Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 10, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
But God created people knowing what they'd do. He knew he'd torture them forever and yet he created them anyway. Sounds sadistic and evil to me.

Thus you were taught.
There is truth, a better way, the way of Jesus to learn.

aiki · Jul 10, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
But God created people knowing what they'd do. He knew he'd torture them forever and yet he created them anyway. Sounds sadistic and evil to me.

But what if in creating a world where the maximum number of people would freely choose to be saved, God had to allow people not to choose salvation, too? It seems very evident to me that this is an unavoidable consequence of giving people the freedom to choose. Some will choose for God and others against Him. If, in a world where we have real free agency, God wants to save anyone, He must allow some to choose to perish. That doesn't sound like a sadistic and evil God to me, but One who is working to maximize as good an outcome as possible under the constraints of our free agency.

Hawkins · Jul 10, 2017

dc87 said:
This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?

He created me, gave me a spirit im supposed to make sure conforms to his destinity - otherwise im doomed. gee.... thanks :/ so gracious of You. Sometimes im like... can I go back to not existing.... no? k... thanks for nothing! (i say that sarcastically today but not always)

What am I not realizing?

We can't ask to be born. No one can. it's the choice of everyone's parents. That's how it works, or no humans can exist. Law applies to everyone fairly under the circumstance that not a single one of them ever asked for being born, but a free determination from their parents.

adhidw · Jul 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
When demons control and direct the steps of people,
there is much more than a language barrier.
The deception is very great, and few escape it.

(for example: there was no human life at all, before YHWH created Adam, and no human was alive before they were conceived in the womb, alive as a gift from YHWH; all the fairy tales about humans living with God before they were conceived , or in any way in some previous life, is not only bogus, and demonic, but is also death-dealing /harmful/ today for those who are seeking heaven and redemption from sin in Christ Jesus)

The scriptures say;

Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations
(Jeremiah was known before he was put in his mother's womb ).

Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(before the foundation of the world, "us" were already with Him / " us " =certain individual not interchangeable ).

adhidw · Jul 10, 2017

If we can see that our existence in this perishable world are the greatest advantages that we ever have , so by then we surely can bring glory to Him.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 11, 2017

adhidw said:
scriptures

Learn what YHWH means from YHWH.
as in: " Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"

Then you won't contradict other /all/ Scripture, nor contradict yourself.

user385 · Jul 12, 2017

Hi @dc87 . It should not make anyone angry with God that God judges fallen human beings. Eternal life is received by believing in Jesus Christ. I was saved by grace through faith. We cannot be saved by works. Read Ephesians 2 and Romans 4. Everyone must be careful to interpret James 2 correctly and learn the true meaning of the words in that chapter. We cannot earn eternal life. We have all sinned in the past. We cannot be good because we have all sinned. Jesus said that only God is good. We must understand what it means to be good. Someone who has been saved cannot lose eternal life. On my blog on CF I discuss some of what I have written about more. I welcome your questions and comments.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 12, 2017

Excerpt from Ephesians 4 Living Letters The Paraphrased Epistles:

"Then we will no longer be like children,
forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different,
or has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth.

Instead
we will lovingly follow the truth at all times ...

... live no longer as the unsaved do , for they are blinded and confused.

Their closed hearts are full of darkness;
they are far away from the life of God
because
they have shut their minds against Him,

and they cannot understand His Ways.
They don't care anymore about right and wrong
and have given themselves over to impure ways.
They
stop at nothing their evil minds can think of.

But this isn't the way Christ taught you !
If you have really heard His Voice and learned from Him
the Truths concrning Himself,
Then throw off your old evil nature -- the old you
that was a partner in your evil ways ---
rotten through and through, full of lust and shame.

Now your attitudes and thoughts must all change;

Yes, you must be a new and different person,

holy and good. Clothe yourself with this new nature.

Stop lying to one another; tell the truth,

for we are parts of each other and when we lie to each other we are hurting ourselves.

....
If anyone is stealing he must stop it and begin using those hands of his
for honest work so he can give to others in need. ... ... ... "

dc87 · Jul 14, 2017

adhidw said:
Angels are spiritually beings , they live in the eternal realm that there is no change , when they were created in the first place ,by their own will chose to be white or black, then white will never change to be black vice versa .

So.... they had a free will moment....?

