Why are you here?

[Garyzenuf]

I am assuming that you are asking why I am here on E&M.

I came here to share and read differing points of views on ethical and moral issues.

As my icon shows, I am seeking answers and direction for myself (personally and spiritually). By reading the thoughts and beliefs of others, it helps me to focus on my path.

Ditto.

*

 

[Zaac]

See I think that following those two Commandments (love God and love thy neighbor as thyself) is what makes someone a Christian. I think that trying to act like Jesus, the Christ, did during His lifetime is one makes one Christ-like.

Watersmoon, adhering to those two doesn't make someone a Christian. Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior does.

Keeping those two commandments results from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But obedience to those 2 commands demands that we adhere to everything else that God has commanded under the New Covenant.

 

[Zaac]

Right.

And all the other Christians who also hold firmly to the word of God, but disagree with YOU, are really just disagreeing with God, and not YOU at all.

You can disagree with me till the cows come home and I won't take issue with it. You disagree with the word of God and you'll hear from me.

We've been down this road with you many times before. If you have something of actual substance to say, please share it. But to continue to assert your view is objective reality, but only use your subjective perceptions as evidence is getting old.

And I've been down this road with you before too. If you have anything of substance to say whereby you can disprove the absolute truth of God's word and those at odds with it as being anything but false teachers, you come back and let me know.

Your whining is getting old.

 

[Zaac]

I applaud PCF for this thread. Anything which attempts to build a consensus of understanding is a worthwhile endeavor. On the other hand, Zaac's attitude is atrocious.

Gosh, that's one of the NICEST comments I've received in a while.

Now, a word to Zaac. You are a very poor prophet. You do not take your example from the disciples, and are not a mouthpiece of God. The points you make are found solely in the theodices and legitimations of modern fundamentalism.

Umm, the disciples were about as fundamental as it gets.

The disciples argued convincingly with Greek sophists, using only the logic available to all humans.

Good for them. Scriptural revelation hadn't been completed at that time. I have the good fortune of having God's completed revelational Scripture. I don't have to argue with folks about God's word, and I certainly am not tasked of Him to prove that it is His word.

Neither you nor anyone else has to like that.That's just how it is. But that's why I can go and boldly preach the Gospel where others will not go.

God is God ALONE. There doesn't have to be a consensus.

You rely wholly on arguments from knowledge that exists within your interpretation of scripture, and this belies the emptiness of your words.

Come back and share with me after you settle on what it is you are following. I let Scripture testify of Itself. If the masses disagree with Scripture, I can't do anything about it. I'm just delivering the message as God has commanded.

I know that infuriates most people. I've even said it would. Might get me killed one day. But it is what it is. I'm not called to open the door to the confusion of errant teaching just because it hurts somebody's feelings that their viewpoint is not even considered.

If you think the words are empty, I don't have a problem with that. I'll press on in Christ nonetheless and continue to preach His word AS IS.

If you cannot form an argument for your faith with the logic available universally,

I don't have to form an argument for my faith. I can tell ya why I love Jesus and why everyone who wants to be saved should love Him too.

you are no follower of any sort of Apostolic tradition.

Good. I'm not an apostle. I follow the way of Christ, not the way of the apostles.

As far the the example of Christ goes, and ethics and moral behavior - I refuse to take solid black and white stances, because I have no authority to do so on most issues. All I can say is when it comes to following Christ, if your beliefs lead to a lot of finger pointing, you're doing it wrong.

Then you do you and the ones of us whom Christ has called to boldly and righteously judge will continue to do so.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Watersmoon, adhering to those two doesn't make someone a Christian. Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior does.

Keeping those two commandments results from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But obedience to those 2 commands demands that we adhere to everything else that God has commanded under the New Covenant.

Well, one has to accept Jesus first - or they wouldn't be a Christian at all. But I think that one acts like a Christian when they just follow those two commandments, and I think that someone acts Christ-like by being loving to all other people and doing other things that Jesus, the Christ, did while He was here on Earth (like helping the poor, or teaching others in a loving way, or healing people - though we mere mortals have to heal mainly with medicine instead of miracles).

