Why are they gay?

[ebia]

It creates a society which believes that sex and relationships are for the purpose of love between two people. It leads to a selfish attitude about relationships and sex- which destroys family.

The purpose of marriage is for family and procreation.

You have evidence for this assertion? It certainly isn't the reason most people get married, now or in the past, and it certainly isn't biblical.

Our notion about love simply between two people is a big part of our high diovorse rate and is, quite frankly, untraditional and incompatible with humanity.

Then you should ban all hetrosexual marriages that aren't for the express purpose of procreation.

 

[Ringo84]

1)What are you talking about? You were just arguing that people are born gay, therefore it nature and biology?

2) Again, because he said so doesn't mean anything, infact he doesn't seem to know anything about it. I bet he doesn't even have expertise in rat behavior, so his testamony is worthless without credentials.

3) You need help with your comprehension skills. But I'll clerify, sexuality isn't a choice, but deviating from it is. Example...we are all born straight (sexuality), but we can only deviate from it because of perversion, abuse, porn..ect.


4)Actually you're trying to use illigitimate studies to support your beliefs. SO far you have no evidence, all you have is "the tv said so."

1)What are you talking about? You were just arguing that people are born gay, therefore it nature and biology?

It's nature.

2) Again, because he said so doesn't mean anything, infact he doesn't seem to know anything about it. I bet he doesn't even have expertise in rat behavior, so his testamony is worthless without credentials.

Yeah, whatever. Are you an expert in rat behavior? Then how do you know that this guy doesn't have an understanding of rat behavior?

3) You need help with your comprehension skills. But I'll clerify, sexuality isn't a choice, but deviating from it is. Example...we are all born straight (sexuality), but we can only deviate from it because of perversion, abuse, porn..ect.

Well, sorry if I misquoted you, but I think that modern science contradicts that. I'm not going to go into a bunch of scientific reasons because I'm not a biologist.

4)Actually you're trying to use illigitimate studies to support your beliefs. SO far you have no evidence, all you have is "the tv said so."

Well, first of all, you're claiming a scientific study "illegitimate" before you know all the facts. I'm only quoting what I remember from a TV segment yesterday; I'm no expert on this research. Secondly, I may not be any expert in biology (never claimed to be), but do you have evidence to back your claims?
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

60 Minutes is not the last word on the subject...

Who tempted Cain to murder? Or, was it Cain's genes that made him murder? Who tempted the woman to fall? Or, was it her genes that made her give the fruit to Adam? And, Adam's genes and hormones that made him to eat?

We are leaving an issue out of this that is vitally important. Do not demons influence certain individuals? Do they not sense certain make ups of a child and know they can manipulate them? I am not saying this is demon possession. I speak of spiritual manipulation. After all, before we were saved we were vulnerable to being tempted because of our particular genetic makeup, but it did not mean we would give in to the temptation. Some people are tempted to cheat on tests. Some are tempted to make fun of others. There are a wide variety of demeanors man is born into. Could it be that demons recruit certain types for certain obsessions?

After all? Why were believers set free from their old way of life while under the teaching of Paul?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version)
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
​

These folks did not change genetically. They changed by what effected them spiritually!


Is it not possible that certain behaviors of men are actually under the influence of spiritual powers that exploit traits demons know they can exploit? That would never come into consideration on such shows as 60 Minutes.

Why is this not considered by more Christians? If God condemns a certain behavior under the Law, as to demand execution? If it were genetical in nature? Would that not be an unfair law?

Like saying, if anyone stutters he is to be put to death? Or, if anyone is deaf, he is to be executed? Those would be unfair laws, for it did not involve choice.

Yet the choice may not for the desire so much, but to put fear in the heart of the one being tempted as to resist demon influence attempting to gain control over the thinking of the person. It was God's way of having a person reject a demonic influence by threatening the death penalty for certain types of behavior.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 (New International Version)
"Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
​

Demons take pleasure is having control over men. What better way to know one has real control? Then to get a man to do something they do not want to do in the light of knowing social norms established by God? Now, that's power if they can do it.

In Christ, GeneZ

60 Minutes is not the last word on the subject...

Of course not. I'm simply adding to the discussion something I saw on TV. I thought I'd see what everyone thought about it. I never intended for 60 Minutes to be the infallible source of the science of sexuality.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

I know that verse. And actually, I think that 'homosexual offender' is a bad translation, considering that the word 'homosexual' didn't come into use until the 19th Century. But that's a subject for another thread.

I don't know about demon possession but I tend to think - and I may get in trouble for saying this, as it may be interpreted as an insult to your beliefs (and I don't mean it that way) - that citing "demon possession" or "demon influence" is junk science. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs. I'm saying that that's more faith-based kind of stuff than hard science.

