Why are there religious people?

FireDragon76 · May 17, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
htt
Is this woman in denial then? She seems keenly aware of all the implications of her abortion...yet, not at all unhappy she terminated her pregnancy.

It's the termination of a human life. Anyone with a heart would have to find it saddening, even if they felt they had no choice. The suffering it causes, if not apparent, is a deadening of ones feelings in general. It's not natural for a mother to want to abort a child, it's natural to reproduce and to love ones child. So in an abortion, the capacity to love freely suffers.

TheBarrd · May 17, 2015

TillICollapse said:
It was a very straightforward question: do you actually want them to feel guilty ? Most of your response here doesn't directly address my question. The only part that comes close is the "What I personally desire is that there be no reason for them to feel guilt at all ..." but that is a sidestep to answering the question.

Let's say you have a woman who gets an abortion, but feels or experiences no guilt. Do you want this woman to feel and experience guilt ? Or will you be pleased that they do not feel or experience guilt ?

First of all, if she's not having any problems, there would be no reason for her to come to me for counseling. As it is, however, we have more girls than we can handle, and we have ladies putting in overtime. Unfortunately, our overflow winds up in the mental health facility, being put on "psych meds".

But that isn't the answer you want, is it? I don't like it that these women suffer so much, you're right. I do wish that there were some way for them not to have to go through so much pain.
But a woman who could do such a thing, with no guilt at all...what kind of a woman would she be?
The only answer I have for that is this:
A woman so callous, so cold, and so selfish as to be able to do such a thing and walk away smiling is not someone I would trust, or someone I would consider safe around my children.
She would need one heck of a lot more help than any counseling I could offer.
She would need God...

TheBarrd · May 17, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
It's the termination of a human life. Anyone with a heart would have to find it saddening, even if they felt they had no choice. The suffering it causes, if not apparent, is a deadening of ones feelings in general. It's not natural for a mother to want to abort a child, it's natural to reproduce and to love ones child. So in an abortion, the capacity to love freely suffers.

/\/\/\
This.
I'd give you an amen and a thumbs up...but we don't have those smilies any more.
Can we still give reps? Cuz, you sure deserve 'em for this!

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
It's the termination of a human life. Anyone with a heart would have to find it saddening, even if they felt they had no choice. The suffering it causes, if not apparent, is a deadening of ones feelings in general. It's not natural for a mother to want to abort a child, it's natural to reproduce and to love ones child. So in an abortion, the capacity to love freely suffers.

So she's heartless now? Her feelings are deadening?

TheBarrd · May 17, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
I've known women who have...so your incredulity is unnecessary. I can assure you though, from personal experience, that the guilt heaped upon women who aren't ready to be mothers by christians is enormous. You'd probably be surprised how little guilt/shame/embarrassment they feel once they genuinely stop caring about what people like you think of them.

Or maybe it's natural to feel bad about killing your child.
What surprises me is people who seriously think that life is a throw away commodity...

What is the difference between the woman in your story and the woman who drowns her new baby in the bathtub?

Eyes wide Open · May 17, 2015

Pro choice is not about about pushing a women towards abortion, is about supporting her to make the right choice about what she does with her body. If she is not supported fully and influenced to have an abortion then that is not pro choice, that's influencing a women to have an abortion, likewise picketing abortion clinics etc is not supporting the women either. Most people are polarised one way or the other without having a true neutrality (as best one can) around a pregnant women enabling her to make the best choice. Clearly some women are fine with abortion, others not so, but of course we don't have a full understanding of what made them make their choices. Emotive conversation does nothing for the issue of unwanted pregnancy.

TillICollapse · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
First of all, if she's not having any problems, there would be no reason for her to come to me for counseling. As it is, however, we have more girls than we can handle, and we have ladies putting in overtime. Unfortunately, our overflow winds up in the mental health facility, being put on "psych meds".

But that isn't the answer you want, is it? I don't like it that these women suffer so much, you're right. I do wish that there were some way for them not to have to go through so much pain.
But a woman who could do such a thing, with no guilt at all...what kind of a woman would she be?
The only answer I have for that is this:
A woman so callous, so cold, and so selfish as to be able to do such a thing and walk away smiling is not someone I would trust, or someone I would consider safe around my children.
She would need one heck of a lot more help than any counseling I could offer.
She would need God...

