Why are there religious people?

FireDragon76 said:

I'm amazed how often people here refuse to really listen to each other. Atheists don't seem to care at all how Christians actually feel about anything. Can you say bullying?

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When you throw up words like "tyranny" and "oppression" and "persecution" when you obviously have no idea what they actually mean, then, no, I don't give a lick how you feel. None whatsoever.

FireDragon76 said:

I'm amazed how often people here refuse to really listen to each other. Atheists don't seem to care at all how Christians actually feel about anything. Can you say bullying?

Refusing to bake a cake is not persecution anymore than a gay baker refusing to make a cake with a homophobic message would be persecution. It's just a matter of conscience and decency. I guess now days that's all thrown out the window in the name of rights for "protected groups".

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Nope. It's thrown out in the name of rights for "everyone."

It that offends you, good.

HitchSlap said:

It bothers me greatly when thoughts of bigotry cross my mind. I have made great efforts over the last ten years to correct and "rewire" my prejudicial and bigoted views that were inculcated during my formative years. This really became important for me when I let go my religious fetters, and embraced a more humanistic approach.

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So really, the only prejudice you have left is the one against Christians, right?

Look, I have no problem with "gay rights". I really don't care who marries who or what you do in the privacy of your own home.
I realize that you should not be expected to live according to Christian rules, as you are not a Christian. My God's laws do not apply to you. I get that.
What I object to is the "in your face" attitude. Is the first thing you announce when you go into someone's place of business "I'm a homosexual"? It's not as if we can tell by looking at you, you know.
Now, let's say that I am the owner of the bake shop. You come to me wanting me to bake a wedding cake. All I really need to know is how you want it done...I don't need to know that it's for a gay wedding, do I? I need to know when you will need to pick it up, right? Why fill me in on details that are none of my business?

HitchSlap said:

Nope. It's thrown out in the name of rights for "everyone."

It that offends you, good.

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Rights for everyone except for those who are people of faith (this doesn't just affect Christians).

The only reason you support this line of reasoning is because believers get hurt by it. If it were any other group being told how to run their business, you'ld probably see it as their rights being trampled.

Look, I have no problem with "gay rights".

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It would appear, you have no problem, until they walk in a publically accommodating business expecting to be served. Then, you do have a problem with them having equal rights.

Really, after reading your posts, to state you have no problem with gay rights wrings a bit hollow.

FireDragon76 said:

Rights for everyone except for those who are people of faith (this doesn't just affect Christians).

The only reason you support this line of reasoning is because believers get hurt by it. If it were any other group being told how to run their business, you'ld probably see it as their rights being trampled.

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You don't get the right to discriminate against people. Neither does anyone else.

FireDragon76 said:

Rights for everyone except for those who are people of faith (this doesn't just affect Christians).

The only reason you support this line of reasoning is because believers get hurt by it. If it were any other group being told how to run their business, you'ld probably see it as their rights being trampled.

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You seem to be projecting here. I'm for human rights. Period.

All are equal under the law. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists and atheists are all equal under the law. It's intolerance that leads to hate. Unfortunately for you, religions foster this kind of thinking. I see it as cowardice, as it allows you to blame your bad behavior on an outside source (in this case, your bible), instead of shouldering the blame yourself. It's repugnant behavior, and everyone can see right through your motivations.

TheBarrd said:

So really, the only prejudice you have left is the one against Christians, right?

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Not at all. Unfortunately for you, many Christians are bigots as well, so I understand your persecution complex.

TheBarrd said:

Look, I have no problem with "gay rights".

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Obviously, as evidenced by your "quotation ellipses."

TheBarrd said:

I really don't care who marries who or what you do in the privacy of your own home.

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Me either, including religion.

TheBarrd said:

I realize that you should not be expected to live according to Christian rules, as you are not a Christian. My God's laws do not apply to you.

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Agreed.

TheBarrd said:

I get that.

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Good.

TheBarrd said:

What I object to is the "in your face" attitude.

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I much prefer people to not be rude in public also.

TheBarrd said:

Is the first thing you announce when you go into someone's place of business "I'm a homosexual"?

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That would be rude and weird, and not just because I'm a heterosexual.

TheBarrd said:

It's not as if we can tell by looking at you, you know.

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Agreed.

TheBarrd said:

Now, let's say that I am the owner of the bake shop.

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Ok.

TheBarrd said:

You come to me wanting me to bake a wedding cake. All I really need to know is how you want it done...I don't need to know that it's for a gay wedding, do I? I need to know when you will need to pick it up, right? Why fill me in on details that are none of my business?

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Ok.

HitchSlap said:

I see it as cowardice, as it allows you to blame your bad behavior on an outside source (in this case, your bible), instead of shouldering the blame yourself. It's repugnant behavior, and everyone can see right through your motivations.

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You don't know much about me. I'm one of the most pro-gay people on this forum. I just think this sort of stuff is anything but liberal. Suing businesses because they won't go against their conscience is thuggish behavior. There are ways to get a wedding cake besides harassing people for their religious beliefs.

