Why aren't you a Christian?

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

I began thinking. Felt great. Suddenly things began to make sense and the whole world obtained clarity. It was a short road from there.

Also there's Reduction to the absurd. Accept the hypothesis and destroy via internal contradictions.

 

[sidhe]

I'm not a Christian because I actually like Jesus. I don't see Jesus in (most) Christianity. That said, I really like liberal Episcopalians, and go to church once or twice a week. Some of them are the most Christ-like people I've ever met, in the sense of being Tiphareth-tastic.

However, my spiritual practices, and devotion to a certain Goddess, prevent me from being Christian in anything resembling the traditional definition of the word.

 

[dlamberth]

Christianity puts great value in people that is why Christianity gives more to Charity tahn any other religious group.

For Christianity, this is something that is very new in it's history. That's my point. Christianity has had 2000 years of history. In that time, over all, it's done very little to help the people. Compared to the possibilities of what it could do, it does very little. As such, compared to what it's founder desired of it's followers, it's a failure.

And...even with what it does do now, compared to the possibilities, it does very little. It’s not a religion of peace makers. Where are the pressures on our governments from the Christian communities of the world to find ways to work out our differences?

India has an extremely low % of Christians and if the hunger in India alone was wiped out 33 % of the worlds hunger problem would be wiped out.

You will notise the ones experiencing these problems you refer to are either non believers or lacking faith.

Great opportunity for a great Christian nation to help, don't you think? Instead, we are fighting wars. It's all about priorities. Why is it that we don’t see a stampede of Christians protesting our war in Iraq and instead demanding that we help feed the poor or stop genocide and such? Those kinds of dynamic forces rising up from with in the Christian community just are not there.
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There will be exceptions to every rule though.

The only rule for Christians are Love and Compassion and treating others as you would be treated. No exceptions to that rule were given. That Christianity is way more interested in saving souls than saving people. It’s priorities are way out of balance.

You will also find these problems you refer to are far greater in other countries rather than the USA.

Sadly, this is a growing problem in America. Don't be blind to how large our growing number of poor is getting to.….and again, why isn’t the Christian community pouring out everything it has to help those in need? Why do we spend trillions of dollars for war yet Christians do not support a few billion for health care for our children? Where are the Christian voices? Why is there not Christian back lash about this messed up set of priorities? I’ll tell you way…Christianity as a religion is a failure because it’s lost it’s spiritual ground.

I can give you the diametric opposite scenarios in the USA for people coming out of those negative situations after they gain knowlege of the truth of God and the Bible then growing in faith then growing in all the boutiful blessings the God if the Bible promises.

I can give you examples of non-Christians doing the same.[/FONT]

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Why is it that we don’t see a stampede of Christians protesting our war in Iraq?

I would change one thing about this. Why don't we see a stampede of Christians protesting ALL wars whenever they occur anywhere on Earth?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm not a Christian because I actually like Jesus. I don't see Jesus in (most) Christianity. That said, I really like liberal Episcopalians, and go to church once or twice a week. Some of them are the most Christ-like people I've ever met, in the sense of being Tiphareth-tastic.

However, my spiritual practices, and devotion to a certain Goddess, prevent me from being Christian in anything resembling the traditional definition of the word.

Thanks for that inspiring post. I am non-denominational myself and will worship together with other Christ-ians in YHWH's Christ that walk in His Ways and Words.
Btw, we should also realize that the CHRIST was sent to symbolic "israel/judah" FIRST as prophecied in Isaiah and many of the OT/OC prophets. [ I know this thread if for non-Christ-ians and if you want me to delete this posts because I am a CHRIST-ian I of course will do that. Guess we need to know the definition of a "CHRIST-ian" LOL.]

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm
Greek text taken from Tex-Rec

Isaiah 61:2 To call Year of good pleasure of YHWH, And a Day of Vengeance of our Elohiym, To comfort all mourners

07522 ratsown {raw-tsone'} or ratson {raw-tsone'} from 07521; TWOT - 2207a; n m
AV - favour 15, will 14, acceptable 8, delight 5, pleasure 5,

Luke 4:19 To proclaim/khruxai <2784> Year of Lord acceptable/dekton <1184>.