One more question: a woman has had an abortion, but experiences a tremendous amount of guilt, she comes to you for help. Do you eventually hope to help her overcome her guilt ? What is the goal of what you are trying to accomplish in helping such a person ?

Eyes wide Open · May 17, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
It's the termination of a human life. Anyone with a heart would have to find it saddening, even if they felt they had no choice. The suffering it causes, if not apparent, is a deadening of ones feelings in general. It's not natural for a mother to want to abort a child, it's natural to reproduce and to love ones child. So in an abortion, the capacity to love freely suffers.

When I first came to CF the counter argument to the termination of a human life being saddening was, ‘why is not the termination of all life not saddening’, why is it you put humans on a pedestal? I understand that we gauge our own species important, but why that much more important once our survival needs are met?

TheBarrd · May 17, 2015

TillICollapse said:
One more question: a woman has had an abortion, but experiences a tremendous amount of guilt, she comes to you for help. Do you eventually hope to help her overcome her guilt ? What is the goal of what you are trying to accomplish in helping such a person ?

Of course, we try to help her to overcome her guilt. We are not monsters. We try to help her to forgive herself, and learn to love herself again. Of course, most of the women who volunteer are Christians, so what we do is to try to teach them about the great love and forgiveness of God.
While nothing we can do can change what has happened, the goal is that she might come to terms with it, and go on with her life. If she doesn't want kids, we can put her with a doctor who will tie her tubes for her. If she does want them, but 'not right now', we can help her to learn about new methods of birth control, or we can counsel her about abstinence.
We want her to have a healthy, balanced life, of course.

TillICollapse · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Of course, we try to help her to overcome her guilt. We are not monsters. We try to help her to forgive herself, and learn to love herself again. Of course, most of the women who volunteer are Christians, so what we do is to try to teach them about the great love and forgiveness of God.
While nothing we can do can change what has happened, the goal is that she might come to terms with it, and go on with her life. If she doesn't want kids, we can put her with a doctor who will tie her tubes for her. If she does want them, but 'not right now', we can help her to learn about new methods of birth control, or we can counsel her about abstinence.
We want her to have a healthy, balanced life, of course.

What I see in your responses, is that you never answered my question ... but instead evil-ized a person who may not feel guilt after getting an abortion. IOW, instead of answering, you took the object of the focus and judged them as cold/selfish/someone you wouldn't think was safe around your own children, etc. You also questioned whether or not I was viewing you as a monster when I initially asked, and then repeated the link to the idea of you being a "monster" based on the way you may handle such a situation.

But then on the flip side, you said you would try to help someone in such a situation overcome their guilt. So on the one hand, someone who gets an abortion and does not have guilt ... is questionable as to "what type of woman are they ?". But on the other hand, you say you would desire to help someone overcome such a guilt if they had it.

It seems almost like a Munchausen's by proxy type of thing. Someone who doesn't feel guilt is viewed as essentially "wrong". First, someone SHOULD feel guilt so then they can be fixed and treated.

It's often said that many believers hold to concepts that try to show people as being broken and in need of help and fixing, when it's their own concepts which create a problem which only their concepts can "fix" in the first place. In no way am I saying that believers are the only cause that create the guilt or issues a woman may experience from considering or having an abortion ... I'm not saying that ... however it's interesting that those who already respond in such a situation without the shame and guilt/etc may be viewed as "problems". It gives credence to the idea that those who are vulnerable and experience shame/guilt/fear/etc may instead be exploited by the very people who are claiming they are "trying to help".

Thank you for answering my questions.

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Or maybe it's natural to feel bad about killing your child.
What surprises me is people who seriously think that life is a throw away commodity...

What is the difference between the woman in your story and the woman who drowns her new baby in the bathtub?

Consciousness

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Or maybe it's natural to feel bad about killing your child.
What surprises me is people who seriously think that life is a throw away commodity...

What is the difference between the woman in your story and the woman who drowns her new baby in the bathtub?

Since you mentioned it earlier...

You said "thou shalt not kill" was the bible's stance on abortion. Do you feel the same way about war? Self-defense? The death penalty?

TheBarrd · May 17, 2015

TillICollapse said:
What I see in your responses, is that you never answered my question ... but instead evil-ized a person who may not feel guilt after getting an abortion. IOW, instead of answering, you took the object of the focus and judged them as cold/selfish/someone you wouldn't think was safe around your own children, etc. You also questioned whether or not I was viewing you as a monster when I initially asked, and then repeated the link to the idea of you being a "monster" based on the way you may handle such a situation.

