Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[DeeR.]

What? The scripture literally says to fear the one who can destroy both body AND soul in the lake of fire... So are you saying God isn't powerful enough to destroy souls, even though he created them? Why are you refuting scripture? You are so wrong and deceived it's actually sad. You think God is more fine with letting the majority of his creating burn forever than just destroying all evil and restoring his creation when he makes the new earth? Which God do you even serve? The sad thing is you literally believe in eternal torment even though that is not biblical AND it is psychotic to believe that if we are being honest.

Romans 16:26 says, "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith ...." The word "aionios" is used here as an adjective directly describing God Himself. So, those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that God Himself will one day cease to exist! Obviously, God is everlasting, and so is the torment of the lost.

 

[DeeR.]

What? The scripture literally says to fear the one who can destroy both body AND soul in the lake of fire... So are you saying God isn't powerful enough to destroy souls, even though he created them? Why are you refuting scripture? You are so wrong and deceived it's actually sad. You think God is more fine with letting the majority of his creating burn forever than just destroying all evil and restoring his creation when he makes the new earth? Which God do you even serve? The sad thing is you literally believe in eternal torment even though that is not biblical AND it is psychotic to believe that if we are being honest.

The prophecy in Matthew 25:46 provides two examples of the use of this word. At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus Christ will divide the Gentile tribulation survivors into two groups. Then He will say, "And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios)." Here, the English words "everlasting" and "eternal" are each translated from the same Greek word "aionios". Over and over, the word "aionios" is also used to describe the punishment of the lost. For example, Matthew 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ...." Some other examples are Matthew 18:8, Mark 3:29, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Hebrews 6:2, and Jude 1:7. Also, the word "aionios" is used over and over to describe the life of those who receive salvation. For example, Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (aionios) life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Some other examples are John 6:47, Acts 13:48, Romans 5:21, 1 Timothy 1:16, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11, and Jude 21. Therefore, those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end.

 

[DeeR.]

What? The scripture literally says to fear the one who can destroy both body AND soul in the lake of fire... So are you saying God isn't powerful enough to destroy souls, even though he created them? Why are you refuting scripture? You are so wrong and deceived it's actually sad. You think God is more fine with letting the majority of his creating burn forever than just destroying all evil and restoring his creation when he makes the new earth? Which God do you even serve? The sad thing is you literally believe in eternal torment even though that is not biblical AND it is psychotic to believe that if we are being honest.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10-15).

 

[DeeR.]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10-15).

And Jesus said, Amen.

 

[Pneuma3]

The word "aionios" is used 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is eternal. The word "aionios" is also used to describe the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), salvation (Hebrews 5:9), redemption (Hebrews 9:12), the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that all of these will one day expire.

Actually aionios NEVER means eternal. The Greek word for eternal is aidios, not aionios which is actually an adjective of the word aion which means age, thus aionios is that which pertains to an age.

 

[DM25]

I don't believe anyone said that any deserves to burn forever. I believe I deserve it, but God has not given me as I deserve. No, God does not give us as we deserves He allows us to choose what path we will. Glory to God forever.

No one, including you, deserves to be burned forever and ever. For 1000 years? Ok yeah I deserve that too. But you are not being honest with yourself if you think you deserve to be tormented for eternity over a lifetime of sin and rejection... It is also not biblical. If you truly believe that something is wrong.

You probably didn't see my big post I made a couple weeks ago giving overwhelming biblical evidence for death being the eternal punishment for the wicked. Please give it a read.

Ok can you guys PLEASE read my entire post here to see where I am coming from... I put a lot of effort making this post and sharing my personal revelation.

I can't keep track of this thread anymore because there have been so many new posts. But I think so many people have been completely indoctrinated by the false eternal torment teaching made by the early catholic church when the bible never directly mentioned it. And people have been so indoctrinated that they don't even realize death, being separated from God for eternity and not having life, is punishment. No one wants to die and if someone says they are fine with it they are not being honest with themselves. Being burned to death in the lake of fire is a just punishment by a just God.

So now we got the emotional stuff out of the way, how about we get into scripture and what it says? Give me some scripture where you think it says the wicked will be tormented for eternity and I will take it in delight. I will refute it without twisting anything. The word of God says what it says.


There is ONE verse that talks about being "tormented day and night forever and ever." and it literally says it will be for the devil.

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Even here according to the Greek translation forever and ever isn't literally translated to eternity, but let's just say it is for the sake of argument... It still doesn't prove wicked people will be tormented for eternity. Only the devil.