FireDragon76 said:

Rights for everyone except for those who are people of faith (this doesn't just affect Christians).

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Nope.

Christians also have the right to be served in a public accommodating business.

I can understand not wanting to bake a wedding cake with a message on it, but not wanting to fix a car or bake pizza is not something I'd ever understand. They pretty much do not have any speech content, whereas a wedding cake is full of symbolism.

FireDragon76 said:

You don't know much about me. I'm one of the most pro-gay people on this forum.

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Obviously.

FireDragon76 said:

I just think this sort of stuff is anything but liberal.

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I agree, this has nothing to do with politics.

FireDragon76 said:

Suing businesses because they won't go against their conscience is thuggish behavior.

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They probably were sued because they acted discriminatory. Which is unlawful. America is still a republic, not a theocracy, in spite of what Dobson may think.

FireDragon76 said:

There are ways to get a wedding cake besides harassing people for their religious beliefs.

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And there are ways to have your religious beliefs without discriminating against god's children.

HitchSlap said:

I agree, this has nothing to do with politics.

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I meant "liberal" as in respecting a persons natural rights. Freedom of speech and association are basic rights. In a controversial issue like gay marriage, making a wedding cake with the names of two people of the same sex could be construed as a political statement. Forcing someone to do that against their conscience is illiberal. You need a very good reason to justify that. And I don't see anybody having a right to a wedding cake in the Constitution, sorry.

They probably were sued because they acted discriminatory. Which is unlawful. America is still a republic, not a theocracy, in spite of what Dobson may think.

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Dobson has been dead for years, you know?

TheBarrd said:

Well, if they don't have a sign, then, yes, they should serve homosexuals or anyone else who comes in.

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More to the point if they don't have a sign how are people to know that they happen to be Christians?

TheBarrd said:

I've heard of such, as well. I always wonder if they own a Bible, or if they do, if they've bothered to read it.

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And they wonder the same about you. Part of my issue with religion is the complete lack of any way to validate an interpretation. However, the point is that Christians have widely differing point of view on this subject so simply being Christian does not inform someone of their stance.

TheBarrd said:

I was a proponent of equal rights for black people, and I still am, more or less...I'm beginning to worry that we may have to march for equal rights for white people, LOL.
However, I refuse to equate the scuffle going on for gay marriage with the epic struggle of black people from slavery to equal citizens. It is definitely NOT the same thing.

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Refuse away. Your refusal does not change the fact that they are like one another nor does it change the fact that the courts and civil rights activists see the similarities. Denying reality does not change it and if you run afoul the law it will not aid in your defense.

TheBarrd said:

I don't expect people who are not Christians to live under Christian rules. I know some folks do, but it isn't a reasonable expectation. I have every respect for the rights of others to live their lives however they choose. Love whoever you want to love...it is none of my business. Get married if you want to. I honestly do not care. A state issued marriage license is not the same thing as "married in the eyes of God." It never was, and even less so since "no fault divorce".
All I'm asking for is that you respect my right to live under Christian rules. Is that really so much to ask?

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No. I fully respect your right to live under Christian rules. All I ask is that you take the responsibility to ensure your following of a particular path is not forced on to others. If serving sinners is going to be an issue you should likely take the steps necessary to ensure you do not have to break the law to stick to your conscience.

TheBarrd said:

Once again, you are wasting your efforts on me. I will never accept that the struggle for "gay rights" is anywhere near or anything like what the blacks suffered.

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Your acceptance is not necessary. The fact that the courts and those in power see it is enough.

TheBarrd said:

You remind me of those Christians who, when they get insulted in chat, wail "PERSECUTION"...trying to equate themselves with those poor Christians in other countries who are seriously suffering for their faith. Just like them, you don't know what REAL persecution is. Having some baker tell you he ain't gonna bake a cake for no gay wedding is hardly persecution.
It's nothing but a diversionary tactic...the ol' "bait and switch".
Sorry...doesn't work on me.

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Yes, It is not like the time when being outed as a homosexual would cause you to lose your job, family, and sometimes your life is still within living memory. But hey, what do you care? You have stated no matter what evidence is presented you will not consider it.

Colter said:

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HitchSlap said:

Not at all. Unfortunately for you, many Christians are bigots as well, so I understand your persecution complex..

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Hitch, I don't have a persecution complex. I could give a rat's...uh...tail that some folks don't like me. I'm not trying to be the Queen of the Prom, or even the most popular girl on campus. Calling me names on the internet is hardly "persecution". No one is trying to force me to live in filthy ghettos. There are no "non Christian only" restrooms or water fountains. No one is trying to down my house or my church. There are no huge gangs of men dressed up in sheets wanting to hang me at weird ceremony nor have I been awakened by a burning cross on my front lawn. My children have not been brutally raped and had their heads shaved by anti-Christian gangs, nor have they been forced into inferior schools to try to learn what they can among filthy conditions and out of date, torn textbooks. I've not been imprisoned for my faith, nor seen my loved ones beheaded...
I'll let you know if any of that ever does happen to me, and then you may rant about my "persecution complex".

