Why are there religious people?

[Archaeopteryx]

I suppose I've spent too much time trying to clean up the mess left behind by the "pro choice" nuts.
Yes, I'm angry. Every time I think of another young woman, duped into thinking that "it isn't really a baby", when in her heart she knows better, I get angry all over again. After its all over, and the truth slaps her in her face, all of you kind, helpful people who just wanted to "help her put this all behind her" will have vanished into the mist...and she will wind up sitting with someone like me...if she is lucky.
I dare not post a graphic picture of what is actually left after the abortionist has finished, but, if you have the guts for it, I challenge you to look for yourself.
There are some lovely shots for the family album here:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...n&tbm=isch&q=abortion+babies&revid=1311584372
Oh, don't miss that happy gentleman about halfway down the page. What is he shoveling into that fire????

None of this is relevant to the discussion at hand. You're being evasive.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If you support abortion, then I definitely do NOT owe you an apology. I don't owe you anything at all.
As for the "relevant points", there is very little point in continuing any debate with you.
Since it is so very important to you, you may have it your own way.

The fact that you have diverted the discussion onto abortion and same-sex marriage, topics that have no bearing on whether faith is required to lack belief in Greebles on Pluto, suggests to me that you have nothing more of significance to contribute.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I suppose I've spent too much time trying to clean up the mess left behind by the "pro choice" nuts.
Yes, I'm angry. Every time I think of another young woman, duped into thinking that "it isn't really a baby", when in her heart she knows better, I get angry all over again. After its all over, and the truth slaps her in her face, all of you kind, helpful people who just wanted to "help her put this all behind her" will have vanished into the mist...and she will wind up sitting with someone like me...if she is lucky.
I dare not post a graphic picture of what is actually left after the abortionist has finished, but, if you have the guts for it, I challenge you to look for yourself.
There are some lovely shots for the family album here:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...n&tbm=isch&q=abortion+babies&revid=1311584372
Oh, don't miss that happy gentleman about halfway down the page. What is he shoveling into that fire????

Lol why would she be lucky to find herself with you?

If she feels ashamed...where do you think that came from? Personal guilt? Or perhaps a segment of society shaming her?

If she's lucky... she ignores you entirely.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well, if you mean I'm not all for it, you're right.
I was, a few years ago. Then I saw a made for kids movie all about families that featured families with two moms or two dads, teaching little children that this is "normal".
No, it is not "normal". I think we all know that "normal" sex involves two genders...male and female. Now, if you prefer your own gender, that's fine...I have no objections as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I might think you're all weird, but it isn't up to me to choose for other people. Do whatever you want to do, marry whoever you want to marry, I could care less.

BUT KEEP IT AWAY FROM THE KIDS!!

Children are regularly exposed to examples of heterosexual romance; whether it's a couple holding hands in the park, or celebrating their wedding on television. By contrast, they see barely any examples of homosexual relationships. Such relationships exist. Pretending that they don't exist won't make them go away. Pretending that there aren't any families with gay parents won't make such families disappear. It's not up to gay couples to hide the existence of their relationship from society just because some people are bigots. Your children will encounter gay people living normal lives, marrying, raising children, and so on. Deal with it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok, thanks.

You said, "Ok, thanks."

LOL

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God can be known to exist in the same way love is known to exist. Neither one is observable empirically.

That's just silly. Anything can be claimed to be "known to exist" or "known not to exist" in this way, even God's non-existence.

 

[bhsmte]

You said, "Ok, thanks."

LOL

What can I say? No appetite to dig deeper into that one.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What can I say? No appetite to dig deeper into that one.

I was really hoping she'd say something like ancestry. com....traced my ancestors all the way back to Mars

 

[TheBarrd]

Lol why would she be lucky to find herself with you?

If she feels ashamed...where do you think that came from? Personal guilt? Or perhaps a segment of society shaming her?

If she's lucky... she ignores you entirely.