But I (think) I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate your comments.
Ringo

 

[GenemZ]

Well, first of all, you're claiming a scientific study "illegitimate" before you know all the facts. I'm only quoting what I remember from a TV segment yesterday; I'm no expert on this research. Secondly, I may not be any expert in biology (never claimed to be), but do you have evidence to back your claims?
Ringo

Animals can be trained for redirecting their sexual urges. That is why under the Law, both the person committing bestiality, and the animal involved, were to be put to death. The animal was innocent but had taken on a learned behavior that had become unacceptable.

Leviticus 20:15 niv
" 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal."
​

Yes, animals can learn sexual perversions, if taught and trained to.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Ringo84]

Animals can be trained for redirecting their sexual urges. That is why under the Law, both the person committing bestiality, and the animal involved, were to be put to death. The animal was innocent but had taken on a learned behavior that had become unacceptable.

Leviticus 20:15 niv
" 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal."
​

Yes, animals can learn sexual perversions, if taught and trained to.

In Christ, GeneZ

No, I think that the animal in question (the rat) was injected with hormones that made it act differently. There was no choice about it.
Ringo

 

[ReformedChapin]

It's nature.

1) There is no proof for it. Even my nutcase liberal professors try to say that is a combination of nature and nurture

Yeah, whatever. Are you an expert in rat behavior? Then how do you know that this guy doesn't have an understanding of rat behavior?

Logic, how can you know a rat acts behaves like a female? LOL. Even in human studies sociologist have a hard time categorizing behavior.

Well, sorry if I misquoted you, but I think that modern science contradicts that. I'm not going to go into a bunch of scientific reasons because I'm not a biologist.

If they could prove homosexuality was genetic, they would have done it already, they tried and failed.

Well, first of all, you're claiming a scientific study "illegitimate" before you know all the facts. I'm only quoting what I remember from a TV segment yesterday; I'm no expert on this research. Secondly, I may not be any expert in biology (never claimed to be), but do you have evidence to back your claims?
Ringo

Because tv labels something doesn't mean it is. Yes I do, it's just kind of hard to scan my sociology book on here to prove all the studies I have from class. Infact sociologists (except for sociobiologist) state that behavior is taught by culture. Sociobilogist say that all behavior is based on evolutionary theory so that both males and females increase their chances for reporduction. In either case, there is no point in homosexuality being "natural" or that people are born that way.

 

[Ringo84]

1) There is no proof for it. Even my nutcase liberal professors try to say that is a combination of nature and nurture



Logic, how can you know a rat acts behaves like a female? LOL. Even in human studies sociologist have a hard time categorizing behavior.




If they could prove homosexuality was genetic, they would have done it already, they tried and failed.



Because tv labels something doesn't mean it is. Yes I do, it's just kind of hard to scan my sociology book on here to prove all the studies I have from class. Infact sociologists (except for sociobiologist) state that behavior is taught by culture. Sociobilogist say that all behavior is based on evolutionary theory so that both males and females increase their chances for reporduction. In either case, there is no point in homosexuality being "natural" or that people are born that way.

1) There is no proof for it. Even my nutcase liberal professors try to say that is a combination of nature and nurture

Notice the bias in that sentence - "nutcase liberal professors". It's not nurture. Haven't they disproven the "protective mother and absent father" theory yet?

Logic, how can you know a rat acts behaves like a female? LOL. Even in human studies sociologist have a hard time categorizing behavior.

How do you know it doesn't? Do you have a degree in zoology?

If they could prove homosexuality was genetic, they would have done it already, they tried and failed.

OK. This scientist claimed it was hormonal.

Because tv labels something doesn't mean it is.

I never said that.

Infact sociologists (except for sociobiologist) state that behavior is taught by culture.

True. I agree with that. Just not in terms of sexuality.

In either case, there is no point in homosexuality being "natural" or that people are born that way.

Did you "choose" to be straight? When? I know I didn't.
Ringo

 

[crazymichael]

Werent the twins on 60 minutes only 6 years old? How in the heck can you tell me that a 6-year old knows anything about sexuality? From what I have heard, one of the twins was effeminate and the other was not. What does that have to do with him being gay? Especially that young. The only difference between this boy and other boys is that most parents would discourage his behavior because of social norms and gender roles. All children are different, but they are taught at a very young age how to act like boys or girls.
All the demon talk is confusing me, lol.

Even if being gay/lesbian is not genetic, that doesnt mean that it was a simple choice like some make it out to be.

 

[GenemZ]

Animals can be trained for redirecting their sexual urges. That is why under the Law, both the person committing bestiality, and the animal involved, were to be put to death. The animal was innocent but had taken on a learned behavior that had become unacceptable.

Leviticus 20:15 niv​

" 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal."​

Yes, animals can learn sexual perversions, if taught and trained to.