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I'm an operative of the Atheistic Liberal News Media (DRINK!), secretly infiltrating Christian Forums to subvert the traditional family structure by voting for Obama, thereby causing the downfall of Western civilization.

Okay, so my real story isn't as cool sounding as that. I was looking for a forum to discuss, debate, & learn more about Christianity. I got banned from Christianity.com for disagreeing with a moderator in a debate. So, I googled "Christian Forum" looking for a place where the moderators didn't ban people that disagreed with them. CF was the first result.

I stuck around because I like the community. I became a moderator for the same reason.

How does a moderator get removed from that position? It's more than bizaare and just a bit more than inappropriate that you are a moderator here.

 

[Zaac]

Well, one has to accept Jesus first - or they wouldn't be a Christian at all. But I think that one acts like a Christian when they just follow those two commandments, and I think that someone acts Christ-like by being loving to all other people and doing other things that Jesus, the Christ, did while He was here on Earth (like helping the poor, or teaching others in a loving way, or healing people - though we mere mortals have to heal mainly with medicine instead of miracles).

That's true. And those things appear to be where most people stop when it comes to what they think is Christlike. But Christ kept ALL of the commandments, not just the ones that pertained to helping the poor, or teaching others in a loving way.

If we are to be Christlike, we have to strive to live obediently to the same things that He did.

 

[tcampen]

You can disagree with me till the cows come home and I won't take issue with it. You disagree with the word of God and you'll hear from me.

What's the difference?

And I've been down this road with you before too. If you have anything of substance to say whereby you can disprove the absolute truth of God's word and those at odds with it as being anything but false teachers, you come back and let me know.

Ok here you go.

Noahs flood NEVER litereally happened as stated in the bible. There is ZERO evidence of it happening. ALL the evidence, biological, geological, anthropological, genetic and more ALL establish a world-wide flood in Noah's time (or any other as depicted in the bible) never happened.

The universe is NOT a mere 6,000 years old, as stated in the bible by adding up the ages and lineages in the bible. ALL the physical evidence available shows the earth and the universe to many, many times older than a literal interpretation of the bible.

Matthew and Luke provide different lineages for Jesus being a decendant from David through the male line. They cannot both be true, so at least one MUST be wrong.

These are a few really easy examples that show errors in the bible. These biblical claims are ABSOLUTELY not supported by anything other than what is written in the bible. And I could explain circular logic with regard to any infallibility claim you might assert, but you don't trust logic and reason, so what's the point?

 

[tcampen]

I have the good fortune of having God's completed revelational Scripture. I don't have to argue with folks about God's word, and I certainly am not tasked of Him to prove that it is His word.

On what basis do you assert the bible YOU rely on is "God's completed revelational Scripture." Do you read a protestant bible or a catholic bible, which has 7 more books in it than the protestant version? HOW did you determine one to be "God's completed revelational Scripture" over the other? Keep in mind that this difference splits the Body of Christ in half.

 

[morningstar2651]

How does a moderator get removed from that position? It's more than bizaare and just a bit more than inappropriate that you are a moderator here.

I chose to moderate the support category. What that means is that I handle the welcome area and the support area, as well as signature reports, PM reports, visitor message reports, and avatar reports.

Moderation on CF is by consensus - no moderator can act unilaterally. I'm on a team of Christian moderators. We vote on which actions to take.

If you have a complaint, here is the complaint box.

 

[Beanieboy]

You're a Buddhist,right? I'd be careful with that "spirit".

You have a right to your opinion, but I see the fruit of the Spirit in it.

Yall claim such erudition, but lack the good sense to seek God and His understanding.

Again, you have a right to your opinion.

What spirit are you talking about?

Maybe you don't know the Spirit of which I speak of. Food for thought.