Luke 4:19 khruxai <2784> (5658) {TO PROCLAIM } eniauton <1763> {A YEAR} kuriou <2962> {OF LORD} dekton <1184> {ACCEPTABLE.}

1184 dektos {dek-tos'} from 1209; TDNT - 2:58,146; adj
AV - accepted 3, acceptable 2; 5

 

[Carey]

I'm not a Christian because I actually like Jesus. I don't see Jesus in (most) Christianity. That said, I really like liberal Episcopalians, and go to church once or twice a week. Some of them are the most Christ-like people I've ever met, in the sense of being Tiphareth-tastic.

However, my spiritual practices, and devotion to a certain Goddess, prevent me from being Christian in anything resembling the traditional definition of the word.

I am not very traditional either. I have been treated as a heretic by many Christians.

I am very much a Christian as to say I know the Bible is 100% accurate and I know Yeshua the son of God born of a Human woman Mary died for all our sins if we want to accept that free gift.

But I disagree with many of every church denominations doctrines. Especially on marriage and celebration of Holidays.


Goddess??

 

[MaxtheMarxist]

Carey, I understand that the Bible says plenty of stuff about people who have their own or worldly wisdom.

However, life experiences show us that worldly wisdom is certainly, at least MORE useful than biblical.

And what gives biblical wisdom any credibility outside the Bible, that other cultures and religions don't provide?

 

[PassionFruit]

How has it failed?? I am sorry I can't multi quote so you will have to read my responses in the main body of the text of your post I quoted.

God bless,
carey

I should have said that many Christians don't live up to the teachings of Christ. Also, I don't see how Christianity is truly having a impact on the world. Yes, there are some good things done in the name of Christianity, but there are a lot of bad things that had been in the name of Christianity. I see this a lot in the areas I grew up in, there are churches on every corner, but there's a lot of crime and many of other social problems. So to me, it doesn't seem that Christianity is really having an impact.

It's very easy to preach about how to do good works and such, but what has Christianity done to put these ideas into action? Besides, I've always believed that Christianity doesn't get to the root of social problems. It's just teaches us "this is good and this is bad." But why is X good and why is Y bad? Doesn't really address anything.

Also, you said God and the Bible are wisdom, well that's where I don't agree with you. I don't believe wisdom can only be found within the Bible, why does it have to be found only within the Bible? That's the issue I have with Christianity claiming it has all the answers, I don't believe it does.

 

[Mling]

I learned too much about the history of Christianity. Saw how some beautiful teachings had first become political tools and then were abandoned in favor of the politics. Decided that Christianity has little to do with Christ.

Religion, in general, seems to just add context and justification to what people want to believe and want to teach. A person who is, by their nature, generous, kind and loving, will be generous, kind and loving for Christ (or for reasons derived from another religion). People who are controlling, hateful or violent will be so for Christ, or for other religious beliefs.

It occurred to me that people have very little choice in what they believe--if something appears to be true, then it appears to be true, and it is almost impossible to decide otherwise. And so, people will choose a religion or denomination that teaches what they already believe to be true, and use that religion to further develop the beliefs they already hold.

Eventually, I decided to cut out the middle-man. I know what I believe to be true, and I stopped needing to force it into a religious context.

Or, to be less gracious. I finally noticed that there is no difference between a group of old men sitting around casting their judgments on who is so totally condemned to hell, and a bunch of 14 year old girls sitting around casting their judgments on who is the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tiest. Once I figured that out, I realized that I felt no need to impress these people in middle school, and I feel no need to impress them now.

 

[Carey]

Carey, I understand that the Bible says plenty of stuff about people who have their own or worldly wisdom.

However, life experiences show us that worldly wisdom is certainly, at least MORE useful than biblical.

And what gives biblical wisdom any credibility outside the Bible, that other cultures and religions don't provide?

100's of accurately fulfilled prophecies of the Bible.

 

[Carey]

I learned too much about the history of Christianity. Saw how some beautiful teachings had first become political tools and then were abandoned in favor of the politics. Decided that Christianity has little to do with Christ.

Religion, in general, seems to just add context and justification to what people want to believe and want to teach. A person who is, by their nature, generous, kind and loving, will be generous, kind and loving for Christ (or for reasons derived from another religion). People who are controlling, hateful or violent will be so for Christ, or for other religious beliefs.

It occurred to me that people have very little choice in what they believe--if something appears to be true, then it appears to be true, and it is almost impossible to decide otherwise. And so, people will choose a religion or denomination that teaches what they already believe to be true, and use that religion to further develop the beliefs they already hold.

