm sorry for the wall of text. It's an idea I've been having inside for a while and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

happy to help set the record straight.

 

[Biker Angel]

I cope just fine without any faith.
And typically, what separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom is a lot more than the ability to have faith.... and it's all in the DNA.

So if I tell you I believe that we humans have a spirit/soul and that's what enables us to be able to have faith. But the other animals don't have a spirit/soul so they don't have the ability to have faith and comprehend God as creator, You just don't believe me because your an unbeliever.

So then the answers you are looking for can not come from a Christian point of view because you already reject that. I hope you find the answers to your ?'s
elsewhere but since you came here asking, I take it that you never have. Well take care and I will be praying that you find faith as your answer.

 

[oi_antz]

Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?

I think that in making Himself only known to those who want to know Him, it naturally assist's His selection of those who are worthy to know Him eternally. It is therefore a voluntary action on the part of the human, whether it will comply with God or whether it will not, and there is no iron fist to force us to wear a mask. The evil are completely free to be evil while the good are completely free to be good. If on the other hand God lived and ruled in a physical body since the beginning of time, some of us would feel compelled to be good against our own will, and it would develop contention toward God, I guess you just have to think a bit more about why God does things the way He does. His wisdom is incredible.

 

[pocaracas]

Actually His actions are dictated by His own righteousness.

How do you know that?

Not magic, we simply do not understand the relationship between God and how He effects or manipulates the "natural" world.

Perhaps it's because he doesn't?

There is nothing that states this is the only planet that life was established.

Indeed, but it's the only one we know of.
Quoting Carl Sagan(who was quoting someone else, but I forgot who... nothing like google to remember things:Thomas Carlyle): If we are alone in the Universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space.

No, the original plan was to have us walk along side of Him in this life. The "garden" is where that happened.

Again, how do you know that? How wave you come across that piece of knowledge?

A one on one physical relationship as a child would have with their Father. Not just simple "knowledge."

No, He was their Heavenly Father. the term "instructor" limits His role.

yes ok.... but they, supposedly, knew about him. They didn't have to believe. They had direct contact, right?

No, They too knew God personally.


again no.


No, I believe because I know God.

You know him?? REALY??!?!
AMAZING!!!
You're the person I was looking for!
How did you get to know him?
What is he like? Like what all other christians think? or is he more like what the hindus think? or like what the Vikings thought?

He does for all who "seek" this knowledge.

I seek this knowledge. But I refuse to believe in order to know.... that's stupid!

Plausible denyablity. He is giving those (like you apparently) the opportunity to separate themselves from Him. If His presents were known as it would be in the next life, then you would be Forced to acknowledge God. This is not apart of the plan.

Again, "the plan". How do you know about this plan?
How does that work with people who are born in other cultures?
(I seem to be stuck asking the same questions... )

This was kinda all verified when the dead sea scrolls were found. Minus some grammatical errors and minor translation errors we have in those scrolls proof that God's word has not changed for thousands of years. Apparently we are doing more than "telling tales."

So you think that just because someone found an old copy of a story, it means the story is true?
I'm talking about what happened before... long before the story was written. The first people, those who didn't even have a writing system.

Actually we do not "know" this. "we"/you take it on faith that through our observation we have made trillions of miles away from the nearest example of the celestial body being mentioned, that "we" can indeed recognize the tell tale signs of the presents of the elements you identified. Again this is the EXACT same type of faith we use to believe in God. You have harnessed this faith and pointed towards men who you believe that are smarter than you, and have taken their "word" to be Truth. When in reality they speak of theory and speculation.

You seem to confuse observation and measurement, or experimentation, with faith.
I'm not taking the word of any person who I think is smarter than me. I've performed some of those experiments and I can see that where they point.
Surely, you've heard a car passing by you. As it comes towards you, you hear a higher frequency sound from the engine. As it goes away from you, you hear a lower frequency sound from the same engine. But the engine is always sending out the same sound. What happens is an effect which was coined by first described by a guy named Doppler... so it was called the "Doppler Effect". This effect can be found in any kind of wave phenomena.
And one such phenomena is light.
After determining the light spectrum from a special kind of star, another scientist, pointed his telescope and spectrometer to other galaxies. What he found was what has been called the "redshift", or light from these stars reaches us but it's frequency components are all shifted towards the red part of the spectrum, or to lower frequencies. This means that these galaxies are actually moving away from our. Just so you know, this scientist was Edwin Hubble. He charted a few tens of such galaxies and all were moving away. And what's more: the farther away they were, the faster they were moving, the more pronounced the redshift was.
This is completely compatible with galaxies moving isotropically (spherically) away from a central point.
So, if galaxies are moving away from a central point... moving way back in time, they must have been all clumped together.
From this, the big bang theory was born. It wasn't a perfect theory, but it's explained by evidence.
The curious thing is that more astronomers have been looking at the sky and they have confirmed what Hubble did and then some.

See? some observation, some experimentation, some reasoning.... and things make sense. No faith required. No super intelligent men required. If Hubble did these experiments in the early 20th Century, then even you could do them with a toy telescope, a prism and a webcam. You'd just need to know what to look for.

Again not a known fact.. That is why it is referred to as a theory.

So you claim the evolution of the species is just a theory?
Would you agree that it can merit a high probability of being correct? What's the alternative?
How do you explain bacteria that become immune to antibiotics?
How do you explain that all animals with interior skeleton are similar? Same bone placement, same back structure, same ribcage... only a few differences to account for different habitats, different strategies to stay alive.

Or these beings never existed the way you believe them to exist.. It takes a large amount of faith to look at tiny fragments of bone (most of which are no larger than a dime) construct them in a semi recognizable human skull shape and assume that "we" are directly related to them, with nothing other to go on, than one or two people's best educated guesses, and proclaim this mess as Truth!