Now that we got that verse out of the way, which we can conclude is for the devil, there is not any other verse in the word of God that states the wicked's punishment is eternal torment. Here are a couple verses on the punishment itself (not the torment) being eternal:

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

I think it's pretty obvious death is a form of eternal punishment. If it isn't to you, well I don't know what to say to you... But I would much rather be alive and with God for eternity than punished to death for eternity. Death with no chance of ever coming back is not a good fate to have.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." - good verse to those who think souls can't be destroyed. God made you and he can destroy you as well. This verse proves both the soul and the body can be destroyed.

We of course know the bible states "the wages of sin is death" numerous times too. As well as "The wicked will perish". You can find this all over scripture.




Now the lake of fire is where the wicked will be burned to death. There is a punishment there, that is not a fun way to die. There will also be torment there as the bible says. Nobody is denying hell isn't real and there won't be torment. I am simply stating eternal torment is a lie, not that torment itself before the wicked die. There will be pain and torment in hell as punishment along with death, nobody is denying that. But don't get it twisted, the unsaved will indeed die there in the lake of fire and that is the ultimate punishment. Here is one verse describing the torment:

Matthew 13:50
"and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."




Now let's get into the juicier verses.... The ones you guys have been waiting for. The ones that eternal torment people always use and think they win. However what you don't realize is even in these verses, it does not say the torment is eternal once. People can make an assumption that that's what it means, but that's only an assumption. It's not what scripture says directly. It does not say the punishment is eternal torment. These verses talk about the fire and the smoke. It says these will go on forever... Fire and smoke itself is different from torment. I believe the bible uses this to illustrate the eternal punishment and judgement for those who disobeyed him and that the punishment had eternal consequences, even though the individual torment ended. That's why the fire won't get put out, but the torment itself for the unsaved will end. Let's read it...

Mark 9:44-48
"where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED" - Keep in mind in this verse it talks about "their worms" dying not, meaning the bodies themselves will get completely consumed by the worms. These worms are actually references to the maggots in the dumpsters of Jerusalem. These worms can be eternal creatures, but I think it's simply metaphorical here describing the consumption of the wicked bodies in the lake of fire by the worms.

Jude 1:7
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." - again, just says the fire is eternal but does not specifically say the punishment is eternal torment.

Revelation 14:11 King James Version (KJV)
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." - A lot of people assume day or night means day or night forever. But it doesn't say that. It simply says no rest day or night while they get consumed and tormented in the lake of fire. It doesn't say that will happen eternally.

Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

There are probably some more verses mentioning the same thing. But as you can see, it only shows the fire and smoke being eternal. If you look at the old testament, smoke is actually a metaphor for destruction. So just because the fire and smoke is not put out, does not mean the torment of the individual is eternal. The bible never says it is! Eternal fire and smoke in scripture does not mean eternal torment. Which again proves the ultimate punishment is eternal death.



In conclusion, I think this eternal torment teaching is without a doubt in my mind the BIGGEST lie that has been spread in the Christian faith by far. It is quite remarkably sad how big this became and how the truth is labeled as heresy now. It seems as if now only some can see it and are awake. It's difficult convincing people when they have been indoctrinated so long and have people from all corners promoting lies and labeling truth as bad. If you research it you can see the roots of this teaching came from the early catholic church. The motive? I think it's obvious... To prevent people coming to the faith through truth. If someone believes the faith teaches eternal torment by a just God, they will be way less likely to believe it and come to the faith and that's what satan wants, to push people away from God and truth. Remember the first lie satan told? That you shall not surely die? It all makes perfect sense now. But the truth is as we can see from scripture, God is just. Burning to death in the lake of fire and being separated from him for eternity by dying and having eternal death is a just punishment for those who rejected him, the one who gave them life. God is the one who gave people life, he is also the one who offered them to keep their lives through faith in Jesus Christ, so the natural consequence and punishment for rejecting him is to take away their lives, death is the most sensible conclusion. Can you see how it all fits together? God is life, the opposite of God is death. Everything makes sense now. I also did pray about it and God did give me the answer through a verse in scripture immediately after describing how the unrighteous will perish. It is pretty much confirmed to me now.

Please read my entire post. It took me an hour to write. If you have any questions or anything, feel free to ask. My eyes were opened a lot by this revelation.

 

[DM25]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10-15).

And where does it say the wicked people will be tormented day and night? It says THE DEVIL will be tormented forever and ever, not humans. Nice try but that does not prove anything. It does not say eternal torment for wicked people in the bible, you only posted a verse talking about the devil, not humans. So you really have nothing.