Eventually, I decided to cut out the middle-man. I know what I believe to be true, and I stopped needing to force it into a religious context.

Or, to be less gracious. I finally noticed that there is no difference between a group of old men sitting around casting their judgments on who is so totally condemned to hell, and a bunch of 14 year old girls sitting around casting their judgments on who is the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tiest. Once I figured that out, I realized that I felt no need to impress these people in middle school, and I feel no need to impress them now.

You seem to be very wise.

So basically do you have to abandon being a Christian just because youwant to abandon the doctrines of a denomination or congregation??

 

[Carey]

I would change one thing about this. Why don't we see a stampede of Christians protesting ALL wars whenever they occur anywhere on Earth?

Because there are wars that must be fought until Jesus returns.
If we dont skill 1000's of terrorists they will kill millions of innocents.
And if you think you can argue this fact your are silly.

 

[Carey]

I should have said that many Christians don't live up to the teachings of Christ. Also, I don't see how Christianity is truly having a impact on the world. Yes, there are some good things done in the name of Christianity, but there are a lot of bad things that had been in the name of Christianity. I see this a lot in the areas I grew up in, there are churches on every corner, but there's a lot of crime and many of other social problems. So to me, it doesn't seem that Christianity is really having an impact.

It's very easy to preach about how to do good works and such, but what has Christianity done to put these ideas into action? Besides, I've always believed that Christianity doesn't get to the root of social problems. It's just teaches us "this is good and this is bad." But why is X good and why is Y bad? Doesn't really address anything.

Also, you said God and the Bible are wisdom, well that's where I don't agree with you. I don't believe wisdom can only be found within the Bible, why does it have to be found only within the Bible? That's the issue I have with Christianity claiming it has all the answers, I don't believe it does.

So don't think Christianity has done enough?? I wonder how the world would be without it??

You think Christianity only teaches good from bad??
You obviously have no Idea what Christianity is all about.

The reason wisdom can only be found in the Bible is becayse it is the written word directly from the creator of all that is.

All other religions and sciences just borrowed from the Bible and added and took away from its teachings.

 

[Mling]

You seem to be very wise.

So basically do you have to abandon being a Christian just because youwant to abandon the doctrines of a denomination or congregation??

If I just didn't like the doctrines of a particular denomination or congregation, I would have done what most religious people do, and found one I did think was preaching the truth.

It was the fact that "truth" has been reduced to doctrines that I am opposed to. Doctrines are "official" truths. Things that have been declared true by respected councils of respected humans. But in reality, there can be no such thing as "official" truth. What is true exists. What is not true, doesn't. The Holocaust either happened or it didn't, regardless of what a President says, and Jesus was God/human or whatever he was, regardless of what a council says.

And yet, religions are based on these councils declaring the official truth that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine, or that Jesus's divinity overtook his humanity at the end of his life, or that it didn't, or whatever. To belong to the religion, you must declare your belief in the doctrine. Not in seeking the truth, but in accepting the declaration of a council of humans who could never really know what they are declaring anyway.

And why do these doctrines, these religions, exist? Is it to encourage the spread of Christ's message? Of course not. Christ's message was to the little people. There is nothing in there about how to establish a Christian country or what a Christian political party should look like. The message of Christ assumes that the follower of Christ is a politically weak person, possibly homeless and with very few funds, whose main goal in life is to serve.

So, why do these religions, based on doctrines, exist? Constantine declared them true in order to unite Rome. The Vikings accepted them out of the belief that a person who can overcome death must be the biggest, baddest warlord around and that allying themselves with him would ensure better plunder and power. Modern people use religious beliefs, based on human doctrines, in order to add the legitimacy of "because God said so" to political beliefs.

My beef is not with any particular doctrine or denomination, it is with reducing truth to doctrine, and with using personal moral teachings as the basis of social clubs called religious denominations.

edit: ahh...a good wrap-up. I do not want my pursuit of truth to be confined by a forced declaration of "official" truth. I needed to abandon the concept of doctrines because it was inhibiting, not encouraging, my pursuit of truth.

 

[Carey]

Originally Posted by Carey
Christianity puts great value in people that is why Christianity gives more to Charity tahn any other religious group.

For Christianity, this is something that is very new in it's history. That's my point. Christianity has had 2000 years of history. In that time, over all, it's done very little to help the people. Compared to the possibilities of what it could do, it does very little. As such, compared to what it's founder desired of it's followers, it's a failure.