What? Why would they chose to be evil then? Are they stupid?

dc87 · Jul 14, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
When demons control and direct the steps of people,
there is much more than a language barrier.
The deception is very great, and few escape it.

(for example: there was no human life at all, before YHWH created Adam, and no human was alive before they were conceived in the womb, alive as a gift from YHWH; all the fairy tales about humans living with God before they were conceived , or in any way in some previous life, is not only bogus, and demonic, but is also death-dealing /harmful/ today for those who are seeking heaven and redemption from sin in Christ Jesus)

idk .... in my mind you can't judge someone on an eternal platform based on a temporal realm they were forced into.

You bring a child into a candy store when he is 4 years old and tell him not to eat the candy and he went and does it. You then send the child to jail for the rest of his life based on that one moment, one spec in time. Thats insane but is essentially the argument you are making. Now if there was a briefing before hand where the child had the choice to go into the candy store (and be tempted) or not and avoid it all together and knew of the risk... then I can somewhat understand how the child can be judged for the remainder of his life as it is very telling of the child's nature.

dc87 · Jul 14, 2017

aiki said:
But you don't create in the same manner in which God does. There are some superficial similarities between our creative acts and God's, of course, but His far outstrip in every respect anything we can manufacture. Most importantly, nothing you create is sentient. You don't impart life itself to anything as God does. And this difference makes all the difference to what God can demand of what He creates.

True, however the difference between the God-man relationship vs the parent-child or man-creation relationship is that parent and child/creation are in the same realm in which the parent is judging the child. God is judging us on an eternal reality which I (as of now) have no knowledge or awareness of and no one does until we die. Its impossible for someone living in 4 dimensions (x,y,z,time) to be fully aware of the 5th (eternity). Therefore we cannot readily understand or see the consequences of sin in the eternal realm so how are we supposed to be judged on how we react to it?

aiki said:
Determinism is an ultimately self-defeating idea. If one's thinking and conduct is simply the effect of a chain of prior circumstances, devoid of any real free agency, then how can one say that what one thinks is really true? Isn't the thought of every person determined by a prior chain of events rather than the truth or falsity of a thing? This is what determinism asserts. But if a person is espousing a view they had no real choice to espouse, how can they argue for its veracity? They're just arguing for an idea they have to argue for, whether its true or not!
....
I have no idea who adhidw is and no good reason to accept his view - offered to me second-hand by you - as the end of the matter of human free will.

I tend to agree with you however adhidw (the one whose posts in this thread are right before yours - #357, etc.... ) seems to have scriptural evidence otherwise and although it throws a wrench in what I've been taught, it indeed hints at an abstract answer to the op.

dc87 · Jul 14, 2017

Hawkins said:
We can't ask to be born. No one can. it's the choice of everyone's parents. That's how it works, or no humans can exist. Law applies to everyone fairly under the circumstance that not a single one of them ever asked for being born, but a free determination from their parents.

The parents are just the vehicle. It is determined by God since... as of right now... birth is still technically a miracle/phenomenon (too many factors to not need divine help). And parents dont judge a child correctly, its impossible. God is the only one who can judge a child fully (knowing all inner intentions and toughts). And God created Adam without a womb.... therefore human existence does not require humans.

Our discussion here is more high-level .... eternal. I need to change the title "Why are we accountable if we did not ask to exist" instead of "born" as we are not talking about this life here but the next.

aiki · Jul 14, 2017

dc87 said:
God is judging us on an eternal reality which I (as of now) have no knowledge or awareness of and no one does until we die.

Well, the Christian has no full, complete knowledge of heaven but he does have some knowledge of it from Scripture, sufficient to inform his choices while living on earth.

dc87 said:
Therefore we cannot readily understand or see the consequences of sin in the eternal realm so how are we supposed to be judged on how we react to it?

