Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

dc87 said:

So you essentially just asserted that Heaven is more glorious than Hell is horrible? That may be debatable. Earthlings of course probably can't answer that.

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Yes, I would assert that, but I would not deny the horribleness of Hell which is beyond comprehension.

Of course no one knows here, but I think this is biblical.

dc87 said:

Its kind of just a logical determination for me. Angels were created before us (and possibly the world). Angels were obviously given a will of their own. Satan and some others did like we did and decided God was not Love and therefore does not want what was best for them. They fell. God said something like "Oh, you don't think I'm Love. K. I'll prove it. I will create these humans. Let them chose to obey me or not. They wont. And because they can't know me like you and are less priveledged I will have simpathy for them, and literally become one of them and pay the eternal price for them and they will become higher than angels, and when I say 'It is finished', you will see that without a doubt that I AM LOVE."

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I don't think God created humans to prove He is love. He is love, so He just can't help Himself from demonstrating His love, even to beings who won't love Him in return.

Ygrene Imref said:

You MUST understand my issue since you had so much to say about it.

So, I don't buy that, and it isn't pomp, but given what you have put forward I couldn't care any less if you don't appreciate whatever I have to say or offer.

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Don't care what you buy or don't buy, not my problem.

dc87 said:

Ok.... time for a full disclosure:

Salvation as explained by others is an on-going thing. For a human to continue pursuit of something there has to be a need.

I have been struggling with the feeling of NOT having enough guilt because I cannot seem to feel guilty for sins committed in a life/occupation/car (whatever analogy you want) not chosen by me. Therefore I feel that if I can come to understand why we are held accountable for something we never chose to be apart of then it will help me to be more "humbled" as you say and feel more guilty about sin and therefore feel more need for forgiveness and Christ.

Also, my son passed away a while ago and Ygrene has opened the floor to another question that coincides with my OP - why would you have children if they are bound to be accountable for a life not chosen?

There I said it.

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I'm really sorry to hear about your son.
And you shouldn't feel bad for what you wrote in your post. It was honest.


I don't feel like I feel guilty enough either. My understanding is that God will mold you into the person that He wants you to be. And in turn you will want to be the person God wants you to be. I think alot of Christians can back me up on this.

So you don't need the answer to your question really. Because God is going to do for you what you couldn't do for yourself.

There are a couple of verses i offer as proof. I don't have the actual verses right now but I'll summarize.

One says that it is God who is at work in you to have the will to do His will.

So God is the one that gives you the desire to do His will.

The other is the story of the rich man. Jesus told him to sell everything and give them to the poor. And the rich man went away sad because he loved his wealth too much. Then the disciples asked who can be saved then? And Jesus responded that some things are not possible with man but with God all things are possible.

So even if you don't have what it takes to get to heaven (lack of guilt for sins committed) if you keep asking God to save you and make you the person He wants you to be, I believe He will.

There are many more verses and i can look them up if you want.

dc87 said:

Its kind of just a logical determination for me. Angels were created before us (and possibly the world). Angels were obviously given a will of their own. Satan and some others did like we did and decided God was not Love and therefore does not want what was best for them. They fell. God said something like "Oh, you don't think I'm Love. K. I'll prove it. I will create these humans. Let them chose to obey me or not. They wont. And because they can't know me like you and are less priveledged I will have simpathy for them, and literally become one of them and pay the eternal price for them and they will become higher than angels, and when I say 'It is finished', you will see that without a doubt that I AM LOVE."

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I wonder where you got this idea that humans were made after the angels rebelled, and that humans were made in order to prove that the angels were wrong to do so. It certainly is different to the way I see it, and I can see how that is causing you problems in assessing God's character (it implies that humans were made because God acted in pride, contradicting James 1:13). Do you remember where you first formed this view? Was it perhaps a doctrine of an organised religion, or do you think it slipped in from a movie or something you read online?

I'd like to offer you this article as food for thought, so that you can consider another perspective of the fall:

Adonai Reigns : Food For Thought : The Real Enemy

dc87 said:

This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?