And...even with what it does do now, compared to the possibilities, it does very little. It’s not a religion of peace makers. Where are the pressures on our governments from the Christian communities of the world to find ways to work out our differences?

The only way to work out our differences with some regimes, religions, groups etc. is war.

We always first try to reason but when they will not reason war is necessary.

But I agree the potential of Christianity has not yet been realized. But it will be when Christ returns as prophecies like all the other 100's of fulfilled prophecies in the Bible.



Quote:
India has an extremely low % of Christians and if the hunger in India alone was wiped out 33 % of the worlds hunger problem would be wiped out.

You will notise the ones experiencing these problems you refer to are either non believers or lacking faith.
Great opportunity for a great Christian nation to help, don't you think? Instead, we are fighting wars. It's all about priorities. Why is it that we don’t see a stampede of Christians protesting our war in Iraq and instead demanding that we help feed the poor or stop genocide and such? Those kinds of dynamic forces rising up from with in the Christian community just are not there.

Why are there not stampedes of any faith or non Faith doing as you suggest??

The reason why Christians dont in mass is because most are wise enough to know you must defend yourself and sometimes that requires war. You can turn your cheek if slapped but if they are throwing rocks , shooting at you with AK47 or trying to bomb you or shoot kassam rockets at you that will kill you. This would remove your ability to even turn the other cheek.
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Quote:
There will be exceptions to every rule though.
The only rule for Christians are Love and Compassion and treating others as you would be treated. No exceptions to that rule were given. That Christianity is way more interested in saving souls than saving people. It’s priorities are way out of balance.

Yes Christians should do unto others as they would have them do unto them. If I am trying to kill you,your family , or your countrymen, or your Brothers in your religion because of your religion I expect you to kill me before I do.This is how I would expect you to do unto my evil self if I were to trying to do those things.

Lets see the average life span is around 70 years. Compared to eternal life. Where should priorites be.


Quote:
You will also find these problems you refer to are far greater in other countries rather than the USA.
Sadly, this is a growing problem in America. Don't be blind to how large our growing number of poor is getting to.….and again, why isn’t the Christian community pouring out everything it has to help those in need? Why do we spend trillions of dollars for war yet Christians do not support a few billion for health care for our children? Where are the Christian voices? Why is there not Christian back lash about this messed up set of priorities? I’ll tell you way…Christianity as a religion is a failure because it’s lost it’s spiritual ground.

Because without wars there would be no freedom for you to argue this and there would be no Christians left.


Quote:
I can give you the diametric opposite scenarios in the USA for people coming out of those negative situations after they gain knowlege of the truth of God and the Bible then growing in faith then growing in all the boutiful blessings the God if the Bible promises.
I can give you examples of non-Christians doing the same.

Yes but a small % of the whole are non Christian and their blessings overall will pail in comaprison.[/FONT]

 

[PassionFruit]

So don't think Christianity has done enough?? I wonder how the world would be without it??

You think Christianity only teaches good from bad??
You obviously have no Idea what Christianity is all about.

The reason wisdom can only be found in the Bible is becayse it is the written word directly from the creator of all that is.

All other religions and sciences just borrowed from the Bible and added and took away from its teachings.

I'm sorry you don't like how I feel about Christanity, but that's how I feel. I think I do have an idea of what Christanity is about, and I don't feel that it has anything to offer me.

I don't know why you're here in this thread. First of all, the Bible was written by man, people, not some divine being.

So you're basically justifying war, because well that's what has to be done to before Jesus comes back? What kind of ideaology is that? What do you mean if we don't kill 1000 terrorist? Define what a terrorist is, because that kind of thinking doesn't sit well with me, and when that kind of violence is being justified in the name of Christianity that really doesn't sit well with me.

And going on what Mling said, I have issues with doctrines being labed as "truth."

 

[Carey]

I'm sorry you don't like how I feel about Christanity, but that's how I feel. I think I don't have an idea of what Christanity is about, and I don't feel that it has anything to offer me.

I don't know why you're here in this thread. First of all, the Bible was written by man, people, not some divine being.

So you're basically justifying war, because well that's what has to be done to before Jesus comes back? What kind of ideaology is that? What do you mean if we don't kill 1000 terrorist? Define what a terrorist is, because that kind of thinking doesn't sit well with me, and when that kind of violence is being justified in the name of Christianity that really doesn't sit well with me.