People make decisions the outcomes of which are not totally known all the time. I had a tooth pulled a while ago. I knew it would be painful to get the tooth extracted but it had to come out. It took forty minutes to get just the one tooth removed. There was cracking, cutting, snapping, prying and pressing that went on that left me in some of the worst pain of my life! Even with the painkillers I'd been prescribed, I didn't sleep for two days! Now, I had some idea of the consequences of the tooth extraction, but I had no idea they would be as extreme as they were! My friends were sympathetic to my experience but none of them said to me, "Oh, my! How horrible! How were you to know there'd be such consequences! Goodness! How awful of the dental surgeon to have caused you such terrible pain!" No, instead they nodded their heads knowingly and said things like, "Yeah, I had a tooth out, too. My face was all swollen and sore for days." Even though my pain was unexpected and severe no one responded with real surprise and no one faulted the surgeon for my experience. While I never expected all of the consequences of my choice to have my tooth out, I had sufficient knowledge of what to expect to keep my actual experience from being a surprise. So, too, with sin and its eternal consequences. We may not know all of what the consequences of our sin may be but we do know, at least, that those consequences will be destructive and death-bringing. The Bible makes this much very clear.

dc87 said:
I tend to agree with you however adhidw (the one whose posts in this thread are right before yours - #357, etc.... ) seems to have scriptural evidence otherwise and although it throws a wrench in what I've been taught, it indeed hints at an abstract answer to the op.

I would urge you to read up a bit on Molinism. Dr. William Lane Craig at www.reasonablefaith.org has some great information on this soteriological perspective. It synthesizes human free agency with God's sovereignty through His omniscience. As far as I'm concerned, this perspective does greater justice to the text of Scripture and the principles of good reasoning than the deterministic Reform/Calvinism point of view does.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 14, 2017

dc87 said:
Now if there was a briefing before hand where the child had the choice to go into the candy store (and be tempted) or not and avoid it all together and knew of the risk... then I can somewhat understand how the child can be judged for the remainder of his life as it is very telling of the child's nature.

Thus mankind thinks, in part.

The child, any age, is already dead. Nothing to save him. Nothing to help him. No goodness in him at all that anyone should desire to help him.

That's the status of all mankind.

Why should God care ?

adhidw · Jul 14, 2017

dc87 said:
So.... they had a free will moment....?

What? Why would they chose to be evil then? Are they stupid?

Yes. They could actualize their own will , but whatever stance they chose there was no point to return/repent , this is the eternal realm boundary .

When they chose to be evil , it was rooted in their own will cause they were all full state (with full knowledge and full ability )/ they had intention to rebel so not stupid.

Isa14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit

Why can’t men admit that they have no free will (positive and negative will ) in spiritual dimension ?, the deepest root is “ want to be glory “, if they are honest , they will say the glory is not for God alone, but also for them, where in their sights by their own will they still can seek God , they still can obey God, even the scriptures plainly say such Rom3:10-12 , and Isa64:6 ,times i tried to explain about it ; how can a spiritual being move to the eternal realm in peace ( realm where God is ) from this perishable realm by their own effort/will ? this is an impossible thing !, every ones living in this perishable realm surely need His power/charity to be moved so they can be out from this realm ---> Salvation is by God Grace alone , then if the premise is “ salvation is by God’s grace alone” surely the glory is for God alone .

If men still can seek, obey, prophesy , cast out the devil so there should no verse like this;
Math7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And if we firmly still believe that we have free will in spiritual dimension, so not impossible one of the victims such in Math7;22 surely us ( because we will depend on our will in every way ).
Are "obey and seek God" wrong ?, surely not but in the deepest understanding of our hart should say “ what ever I try to obey and seek if I actually have no spiritual ears , so surely I will never find and obey Him , but because no one knows who really have spiritual ears what’s wrong if I try to seek or obey ? “
Math13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear

John3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

The real obey and seek God are the works of God Himself.
Isa26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
Rev19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

dc87 · Jul 16, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
....
Why should God care?

Because we are souls He created in His image.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 16, 2017

dc87 said:
Because we are souls He created in His image.

Almost good answer. Not true though, deceptively believed by so many.

Today, according to all Scripture, most are all sons of disobedience, children of the devil, devilish souls, unwilling to repent (unwilling to stop) serving (worshiping) demons.

xianghua · Jul 19, 2017

dc87 said:
This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer.

i think that you can believe in god even with scientific evidence. its not just a belief.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 19, 2017

dc87 said:
So.... they had a free will moment....?

What? Why would they chose to be evil then? Are they stupid?

Yes.

Old Lioness · Jul 20, 2017

dc87 said:
This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?

He created me, gave me a spirit im supposed to make sure conforms to his destinity - otherwise im doomed. gee.... thanks :/ so gracious of You. Sometimes im like... can I go back to not existing.... no? k... thanks for nothing! (i say that sarcastically today but not always)

What am I not realizing?

Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

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