In Christ, GeneZ

No, I think that the animal in question (the rat) was injected with hormones that made it act differently. There was no choice about it.
Ringo

If you were injected with female hormones you would not start desiring men.

You would simply not be able to experience the power of the physical drives of the male when in the presence of women.

Little boys are attracted to little girls long before they are sexually developed. Lacking lots of testosterone does not make one unattracted to the female of the species. It only indicates how agressive you might be in your response.

A gay weight lifter who uses lots of male hormones for body building does not find himself attracted to women.

God created man, male and female.... before this soul was given a body with hormones (Genesis 1:27).

The male soul God created was later on breathed into a body God had formed (not created) out from the elements of the earth (Genesis 2:7).

Its the SOUL that was created male and female. The body was a separate part of the creation. There are weak males who are not attracted to the same sex. They do not have lots of testosterone.

Hormones is not the issue. Hormones are only the fuel needed for the male soul to respond bodily. And, visa versa.

Again.... a gay body builder who takes lots of testosterone, does not find himself suddenly attracted to females. He simply becomes a more aggressive homosexual.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Even if being gay/lesbian is not genetic, that doesnt mean that it was a simple choice like some make it out to be.

Genesis 6:1-2​

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, ​

that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and took to themselves women of all whom they have chosen."​

Angels were originally created as males. They were created without a female counterpart.

Yet... They had capacity for sexual desire.

They were created like Adam was first created, alone as a male.

Now? The fallen angels? Who receive no grace from God to control their lusts?

What were they to do with their desires which were aroused to a fever pitch when God introduced beautiful women to the human race?

Some angels rebelled and took woman in great lust.

But? For the fallen angels?

What could they do? They wanted a female, but could not have one.

They created their own substitute for the opposite sex.

The first drag queens were not humans.

Goddesses are claimed to exist, but God created angels as only males.

Vines Expository Dictionary​

1angelos ​

"a messenger" (from angello, "to deliver a message"), sent whether by God or by man or by Satan, "is also used of a guardian or representative in Re. 1:20, cp. Mt. 18:10; Ac. 12:15 (where it is better understood as = 'ghost'), superior to man, Heb. 2:7; Ps. . 8:5, belonging to Heaven, Mt. 24:36; Mr. 12:25, and to God, Lu. 12:8, and engaged in His service, Ps. . 103:20. "Angels" are spirits, Heb. 1:14, i.e., they have not material bodies as men have; they are either human in form, or can assume the human form when necessary, cp. Lu. 24:4, with Lu. 24:23, Ac. 10:3 with Ac. 10:30. "They are called 'holy' in Mr. 8:38, and 'elect,' 1Ti. 5:21, in contrast with some of their original number, Mt. 25:41, who 'sinned,' 2Pe. 2:4, 'left their proper habitation,' Jude. 1:6, oiketerion, a word which occurs again, in the NT, only in 2Co. 5:2. Angels are always spoken of in the masculine gender, the feminine form of the word does not occur."* [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 229.] Note: Isangelos, "equal to the angels," occurs in Lu. 20:36."​

I will let some here think this over and see if they will conclude what I did when this was shown to me.

2 Timothy 2:7 niv
Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this."
​

Grace and peace, GeneZ​

 

[belladonic-haze]

You're expressing romanticism not the God of the bible. If the bible is wrong, why bother being a christain in the first place?

I am a Christian because of Jesus......God is honored in many ways. You do not have to be a Christian for that.....Jews pray to God and that is the same God as we Christians have....Muslims pray to God. Our Lord is not just honored through Christianity. Christianity is about Jesus as well.....

Oh well, my two cents on that.

BTW because you love them that doesn't mean you let anyone do whatever they want.

Who what uh?

 

[belladonic-haze]

I've been scrolling through the posts here. The one is even more judgmental then the other. How Christian of us.......

But I am bisexual, and I have Christian gay friends who are lovely and sweet and care for each other and the world. I see people who are in love with their partner who is of the same gender. And yes, they are 'married' just not officially because some frustrated heterosexual homophobic government tells people that they can't marry the one they love.

It is like talking to a brick wall or to deafman's ears.....

And because I think that gay people are gay because that is what they are and they are born that way thus made by God that way. And God loves loving people, warm loving people so to be honest - in the words of Clark Gable in 'gone with the wind' I will tell you what I think about that verses slapping homophobic behavior:

Frankly, darling - I don't give a damn.

So and now you can bible slap me some more......

 

[SallyNow]

I don't know why some people are gay and some are straight. The reasons are probably quite complicated. Perhaps it has something to do with hormones during pregancy. Perhaps it has something to do with how the brain is structured. We don't really know yet. But we do know that everyone deserves to be treated with diginity and basic human respect. We do know we should love others, not hate them. We do know that whether someone is gay or straight, it is what they do on an everyday basis, how they interact with others, how charitable, how kind, how thoughful they are, that really matters.