I have been a volunteer at an abortion alternative center for over 20 years, first in Phoenix, Arizona, and then later, here in Alabama. In case you didn't know, an abortion alternative center is a place that provides help for women in crisis pregnancy.
For some reason, pro choice nuts seem to think that these women actually want to have abortions. Most of the time, that is just not true. The problem is that she has no support system. Too many times, other people are making her "choice" for her...the boyfriend, his family, or worse, her family...she feels alone and frightened, and as if abortion is her only alternative. What we do is try to be her support system. We put her in touch with the resources available to her, such as low income housing, work at home employment, baby clothes, furniture and other equipment, and any other help we can dredge up. I've taken several of these women into my own home, because they had no other place to go...their families had kicked them out.
But we don't catch them all in time, obviously. Too many times, after it is all over, a woman finds herself quite alone. All those friendly, helpful people who were so willing to "help her through this difficult time" seem to have melted away, and friends and family have grown distant. She had been told that "it isn't really a baby", but her heart knew better. She tried to convince herself that it was "just a clump of cells" and that the abortion would be "just like getting a wart removed"...but now that it's over, the truth slaps her in the face. We see them all the time, looking for someone to talk to...they come to the center. And we have counselors who can help them.
No, we don't push guilt on them. They come to us with it. What we do is to lead them to the love and the forgiveness of God...or, if they are not Christian, we help them to learn to love and forgive themselves.
I just wish that some of these idiots that spout off about "a woman's right to choose" had to sit and listen to some of the horror stories I've heard. Like the young woman who was put under "twilight sleep" for her "procedure"....she had a moment, she remembers, where she looked down, and saw her baby's severed head, floating around in a pail of blood. She can't forget it, nearly a decade later...and she's never gotten pregnant again.
You think you are "empowering women" with this nonsense, but you really aren't. If you really want to empower women, maybe you ought to support teaching them that their sexuality is something precious...too precious to waste for a half hour's fumbling in the back seat of their teenage date's car... Give women the power of self respect.
Now there's a thought...

It just seems to me that before you go yelling about "a woman's right to choose" it might not be a bad idea to learn a little something about the women who are "choosing".

 

[TheBarrd]

Children are regularly exposed to examples of heterosexual romance; whether it's a couple holding hands in the park, or celebrating their wedding on television. By contrast, they see barely any examples of homosexual relationships. Such relationships exist. Pretending that they don't exist won't make them go away. Pretending that there aren't any families with gay parents won't make such families disappear. It's not up to gay couples to hide the existence of their relationship from society just because some people are bigots. Your children will encounter gay people living normal lives, marrying, raising children, and so on. Deal with it.

Most of my family lives in Southern Alabama. Most of the folks in the small town I live in would be, according to you, "bigots". (they think I'm "liberal")
Now, I don't know if it's because they don't like the neighborhood, or because they're staying in the closet...but there just don't seem to be too many examples of gay people living normal lives, marrying, raising children, and so on.
Come to think of it, the only ones I know live in nearby Florida, and the kids think they are "weird".
They were raising a little girl, but her real Dad, who married a woman, sued for custody and the court decided in his favor. From what I hear, she is much happier with a Dad and a Mom...and a puppy...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Most of my family lives in Southern Alabama. Most of the folks in the small town I live in would be, according to you, "bigots". (they think I'm "liberal")
Now, I don't know if it's because they don't like the neighborhood, or because they're staying in the closet...but there just don't seem to be too many examples of gay people living normal lives, marrying, raising children, and so on.
Come to think of it, the only ones I know live in nearby Florida, and the kids think they are "weird".
They were raising a little girl, but her real Dad, who married a woman, sued for custody and the court decided in his favor. From what I hear, she is much happier with a Dad and a Mom...and a puppy...

You know of no gay people living normal lives, marrying, raising children, etc., so such people obviously don't exist. Your personal experience reigns supreme; we must all defer to your experience.

I'm still waiting for you to return to the discussion at hand. This little diversion of yours hasn't made people forget.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I have been a volunteer at an abortion alternative center for over 20 years, first in Phoenix, Arizona, and then later, here in Alabama. In case you didn't know, an abortion alternative center is a place that provides help for women in crisis pregnancy.
For some reason, pro choice nuts seem to think that these women actually want to have abortions. Most of the time, that is just not true. The problem is that she has no support system. Too many times, other people are making her "choice" for her...the boyfriend, his family, or worse, her family...she feels alone and frightened, and as if abortion is her only alternative. What we do is try to be her support system. We put her in touch with the resources available to her, such as low income housing, work at home employment, baby clothes, furniture and other equipment, and any other help we can dredge up. I've taken several of these women into my own home, because they had no other place to go...their families had kicked them out.
But we don't catch them all in time, obviously. Too many times, after it is all over, a woman finds herself quite alone. All those friendly, helpful people who were so willing to "help her through this difficult time" seem to have melted away, and friends and family have grown distant. She had been told that "it isn't really a baby", but her heart knew better. She tried to convince herself that it was "just a clump of cells" and that the abortion would be "just like getting a wart removed"...but now that it's over, the truth slaps her in the face. We see them all the time, looking for someone to talk to...they come to the center. And we have counselors who can help them.
No, we don't push guilt on them. They come to us with it. What we do is to lead them to the love and the forgiveness of God...or, if they are not Christian, we help them to learn to love and forgive themselves.