You're a Buddhist. You kinda lack the indwelling of God to be able to know what the focus of the Christian should be.

Interesting opinion. However, since I left the religion aspect of Christianity, I feel far closer to God. I realize that no matter what someone says, it doesn't matter. You can say that I am a purple unicorn if you wish, but it doesn't make it so, and it makes me think that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your focus is on the law, far more than on love.
That is what the Pharisees focused on in the Gospel.

It appears that you, much like the rest of the anti-fundie clique, are confused about what yall call "fundamental" Christianity believes. You take what you think we believe so that you can play the victim.

We're over it.

No. It saddens the God in me. The Man in me, the human part, is usually frustrated, annoyed, and wants it to do the world a favor and have the whole thing just to collapse upon itself. But the God in me, the stronger part, the part that I feed, is saddened. It saddens the God in me to see people creating a false image of God, one of haughtiness, judging on appearance, thinking that some men are qualified to judge the hearts of others, even if they only know them by the internet, and haven't had one conversation face to face with them ever. It saddens me to see people hold up a cheap imitation of a God that reflects man, and push others away, thinking God is an ogre, unfair, unjust, uncaring, petty, cruel, and not even up to humankind standards.

Yall are the ones who appear to be filled with a lack of love. Anytime anyone disagrees with ya, ya start screaming about hate and bigotry.

I simply posted why I come here. I like the exchange of ideas. I like the people. I need to bounce my own beliefs off of others. I have few people that will even talk about spirituality with me without trying to change the subject, getting uncomfortable, or having no idea what I'm talking about.

In response, you judged my reasons. You judged me. You offered no reasons of your own, but they are obvious.

You come to exalt yourself. You come to claim that you alone hold the Truth of God. You come to judge who is and isn't Christian under your criteria. It's ridiculous. And you hide behind all of it by saying, "It's not what I think. It's what God says...", only, hardly anyone agrees with you. I see no love in you. I see harsh judging, meanspirited posts, pettiness, sarcasm, and no fruit of the Spirit.

To me, you are a blind guide. I judge you only because you have done so to me, have provoked it. And "as you judge, so shall you be judged", in shallowness, in all of the laws of Leviticus, with no mercy, no love, and condemnation. That is what you are bringing upon yourself, and yet, tell me that I am lost, and am lacking in love?

You're a Buddhist. There's just not much Christians should be accepting from you when it comes to reaching out to God.

You don't accept much from Christians who disagree with you. You preach, but don't listen, because you have pride, think yourself above reproach, above being taught.

I don't demand that you listen to me at all. As a Buddhist, however, I don't limit how, from whom, or when God speaks. God can speak through a child, an atheist, television, a dream. I don't worship the bible and keep God contained within it, anymore than one should build a church, and use it like a cage for God.

The world needs a Savior. Peace will come when the Prince of Peace returns and brings it.

I'm going to live in love and peace now.
Are you happy to simply wait until Christ's return and make him do all the work?

Again, you're a Buddhist. Why would I or any other Christian receive anything about God from you?

I haven't really heard you listen to anyone, Christian or otherwise.

Don't tell me that you're one of those "Christian Buddhists"?

I'm not, but I don't know why that would bother you, unless it is out of your criteria, and unless you died on a cross, what your criteria is doesn't matter to anyone.

It sure is simple. We are told in His word that love DEMANDS obedience otherwise the person is lying about knowing Him.

A half-truth is still a lie.

And again, you bring all back to OBEDIENCE and LAW, a profession Pharisee, and fool no one, but perhaps, yourself.

From what I've read, the only reason you come here is to judge other people, tell Christians that they aren't Christians according to you, and exalt yourself.

I've seen you do nothing else.

 

[gwenmead]

That's what most folks who reject Christ and the Bible say. The very text that they say is not absolute truth is the very text that they call upon to judge what they think a Christian should be and how a Christian should act.