The sociological aspects of how homosexuals are distrubuted in the world, the patterns that emerge, the constancies and inconstistancies, are all amazing. I would love a chance to study the raw data on this subject!

Link:
60 Minutes Report

 

[belladonic-haze]

Hey SallyNow....Thanks for the 60 minutes link. That was quite interesting..... The environment of the womb. Odd, though, because identical twins live in the same environment in the womb as well. With unidentical twins there could be a difference...but yes, I truly believe we are the sum of genes and more!

Good link!

 

[Mling]

deleated, because I was responding to a post made 3 pages back, without realizing.

 

[Mling]

The environment of the womb. Odd, though, because identical twins live in the same environment in the womb as well.

Ahh, not quite. Hormone levels can be affected by stress, which can be different for each fetus. If one is lounging out and the other is squished around it, if one has a kink in the umbilical cord...there are plenty of things that can affect the gestational experience of one twin and not the other.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I've been scrolling through the posts here. The one is even more judgmental then the other. How Christian of us.......

But I am bisexual, and I have Christian gay friends who are lovely and sweet and care for each other and the world. I see people who are in love with their partner who is of the same gender. And yes, they are 'married' just not officially because some frustrated heterosexual homophobic government tells people that they can't marry the one they love.

It is like talking to a brick wall or to deafman's ears.....

And because I think that gay people are gay because that is what they are and they are born that way thus made by God that way. And God loves loving people, warm loving people so to be honest - in the words of Clark Gable in 'gone with the wind' I will tell you what I think about that verses slapping homophobic behavior:

Frankly, darling - I don't give a damn.

So and now you can bible slap me some more......

No one is going to force anything onto you, we're just letting you know the facts about science and bible. You don't want to hear it, no one is going to force you. Ultimately we arell suffer the consequences for our sinful behavior.

like I said a million times before, God isn't god of romanticism, but the God of many aspects including that which he designed his creation.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Notice the bias in that sentence - "nutcase liberal professors". It's not nurture. Haven't they disproven the "protective mother and absent father" theory yet?

We are all biased?? Tell me one person that isn't. And yes I go to a nutcase liberal college..yay me.

How do you know it doesn't? Do you have a degree in zoology?

Common sense? There's effiniate men that are straight? Just because they are act like women doesn't mean they are gay.

OK. This scientist claimed it was hormonal.

Lots of scientist make mistakes. Reaseachers make corralations all the time that aren't even related. There is no real evidence saying that homosexuality is genetic or "natural."

I never said that.



True. I agree with that. Just not in terms of sexuality.



Did you "choose" to be straight? When? I know I didn't.
Ringo

Again, for the millionth time, God's design is for you to be straight. He ment that for you, people who deviate that make a choice (whether conscience or unscience) to go against God's design....try to think of it as rebellion. I can't dumb it down anymore than that.


There is no such thing as sexual orientation just sexual "preference"...biblically is more like sexual perversion.

Again another form of sexual perversion is people who are attracted to animals, I'm assuming that homosexuality is in some ways is the same. Yes I know I'm going to make people angry, but since all of you keep insiting that "God made you that way" I guess God made these other people want to have sex with animals as well.

 

[UnderHisWings4Ever]

God made us without sin, but Adam CHOSE to sin, and since then sin has been in our nature. Homosexuality, hate, murder, rape, and every abhorrable act is in our nature. Again, that is precisely why we NEED Christ. If we are going to act according to our nature, then why exactly do we need Christ's sacrifice? We need it to CHANGE our nature. And that new nature has no room for sexual perversion of any kind, homosexuality included.

 

[relspace]

It certainly isn't the reason most people get married, now or in the past, and it certainly isn't biblical.

On the contrary, in the past marriage was almost exclusively for procreation. Even in Roman and Greek culture where homosexuality was accepted. The homosexual relationship was for love and the marriage was only for procreation. In fact with all the fooling around, the real purpose for marriage was to designate which children would be heirs.

Then you should ban all hetrosexual marriages that aren't for the express purpose of procreation.

But that is not the current issue is it. The current issue is whether to finally completely change the meaning of marriage by allowing homosexual marriage.

Even if a couple is supposedly incapable of having children, miracles are known to happen and the marriage is an agreement to share in the responsibility if such a thing should happen. Adoption is not quite the same thing for even a single parent can adopt a child.

Frankly I think that any group of people should have the right to call themselves a family and get legal recognition of such. For being a family goes way beyond the purpose and meaning of marriage. Whether it is two sisters or a gentleman and his butler, the comitment and feeling of family should be something that everyone should have a right to get legally recognized.