No, you don't push any guilt. You just call it "murder," but no, no guilt. How absurd. Your entire position is one based on guilt.

I just wish that some of these idiots that spout off about "a woman's right to choose" had to sit and listen to some of the horror stories I've heard. Like the young woman who was put under "twilight sleep" for her "procedure"....she had a moment, she remembers, where she looked down, and saw her baby's severed head, floating around in a pail of blood. She can't forget it, nearly a decade later...and she's never gotten pregnant again.
You think you are "empowering women" with this nonsense, but you really aren't. If you really want to empower women, maybe you ought to support teaching them that their sexuality is something precious...too precious to waste for a half hour's fumbling in the back seat of their teenage date's car... Give women the power of self respect.
Now there's a thought...

Women can have self-respect and still enjoy sex.

 

[TheBarrd]

You know of no gay people living normal lives, marrying, raising children, etc., so such people obviously don't exist. Your personal experience reigns supreme..

I didn't say I don't know of any. I just said that we aren't too likely to run into many around here.

I'm still waiting for you to return to the discussion at hand. This little diversion of yours hasn't made people forget

If you're trying to resurrect the faith debate, I think I told you a long time ago that I was not going to discuss that with you any further. There seems little point, in my opinion, in continuing to beat a dead horse.
You want to think that there is some "real" difference in "I don't have a belief" or "I do not hold a belief" and the straight up "I don't believe"...that's fine. I'm not terribly sure why this is so deadly important to you, but since it is, I'm willing to back off.
Now, how about you be a gentleman and do the same....

Just in case you didn't get it, let me say it again. I have withdrawn from the debate. In the spirit of good manners, I do not wish to continue to exchange barbs with you. You may have it your own way, it is not important enough to me to go on with it. Very politely, I'm asking you to drop it.
Thank you.

 

[TheBarrd]

No, you don't push any guilt. You just call it "murder," but no, no guilt. How absurd. Your entire position is one based on guilt.

You don't get it, do you? These girls come to us. The guilt is not something we impose, it is already there. And they are angry...angry that they were told that it wasn't really a baby, angry at themselves for letting themselves believe it, angry at society for pushing the lie. Someone has to help them to deal with the reality, because it isn't going to go away. Some of these girls have been to "mental health professionals"...but the psych meds don't do the job. The nightmares just will not go away. The sound of a baby crying, the need to visit the infant's department at the department store, the obsession with other people's babies...
You have no idea, do you? I'll bet you didn't have the guts to go and look at the link I posted...you do not want to see what is left after the abortionist is finished.
It is not these girls who ought to bear the guilt for their babies...it is people like you, who don't have the first clue in the world what they are talking about, but merely parrot some politically correct phrase...
Those of us who have literally walked with these women...who have given our time, and our money, and our love to them...we know the reality. The blood of these innocent little ones is not on our hands...

Women can have self-respect and still enjoy sex.

Yes...in a committed relationship with a man who loves her. Otherwise she's just letting herself be used, only to be tossed aside like a used Kleenex tissue...

 

[TheBarrd]

Every single person who hollers about "a woman's right to choose" ought to have to go through the experience with a woman in a crisis pregnancy. The majority of them do not want to choose abortion. They feel pressured into it.
Walk with her into the abortion clinic. Stand and watch as the procedure is done. Look closely at what is taken out of her.
Walk with her during the weeks and months afterward, as she must deal with the aftermath of her "choice". Hold her while she cries in your arms. Get up with her in the night as she frantically searches for the baby she hears crying. Walk with her as she drifts into the baby department at WalMart. Sit with her on her "due date"...
Once you've done that a few times, come back and tell me all about how you are helping to "empower women"...

 

[quatona]

Yes...in a committed relationship with a man who loves her. Otherwise she's just letting herself be used, only to be tossed aside like a used Kleenex tissue...

You make it sound like in your view the relationship between man and woman is a subject-object relationship. I do not share that view and premise.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I didn't say I don't know of any. I just said that we aren't too likely to run into many around here.

And? So what? That justifies your position how?