It has nothing to do with whether or not the Bible has any sort of "absolute truth" to it whatsoever. Nonbelievers hold Christians up to the standards held in the Bible because the Bible is the book you have chosen as your guiding text. It's also the book that contains the most information about the life and actions of Christ - you know, that guy you're supposed to emulate by trying to be like him? I.e., "Christlike".

If you don't like it, don't use the Bible as your rulebook. Do your own thing instead, and slap the label "Christian" on it.

Oh wait. You already do that. Never mind...

Now there is an obvious problem with the above.

Yeah. It actually provides you with a standard of behavior to live up to.

But there is a larger problem. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the nonChristian to have an understanding for what a Christian is to be and how a Christian should act. Why? Because in order to have a correct understanding of Scripture, you have to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Nobody is fooled by your special pleading.

But please, keep posting. You are doing a phenomenal job on behalf of the EAC. I'm sure the Central Council will want to award you themselves for a job well done.

Good day to you, sir.

 

[morningstar2651]

How does one become indwelt by the holy spirit?

 

[roflcopter101]

And what does indwelt mean?

 

[WatersMoon110]

That's true. And those things appear to be where most people stop when it comes to what they think is Christlike. But Christ kept ALL of the commandments, not just the ones that pertained to helping the poor, or teaching others in a loving way.

If we are to be Christlike, we have to strive to live obediently to the same things that He did.

Jesus, the Christ, did not hold to the Old Laws (of Judaism) when they got in the way of important things - He was willing to walk more than was "allowed" to heal a sick person. He told us that if our ox gets stuck in a pit on the sabbath, it was okay to pull it out. Christ gave us two new Commandments. These are what we must follow to be Christians. Personally, I think that anyone following those two (love thy neighbor and love thy God) will also be acting in a way that follows the original 10 (second copy of tablets *wink*) Commandments.

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to get at anymore. Are you saying that people who are helping the poor, tending to the sick, or teaching others in a positive way are not Christ-like?

I guess what I am trying to get at is that I think that there are Christians who act Christ-like but there are also those who don't. And, from my perspective, there are non-Christians that have also acted in Christ-like ways (even though they were not trying to follow His teachings, and didn't worship Him).

 

[KCKID]

You have a right to your opinion, but I see the fruit of the Spirit in it.

Again, you have a right to your opinion.

Maybe you don't know the Spirit of which I speak of. Food for thought.

Interesting opinion. However, since I left the religion aspect of Christianity, I feel far closer to God. I realize that no matter what someone says, it doesn't matter. You can say that I am a purple unicorn if you wish, but it doesn't make it so, and it makes me think that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your focus is on the law, far more than on love.
That is what the Pharisees focused on in the Gospel.

No. It saddens the God in me. The Man in me, the human part, is usually frustrated, annoyed, and wants it to do the world a favor and have the whole thing just to collapse upon itself. But the God in me, the stronger part, the part that I feed, is saddened. It saddens the God in me to see people creating a false image of God, one of haughtiness, judging on appearance, thinking that some men are qualified to judge the hearts of others, even if they only know them by the internet, and haven't had one conversation face to face with them ever. It saddens me to see people hold up a cheap imitation of a God that reflects man, and push others away, thinking God is an ogre, unfair, unjust, uncaring, petty, cruel, and not even up to humankind standards.



I simply posted why I come here. I like the exchange of ideas. I like the people. I need to bounce my own beliefs off of others. I have few people that will even talk about spirituality with me without trying to change the subject, getting uncomfortable, or having no idea what I'm talking about.

In response, you judged my reasons. You judged me. You offered no reasons of your own, but they are obvious.

You come to exalt yourself. You come to claim that you alone hold the Truth of God. You come to judge who is and isn't Christian under your criteria. It's ridiculous. And you hide behind all of it by saying, "It's not what I think. It's what God says...", only, hardly anyone agrees with you. I see no love in you. I see harsh judging, meanspirited posts, pettiness, sarcasm, and no fruit of the Spirit.