So, all pre-human skulls ever found were tiny bone fragments that had to pieced together?
How on earth did paleontologists ever managed to piece together a T-rex?
It takes no faith at all to look at a complete skull and see that it belonged to some ape-like animal, but had more cranial volume than any present-day non-human primate. It must have logically belonged to a pre-human primate, or hominid. Of course, things don't work out quite so simply, that's why there were Neanderthal's and other hominids that, (notice this) probably, didn't evolve and went extinct.

Your argument was defeated in the late 1940's when the scrolls at Comoran were found.

I just did a google search and the only place such scrolls ever come up is in a game. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction, so I can know what you're talking about?

This only makes sense if one is inclined to believe one version of faith (your preferred version,) over than of another.

It makes sense if you accept evolution as the driving force towards present-day living species. It's a theory that makes sense and is compatible with evidence - evidence from the fossil record and circumstantial evidence from the observation of how the same species of animal is differently adapted to different environments... even in humans!

happy to help set the record straight.

Thank you very much!

So if I tell you I believe that we humans have a spirit/soul and that's what enables us to be able to have faith. But the other animals don't have a spirit/soul so they don't have the ability to have faith and comprehend God as creator, You just don't believe me because your an unbeliever.

If you tell me that, I ask you "how do you know that?". How do you know that an animal does not have a soul? Has anyone ever asked them? Has any person ever been able to talk to an animal and learn what they think?

So then the answers you are looking for can not come from a Christian point of view because you already reject that. I hope you find the answers to your ?'s
elsewhere but since you came here asking, I take it that you never have. Well take care and I will be praying that you find faith as your answer.

Thanks for the honesty!

I think that in making Himself only known to those who want to know Him, it naturally assist's His selection of those who are worthy to know Him eternally. It is therefore a voluntary action on the part of the human, whether it will comply with God or whether it will not, and there is no iron fist to force us to wear a mask. The evil are completely free to be evil while the good are completely free to be good. If on the other hand God lived and ruled in a physical body since the beginning of time, some of us would feel compelled to be good against our own will, and it would develop contention toward God, I guess you just have to think a bit more about why God does things the way He does. His wisdom is incredible.

So.... how did you find out about that being to want to know him?
What about all the people who are born in a different culture and are simply not taught about your god? They seek other gods and some also claim to find them. How does that work?

 

[bling]

Exactly my point.
Why is faith necessary?
Why would any being with the characteristics of god (christian, jew, muslim, etc) require faith from human beings?

All mature adults have “faith” in something or someone. It is the channeling of this “trust” (faith) toward God that is the total of what man brings to the relationship with God and God is providing all the rest.

The fact is the lowliest mature adult on earth can put his trust (faith) in his Creator and in fact might find it easier to do than the learned wise rich person.

Trusting (faith) God is contrasted with trusting self, but man is made with a needed “ego” (desire for self preservation) which is partly self center and thus somewhat selfish. We are taught (especially in the USA) to be self reliant and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. The problem is we need to be humble in order to accept “Charity” and accepting “charity” humbly and correctly is the only way for us to receive the charity. Trusting in God is humbling (contrasted with trusting self) and that humility is enough to get us to the point of swallowing our pride and accepting God’s help (forgiveness/Love/Mercy/Grace/Love).

Faith along with everything else in this world is helping willing humans accept God’s Charity.

Man’s earthly objective is not to have “faith” since we all have faith in something, but it is to obtain Godly type Love (unconditional, undeserving, sacrificial). God cannot give us this “Love” (agape) instinctively (that would be a robotic type of Love) and God cannot force this Love on us (that would not be Loving on His part or would it be Godly type Love we got). The best God can do for us is to allow us to accept the Love as an unconditional and undeserving gift, but that means accepting charity and humans do not like to take charity especially when the giver made a huge sacrifice. To correctly accept charity, humans have to have a big need for the charity and humble themselves to accept it. Thus the need for sin, the burden sin creates the need for forgiveness which is the easiest way for us to accept charity (Love, grace, mercy).

 

[pocaracas]

Good point, bling.
So we are here to obtain a "godly type love" and can only obtain it if we are charitable.... no belief required. Is that it?
I must have a lot of that type of love in stock!

 

[Biker Angel]

Good point, bling.
So we are here to obtain a "godly type love" and can only obtain it if we are charitable.... no belief required. Is that it?
I must have a lot of that type of love in stock!

No not charitable, humble and God is the one being charitable not us.
You have it backwards. Bling said:

"The problem is we need to be humble in order to accept “Charity” and accepting “charity” humbly and correctly is the only way for us to receive the charity."

 

[pocaracas]

No not charitable, humble and God is the one being charitable not us.
You have it backwards. Bling said:

"The problem is we need to be humble in order to accept “Charity” and accepting “charity” humbly and correctly is the only way for us to receive the charity."

ah.. yes... I'm sorry, I had it wrong.

So we just have to be "humble", no believing required.
But bling also defined "humble" as "trusting god"... so there is a requirement for belief. why?
Why is an almighty being so needy of belief or trust from our side?

 

[Biker Angel]

ah.. yes... I'm sorry, I had it wrong.

So we just have to be "humble", no believing required.
But bling also defined "humble" as "trusting god"... so there is a requirement for belief. why?
Why is an almighty being so needy of belief or trust from our side?

It was in Gods plan from the beginning that Satan and God would have this on going rivalry as depicted in Job 1:6-12 It is a test from God that establishes the need for faith and believing in God which makes him happy.

One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

It really has nothing to do with us. It's a battle of wits between God and Satan and we are just the pieces on their chess board.If you choose God then God moves you around the board accordingly but if you choose Satan then you simply burn in hell forever. It's really very easy to understand.