HitchSlap said:

Obviously, as evidenced by your "quotation ellipses." .

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So, you'd be happier if I said that I have no problem with gay rights, without the quotation marks? Negative perspiration. I have no problem with gay rights.
I do, however, have a problem with homosexuals, or anyone else who tramples on Christian rights to practice their religion as they see fit, either at home or at their own place of business. Of course,

HitchSlap said:

Me either, including religion..

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My religion requires that I practice it in all areas of my life. That doesn't mean I have to shove it down your throat...only that I am to walk as a child of God ought to walk. Lots of folks don't understand that this means that I can have gay friends without approving of their lifestyle. Jesus was also criticized for eating with "publicans and sinners". I have one buddy we'd been friends for years before I even knew she was gay. She knows I'm a Christian and where I stand on the subject, but that doesn't stop us from enjoying each others company. She doesn't ask me to violate my faith, and I don't preach to her about "hell"...

HitchSlap said:

Agreed.



Good..

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See, we aren't so very far apart.

HitchSlap said:

I much prefer people to not be rude in public also..

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I'm very glad to hear that.

HitchSlap said:

That would be rude and weird, and not just because I'm a heterosexual..

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You don't feel the need to announce it to everyone you meet, do you? You don't dress up in revealing clothes with your buttocks hanging out waving a flag, do you? In fact, unless we were attracted to each other, there'd be no reason for me to know anything at all about your sexual kinks, would there?
Of course not.
Now if only we could get that through gay heads.


Agreed.



Ok.

Ok.[/QUOTE]

So, if you were helping to plan your gay friends wedding, and it fell to you to order the cake, you'd feel no obligation to tell the baker that it was for a gay wedding. You tell him that you want this size, with three graduating layers separated by pillars and decorated with roses. There may be a problem when it comes to the topper, but there are ways to get around that.

See, we aren't so different after all....

Colter said:

Belief is belief,

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Yes, and lack of belief is lack of belief.

you seem unwilling to own your current belief/philosophy of life.

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I'm happy to acknowledge what I do believe about life. But you don't seem interested in that. All that matters to you is what I don't believe, which you mistakenly equate to a belief.

This issue is not confined to Atheist, religionists have belief obveously. As a professional in the feild pshycology I would think that you would readily understand that people have beliefs about all sorts of things.

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Yes, people have beliefs about all sorts of things. Where have I denied this? What point are you getting at, if any?

An example of a Godless ideal would be the theory of uncaused evolution, that there was no mind behind the creation of mind, that conciousness has no real access to spiritual influence.

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That's a "godless ideal"? It seems just like an idea to me. But apparently we can't even discuss this idea without being accused of violating neutrality, as though neutrality were some sort of sacred norm.

TheBarrd said:

You know that the bakery is a Christian establishment.

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No, as a customer, I don't know that. No where on the shopfront does it say "This is a Christian establishment" or "We reserve the right to not serve sinners as we see fit". It's a bakery. I don't care about the religion of the baker.

You know that Christians have a problem with gay.

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Some Christians have a problem with homosexuality. So even if I knew that the bakery was a "Christian establishment" (whatever that means), I wouldn't know whether the baker had some religious objection to homosexuality or not. In any case, how they feel about homosexuality is irrelevant to the reason I'm there. I'm not there as a customer to ask for their opinions on SSM, but to buy baked goods. I'm not there to hear a sermon, but to buy a cake.

Do you really want THAT particular bakery, and no other will do?
Or are you just after the publicity that you know their refusal will generate?

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I want to be treated fairly and like every other customer who walks through the door. Is that really too much to ask?

UH....I think you want what is behind door number two. You could care less about the cake. You just want to make your wedding one more opportunity to shove Christian's faces into your....uh...stuff...

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I'm not gay. I've been with my partner for almost 10 years. If we were to marry I doubt we'd have any difficulty obtaining cake. My brother is gay. If he were to marry I would want him and his partner to be treated the same way my partner and I are treated.

Perhaps the bakery should have done the cake...and then, when it came time to deliver it, ooops!!!!! Didn't mean to drop it all over your lovely wedding gowns. Accidents happen...don't worry, we won't charge you for the cake. Please accept our apologies...

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How petty and vindictive. You should be ashamed.

TheBarrd said:

And come heck or high water, you're gonna by golly force em even though there are tons of places where you could go and get the service and the respect that you deserve.
But it does get you those headlines, eh?

This isn't really about a wedding cake.
This is about making people accept "gay is okay" whether they like it or not.
I can understand why you guys want that acceptance, but force is not the way to go about it.
Do you truly want Christians to accept you? Then show us that you can also respect our beliefs.

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I don't respect your beliefs. I respect your right to have beliefs, but why should I respect your beliefs? Your beliefs about homosexuality are bigoted. I don't respect that at all.