If you're trying to resurrect the faith debate, I think I told you a long time ago that I was not going to discuss that with you any further. There seems little point, in my opinion, in continuing to beat a dead horse.

What do you mean "resurrect"? You were evasive and attempted to derail the thread.

You want to think that there is some "real" difference in "I don't have a belief" or "I do not hold a belief" and the straight up "I don't believe"...that's fine. I'm not terribly sure why this is so deadly important to you, but since it is, I'm willing to back off.

I'm starting to wonder whether you even read any of the comments you responded to. I never stated that there is a real different between "I don't have a belief" and "I do not hold a belief." Either you weren't following or you're misrepresenting my position.

Just in case you didn't get it, let me say it again. I have withdrawn from the debate. In the spirit of good manners, I do not wish to continue to exchange barbs with you. You may have it your own way, it is not important enough to me to go on with it.

So be it.

Very politely, I'm asking you to drop it.
Thank you.

You accused me of supporting the legalisation of sexual perversion and murder. I think we're past the point of politeness.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Now, why do you suppose that most tools are made for right handed people, or why doors for someone who is born with gigantism must be built to order?

Because it's a different genetic makeup that just so happens to be the minority?

While such things do occur, I'd hardly call them "normal".

It happens. People are left handed. People are giants. People are gay. It's a minority, yes, but it's certainly not abnormal as you propose. It's simply the other side of the coin.

And same sex parents are not normal.

How so?

Two women or two men cannot produce children. It is not natural for them to be parents.

That is a super weak argument. I'm actually gonna ignore it. For your sake.

I know a gay couple...two women, an interracial couple...one of them had a child from a previous encounter...seems she used to be straight, but later "chose" to be gay...not my words, hers.

Bi-sexual. Ding. Or just was gay.

Anyway, most of the time, to the casual observer, it seems everything is honky dory...

Until the bigots arrive or until... you know... life happens. Just like it does to every other human being?

Or it was, up till about a year ago. It seems the child complained that her mother's partner was touching her in inappropriate ways.

Okay? Point?

Anyhow, the natural father sued for custody and won...seems he's remarried...to a woman...and the court decided that he was the better parent.

How does this make an argument against same sex parenting??? LOL do you want me to bring up heterosexual examples of this happening or are you gonna concede this one?

This doesn't make your case seem strong. Held up on one story of a pedophile which has been known to be a thing since forever.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes...in a committed relationship with a man who loves her. Otherwise she's just letting herself be used, only to be tossed aside like a used Kleenex tissue...

No, she can have sex if she wants. She's a person, not a kleenex tissue.

Every single person who hollers about "a woman's right to choose" ought to have to go through the experience with a woman in a crisis pregnancy. The majority of them do not want to choose abortion. They feel pressured into it.

Evidence?

Walk with her into the abortion clinic. Stand and watch as the procedure is done. Look closely at what is taken out of her.
Walk with her during the weeks and months afterward, as she must deal with the aftermath of her "choice". Hold her while she cries in your arms. Get up with her in the night as she frantically searches for the baby she hears crying. Walk with her as she drifts into the baby department at WalMart. Sit with her on her "due date"...
Once you've done that a few times, come back and tell me all about how you are helping to "empower women"...

Walk past all the placard-waving people who picket the clinic and holler "abortion is murder"? You still want to pretend that there is no attempt to impose guilt on these women?

 

[Dibby]

Many intellectuals of yesteryear used to predict that as western culture became more educated and more intelligent that religion would die off - especially Christianity. The assumption was that there were religious people because of a lack of education and low intelligence.

But they were wrong. All of these predictions have always been wrong.

There are equally brilliant, educated, and intelligent people who are both atheists and religious. The difference doesn't seem to be one of education or intelligence. So what is the difference?

Why are there religious people? Christianity has an answer, but what's the secular answer?

Because there are deeper levels of reality available than that which we normally experience. When people have glimpses or more profound experiences of an altered state of consciousness there is a need to make sense of it. Religion can do that. But religion can also get in the way of further expansion and learning, hence thats why there is a huge expansion of people who identify as "spiritual and not religious". The rise of the new atheism is mainly in response to fundamentalist religion of one sort or another, religious practicioners who are relying on a one size fits all, hand me down version of reality. So education can certainly deal with some bad aspects of religion, but it won,t necessarily answer the deeper existential needs of human beings. There needs to be a growing up of religion, not an eradication and there are hopeful signs.