He created me, gave me a spirit im supposed to make sure conforms to his destinity - otherwise im doomed. gee.... thanks :/ so gracious of You. Sometimes im like... can I go back to not existing.... no? k... thanks for nothing! (i say that sarcastically today but not always)

What am I not realizing?

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will it be good for us to cause harm to each other?!, not, of course, which is why God said "shalt not kill", etc., because if we cause harm to our neighbor/cohabitant in this eternity, then the same evil will happen to us as well as to any other soul in next/future eternities, because there is an eternal circle of existence and positions of the souls...

Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 (KJV) "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been(i.e. that which happened in the previous eternity as well as in every earlier eternity) is now(i.e. the same happens in this eternity); and that which is to be(i.e. and that which will happen in the next eternity as well as in every future eternity) hath already been(i.e. already happened in the previous eternity as well as in every earlier eternity, and even in this); and God requireth that which is past.",

Ecclesiastes 9:2 (NASB) "It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear."

Blessings

cuja1 said:

So even if you don't have what it takes to get to heaven (lack of guilt for sins committed) if you keep asking God to save you and make you the person He wants you to be, I believe He will.

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dc87 said:

I've thought the same for a while now so.... when will it end

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The truth is that no one has what it takes. You don't don't need to keep asking, you need to receive it by believing what God is telling you: " For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

Read the Gospels and hear what God is saying (Romans 10:17). He has done everything that is needed. You must take him at his word (believe).

dc87 said:

I've thought the same for a while now so.... when will it end

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This is embarrassing what I'm about to tell you. I wouldn't blame you if you think I'm a complete idiot. But I was thinking about the advice I gave you and began to wonder if I should have wrote what I wrote to you.

The thing is, I'm not 100% sure that it agrees with what the Bible teaches. There are alot of Christians that would tell you that I'm wrong. And frankly I'm not 100% sure that I'm right about my belief.

But I feel like I'm in the same situation as you and I wanted to give you some hope so that you wouldn't feel the same torment that I have felt on the matter.

I have tried everything to follow God's commands as stated in the Bible and found that it only has left me in a worse state than before. The more I try, the more I fail and the less i feel like trying the next time around. It leaves me feeling angry with God, and makes me doubt His justice. Instead of feeling love toward Him, I feel hate.

There are those that will tell you that you have to follow a long list of commands to not burn for eternity in hell, and there are those that will tell you that it's all about faith.

The long list of commands doesn't really seem to be an option, so I'm going to have to lean towards the only faith doctrine.

People say you have to love God, feel guilty for displeasing God and so on and so forth. But they've never really been able to explain how to me. How do you love God when you don't? How do you feel guilty when you don't? How do you appreciate the sacrifice of Jesus when you don't? In the end someone finally told me that it doesn't really matter anyway because it is God who does the work of salvation. It's God that chooses you, not the other way around. This idea is firmly supported by many Christians as far as I can tell (especially Lutherans).

So what do you do if you think you're on a highway to hell and don't know how to change it? The Bible says that those that confess and believe in their hearts that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God will be saved. It says that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. But isn't it God that whispers to us and tells us to do these things. Isn't He the one that starts the process of salvation?

So what are we to do when all we have tried has failed? Try harder? It's never worked for me and I have no indication that it will work in the future.

So the best I can come up with is that I keep asking God to make me into the creation that He desires and leave it at that. Along the way I hope that I will learn how to love God more and be a sincere follower of Jesus. I really don't know what else to do.

But I think the worst thing you could do is continue to look for answers where there either is none or perhaps the answer is beyond our understanding.

Martin Luther said (scandalously) to sin boldly. Jesus said that those that have been forgiven much, love much. Now, I'm not saying to go out and willfully sin, but it seems like experience is often the best teacher. Maybe that's how one learns to hate sin and love God. But if you keep tormenting yourself with questions that have no answers, you might miss out on what God is trying to teach you.