To me, you are a blind guide. I judge you only because you have done so to me, have provoked it. And "as you judge, so shall you be judged", in shallowness, in all of the laws of Leviticus, with no mercy, no love, and condemnation. That is what you are bringing upon yourself, and yet, tell me that I am lost, and am lacking in love?

You don't accept much from Christians who disagree with you. You preach, but don't listen, because you have pride, think yourself above reproach, above being taught.

I don't demand that you listen to me at all. As a Buddhist, however, I don't limit how, from whom, or when God speaks. God can speak through a child, an atheist, television, a dream. I don't worship the bible and keep God contained within it, anymore than one should build a church, and use it like a cage for God.

I'm going to live in love and peace now.
Are you happy to simply wait until Christ's return and make him do all the work?

I haven't really heard you listen to anyone, Christian or otherwise.


I'm not, but I don't know why that would bother you, unless it is out of your criteria, and unless you died on a cross, what your criteria is doesn't matter to anyone.


And again, you bring all back to OBEDIENCE and LAW, a profession Pharisee, and fool no one, but perhaps, yourself.

From what I've read, the only reason you come here is to judge other people, tell Christians that they aren't Christians according to you, and exalt yourself.

I've seen you do nothing else.

I think you've just been 'dogged', Zaac. And, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of Beanieboy. You really DO need to step back and take a long, hard look at yourself. Yes, the same with me, the same with a lot of us, but the Pharasaical side of you really does tip the scales quite heavily. Why do you feel the legalistic side of your Christianity to be all important?

 

[Zaac]

I think you've just been 'dogged', Zaac. And, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of Beanieboy. You really DO need to step back and take a long, hard look at yourself. Yes, the same with me, the same with a lot of us, but the Pharasaical side of you really does tip the scales quite heavily. Why do you feel the legalistic side of your Christianity to be all important?

Yall are funny. I don't have a legalistic side. Everything is done in balance. I just know enough to know that all this "feel good" let's pretend we're living in love while living in disobedience stuff is a farce.

The Bible says 2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

1 John 2:4-6 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.



2 Corinthians 9:13
Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

 

[tcampen]

I think you've just been 'dogged', Zaac. And, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of Beanieboy. You really DO need to step back and take a long, hard look at yourself. Yes, the same with me, the same with a lot of us, but the Pharasaical side of you really does tip the scales quite heavily. Why do you feel the legalistic side of your Christianity to be all important?

The greatest irony in all this is that Beanieboy has presented a more Christ-like example in that latest post than anyone I've seen here in a long time.

While some of us here may not consider ourselves christian, particularly in the Zaac sense of the word, it is not as though we reject the wisdom of Jesus where it can be objectively found in the Gospels, just as universal wisdom is in Buddhism and every other positive faith in the world. Such wisdom transcends any particular dogma.

Beanieboy, thank you for such an inspired post. It is one of the best I've read in my 5 years here at CF.

 

[tcampen]

Yall are funny. I don't have a legalistic side. Everything is done in balance. I just know enough to know that all this "feel good" let's pretend we're living in love while living in disobedience stuff is a farce.

Zaac, your are in the deep minority here, even among your fellow Christians in how you approach your faith. Your arrogance in thinking you're right and everyone else is wrong is a testament to your lack of humility, or understnading of love, compassion, and humanity. If you can come up with a single rational basis for ANY of your conclusory assertions, please share even one. But until you provide something of substance, you are just spewing empty rhetoric.

 

[roflcopter101]

Yall are funny. I don't have a legalistic side. Everything is done in balance. I just know enough to know that all this "feel good" let's pretend we're living in love while living in disobedience stuff is a farce.

Wow, how respectful.
How is it a farce to believe in something you develop yourself, rather than strictly adhering to someone else's interpretation of morality?
Your cited passages are in fact supporting Beanieboy's post, because he is walking as Jesus did, with love! To belittle another person just because said person has a different approach to life than you do is unreasonable and mean-spirited. =( ensues.