But then on the flip side, you said you would try to help someone in such a situation overcome their guilt. So on the one hand, someone who gets an abortion and does not have guilt ... is questionable as to "what type of woman are they ?". But on the other hand, you say you would desire to help someone overcome such a guilt if they had it.

It seems almost like a Munchausen's by proxy type of thing. Someone who doesn't feel guilt is viewed as essentially "wrong". First, someone SHOULD feel guilt so then they can be fixed and treated.

It's often said that many believers hold to concepts that try to show people as being broken and in need of help and fixing, when it's their own concepts which create a problem which only their concepts can "fix" in the first place. In no way am I saying that believers are the only cause that create the guilt or issues a woman may experience from considering or having an abortion ... I'm not saying that ... however it's interesting that those who already respond in such a situation without the shame and guilt/etc may be viewed as "problems". It gives credence to the idea that those who are vulnerable and experience shame/guilt/fear/etc may instead be exploited by the very people who are claiming they are "trying to help".

Thank you for answering my questions.

.
And thank you for answering mine.

I have often wondered...there ought to be an answer...some way of assuring that people do not reproduce until they are read and willing to raise children. Some way to just "turn it off" until the person is ready.

Then again, maybe the guy who could have figured it out is laying in a dumpster somewhere behind some abortion mill...

Ahh, well...we'll never know, will we?

TheBarrd · May 17, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Since you mentioned it earlier...

You said "thou shalt not kill" was the bible's stance on abortion. Do you feel the same way about war? Self-defense? The death penalty?

Actually, yes, I do.
Does that surprise you?

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
.
And thank you for answering mine.

I have often wondered...there ought to be an answer...some way of assuring that people do not reproduce until they are read and willing to raise children. Some way to just "turn it off" until the person is ready.

Then again, maybe the guy who could have figured it out is laying in a dumpster somewhere behind some abortion mill...

Ahh, well...we'll never know, will we?

Of course, maybe the guy who would've figured it out was killed by a guy who would've been aborted had christians not heaped guilt upon his 16yo mother...

It's fun to imagine, isn't it?

Ana the Ist · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Actually, yes, I do.
Does that surprise you?

A bit...most christians flip flop around on these things.

So to sum up your position, no person should ever be killed for any reason at all?

Archaeopteryx · May 17, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Hundreds of millions of people disagree.

Hundreds of millions of people disagree about what the answer is too, yet many are absolutely certain they've found it in their religion and that all others are deceived.

Archaeopteryx · May 17, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I happen to be a liberal Christian (at least by the standards of this forum, in RL I am probably just moderate), which means I think those differences are largely unimportant. Most mainline Protestants and Catholics would also agree. Faith in God takes many forms, that doesn't mean that faith is fundamentally in contradiction.

Pope Benedict XVI had it right, it's a terrible thing to have a question mark at the center of your life. Faith is grounding in a way that unbelief cannot be.

So because it is terrible to have to live with uncertainty and ignorance, it is better to pretend to know the answer?

TillICollapse · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
.
And thank you for answering mine.

I have often wondered...there ought to be an answer...some way of assuring that people do not reproduce until they are read and willing to raise children. Some way to just "turn it off" until the person is ready.

Contraception is perhaps an obvious method which already exists, although it's obviously not without side effects.

Archaeopteryx · May 17, 2015

TheBarrd said:
Too many pro choice nuts seem to think women actually want to have abortions. They think it is "a simple procedure, like having a wart removed". They imagine the cool, sophisticated, woman-about-town, sauntering in, having her procedure, and walking out, with no more concern than if she'd just had a manicure.

What? No, they don't. This is a caricature.

I assure you, that just is not true.

When have I ever said that it is true?

Most of those women are scared down to their toenails. They no more want to have the abortion than they want to go swimming in a shark infested pool.
You are NOT "empowering women". If you are "pro choice", you are doing far more harm than you could possibly realize. It's not the nasty Christians who are giving these poor women guilt complexes. It is the fact that they are consenting to the death of their baby. You can call it a "clump of cells" all you like...the pregnant woman knows that that "clump of cells" is her baby.
And how does one murder their own child, even if it is legal...without guilt?

You call it "murder" and then pretend that you don't think these women should feel guilt? I think you want them to feel guilt and shame.

Why are there religious people?

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