And going on what Mling said, I have issues with doctrines being labed as "truth."

I agree 100% doctrines are usually wrong. That is why I have been labeled heretic by many deniminational "doctrine" followers.

But the bible is never wrong because the Surpernatural God that has protected the Bible from utter destruction and supernaturally made it be spread across the earth is also the God that supernaturally guided the hands of the men who put on paper.

 

[Carey]

If I just didn't like the doctrines of a particular denomination or congregation, I would have done what most religious people do, and found one I did think was preaching the truth.

It was the fact that "truth" has been reduced to doctrines that I am opposed to. Doctrines are "official" truths. Things that have been declared true by respected councils of respected humans. But in reality, there can be no such thing as "official" truth. What is true exists. What is not true, doesn't. The Holocaust either happened or it didn't, regardless of what a President says, and Jesus was God/human or whatever he was, regardless of what a council says.

And yet, religions are based on these councils declaring the official truth that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine, or that Jesus's divinity overtook his humanity at the end of his life, or that it didn't, or whatever. To belong to the religion, you must declare your belief in the doctrine. Not in seeking the truth, but in accepting the declaration of a council of humans who could never really know what they are declaring anyway.

And why do these doctrines, these religions, exist? Is it to encourage the spread of Christ's message? Of course not. Christ's message was to the little people. There is nothing in there about how to establish a Christian country or what a Christian political party should look like. The message of Christ assumes that the follower of Christ is a politically weak person, possibly homeless and with very few funds, whose main goal in life is to serve.

So, why do these religions, based on doctrines, exist? Constantine declared them true in order to unite Rome. The Vikings accepted them out of the belief that a person who can overcome death must be the biggest, baddest warlord around and that allying themselves with him would ensure better plunder and power. Modern people use religious beliefs, based on human doctrines, in order to add the legitimacy of "because God said so" to political beliefs.

My beef is not with any particular doctrine or denomination, it is with reducing truth to doctrine, and with using personal moral teachings as the basis of social clubs called religious denominations.

edit: ahh...a good wrap-up. I do not want my pursuit of truth to be confined by a forced declaration of "official" truth. I needed to abandon the concept of doctrines because it was inhibiting, not encouraging, my pursuit of truth.

I agree 100 % most doctrines are wromg.

I have never found a denomination or Church I agree with 100 %.

This is the closest I have found to what I get from the Bible.

http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/...ig_video&JServSessionIdr008=xqeobfd942.app25a

 

[Mling]

I agree 100 % most doctrines are wromg.

I have never found a denomination or Church I agree with 100 %.

This is the closest I have found to what I get from the Bible.

http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/...ig_video&JServSessionIdr008=xqeobfd942.app25a

That's not quite what I'm saying. If "most doctrines are wrong" then the possibility of finding the right doctrine still exists. The right doctrine may not exist now but it is theoretically possible.

I'm saying that there is no such thing as "right doctrine." The concept of doctrine is irredeemably flawed. Even if a doctrine did happen to get every statement 100% correct, it would still be wrong because the ideas have been placed in the context of "doctrine."

It is not wrong doctrine that I am opposed to, it is doctrine in and of itself.

 

[dlamberth]

S
The reason wisdom can only be found in the Bible is becayse it is the written word directly from the creator of all that is.

In keeping with the thread of this OP, what you have just written also plays into why I'm not a Christian. There are a several reasons why:
1. For me, the ONLY Holy Book directly written by the hand of God can ONLY be found with in life itself. All other books have passed through the hand of man. As such the ONLY place where wisdom was directly handed down from God can ONLY be found with in life.

2. In my study of the source of the text that today we find in the Bible, we see that none of the authors ever saw Jesus or heard Him speak. What they wrote down was from what they heard in the oral stories that circulated. So we have no first hand accounts of Jesus. Nor do we have text that is "written word directly from the creator", as you say. Wisdom can be found in the Bible, yes. But as for Christianity and what I see, that wisdom seems to be rarely followed.
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3. There are other early Christian text of those ancient times that point towards a different belief about Jesus than what we see in the text that were chosen for the Bible. As such, we can see that those first followers of Jesus did not have any single belief about Him.

All other religions and sciences just borrowed from the Bible and added and took away from its teachings.

Your statement speaks volumes about why I’m not a Christian.

.
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