So I hope you don't think badly of me for the advice I gave you, and I should have told you it's more my idea than stating it such a matter of fact way, but i just wanted to give some hope to someone who seems to be having the same struggles that I have.

dc87 said:

I'm in the same mindset. I thought we were supposed to be of no longer a carnal mindset and supposed to feel a deep guilt. That has yet to come.

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I think if you read a lot of the posts on here, it seems there are a lot of people on here that feel as we do but still believe they are saved.

I say hold on to your faith, keep praying, and keep hoping that God will make you into the type of person that loves God and wants to spend eternity with Him. Everything else may just be a distraction of the devil.

dc87 said:

I've thought the same for a while now so.... when will it end

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It will end when you place your full trust in the goodness of God, and that can not come until you have resolved the errors in your doctrinal view of His character that makes Him appear to be essentially not good. I can lead you there if you do want that resolution, all you would need to do is answer my questions without deceit. The first question I have is in post #245.

I assume someone already posed the question, If God told the OP he could go away right now, no Heaven, no Hell. no penalty, no reward, no nothing.

Simply choose to vanish into nonexistence as if you never were, or stick it out here with all the inconveniences you did not choose? What would the OP choose?

Kenny'sID said:

I assume someone already posed the question, If God told the OP he could go away right now, no Heaven, no Hell. no penalty, no reward, no nothing.

Simply choose to vanish into nonexistence as if you never were, or stick it out here with all the inconveniences you did not choose? What would the OP choose?

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Good question. I've asked myself that.

cuja1 said:

Good question. I've asked myself that.

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Maybe the OP will touch on the question as well.

dc87 said:

The rational thing to do for anyone would be to not exist.

Even those who say they are saved, would be foolish to risk someday maybe falling away and not seeing heaven.

The only exception to this are those who believe 'once saved always saved'... which kind of contradicts a lot of doctrines.

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I assumed you would easily read it from between the lines, I was asking you that question.

So which would you choose?

dc87 said:

I think God chose to do all this (save those souls who find the one who died and rose again... Jesus) in order to show the universe (including us and lucifer and all the angels) that He is Love.

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Hi there, yes I did notice you have that belief. I am wondering where you gained that belief .. specifically whether it can be substantiated by the scriptures? Do you remember where that belief was introduced? Did another Christian suggest it to you once, or did you maybe get that thought while watching a TV show or movie, or is it something that you picked up while skimming on the internet one day? Maybe it's just your own assumption about how to rationalise a particular problem. If so, then I'd quite like to analyse that problem with you, because I do not assume that the rebellion in heaven happened until the moment that the serpent tempted Eve (this is what seems the most sensible way to rationalise Genesis 3:14-15). There is no indication in the story, (and I don't know of any indication that the ancient prophets believed so either), that there was rebellion in heaven before the fall. But, it would not surprise me that someone has decided to teach that. I am just wondering whether we can sort that out in the first place, because that seems to be a good starting point for you to understand the fall as the tragedy it is, and to understand that God is longsuffering and merciful instead of irrational and cruel (as it seems to describe your present views of Him).

dc87 said:

Ok.... time for a full disclosure:

Salvation as explained by others is an on-going thing. For a human to continue pursuit of something there has to be a need.

I have been struggling with the feeling of NOT having enough guilt because I cannot seem to feel guilty for sins committed in a life/occupation/car (whatever analogy you want) not chosen by me. Therefore I feel that if I can come to understand why we are held accountable for something we never chose to be apart of then it will help me to be more "humbled" as you say and feel more guilty about sin and therefore feel more need for forgiveness and Christ.

Also, my son passed away a while ago and Ygrene has opened the floor to another question that coincides with my OP - why would you have children if they are bound to be accountable for a life not chosen?

There I said it.

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I think you've over complicated this whole idea of accountability. Each one of us has a conscience, correct? Well leave it at that. This is only a issue with you due too being exposed to a belief system that says that "We're accountable "