 

[DM25]

Romans 16:26 says, "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith ...." The word "aionios" is used here as an adjective directly describing God Himself. So, those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that God Himself will one day cease to exist! Obviously, God is everlasting, and so is the torment of the lost.

No, God is life and he is everlasting and righteous will have eternal life. The lost people will DIE they won't have eternal torment that idea is ridiculous.

 

[DM25]

I don't believe anyone said that any deserves to burn forever. I believe I deserve it, but God has not given me as I deserve. No, God does not give us as we deserves He allows us to choose what path we will. Glory to God forever.

It doesn't matter that people choose that path.... Firstly, many people choose the path for simply not believing, not as if they know they are going to hell. Next, even if people knowingly know they will be in hell forever, the punishment still does not fit the crime at all... Do you not realize it is NOT just even if someone chooses it? If someone chooses to commit a crime, the punishment fits the crime. Prison time for a set amount of year, maybe even life. But the punishment does NOT fit the crime for a lifetime of rejecting the creator and sinning, and burning FOREVER because of it. That is NOT just. The logical and just punishment for rejecting the one who gave you life, is death. And God even says so.

 

[DM25]

No they don't. can you show me where hell\Gehenna is ever referred to the lake of fire\2nd death.



No I am saying God will not annihilate any soul, which is what you think that scripture is referring to.



I'm not, I am refuting your understanding of scripture.



HUH? I believe in the salvation of all, not ECT or annihilation. I believe exactly what we are commanded to teach which is Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.



The one of LOVE for all of humanity that sent his son Jesus into the world to save it, thus will not fail to do that which He set out to do.



Where in heck do you get the idea that I believe in ECT?
I believe in the salvation of all, just as the gospel proclaims.

My apologies as I thought you were defending the eternal torture chamber theory. I still disagree with universalism though, I don't believe it is biblical.

 

[Pneuma3]

It doesn't matter that people choose that path.... Firstly, many people choose the path for simply not believing, not as if they know they are going to hell. Next, even if people knowingly know they will be in hell forever, the punishment still does not fit the crime at all... Do you not realize it is NOT just even if someone chooses it? If someone chooses to commit a crime, the punishment fits the crime. Prison time for a set amount of year, maybe even life. But the punishment does NOT fit the crime for a lifetime of rejecting the creator and sinning, and burning FOREVER because of it. That is NOT just. The logical and just punishment for rejecting the one who gave you life, is death. And God even says so.

DM25 we agree the wages of sin is death not ECT.

But why do you see this death as annihilation?

Let me give you something to think on (hopefully you will take the time to reflect on this)

The wages of sin is death.
The law is a ministration of death.

Thus the wages of sin is being brought into judgment via the law so that the law (which is the wrath of God) can lead us to Christ because the law is also our schoolmaster for that very purpose.

What this shows people (if they can actually see it) is that when Gods judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness, because Gods judgments via the law which ministers death to our old man is also our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

Thus showing Gods judgments are corrective and lead us to the Father.

 

[DeeR.]

No one, including you, deserves to be burned forever and ever. For 1000 years? Ok yeah I deserve that too. But you are not being honest with yourself if you think you deserve to be tormented for eternity over a lifetime of sin and rejection... It is also not biblical. If you truly believe that something is wrong.

You probably didn't see my big post I made a couple weeks ago giving overwhelming biblical evidence for death being the eternal punishment for the wicked. Please give it a read.

You are so smug and self righteous my dear friend my heart truly sincerely goes out to you, it is a huge burden to bear indeed. May He give you His rest. No one, including You, is left out from His promise of Eternally being secure in His everlasting arms. What a joyful blessing. God is great !

 

[DeeR.]

No one, including you, deserves to be burned forever and ever. For 1000 years? Ok yeah I deserve that too. But you are not being honest with yourself if you think you deserve to be tormented for eternity over a lifetime of sin and rejection... It is also not biblical. If you truly believe that something is wrong.

You probably didn't see my big post I made a couple weeks ago giving overwhelming biblical evidence for death being the eternal punishment for the wicked. Please give it a read.

Sadly dear friend you say say text is plain other text is metaphor, how come you do not understand that Eternal burning is the same burning people burn with here by choice and enter into eternity with by choice.... anyway.... have a peaceful sleep, may Jesus keep you safe and give you His peace and rest from your labors.

 

[DeeR.]

It doesn't matter that people choose that path.... Firstly, many people choose the path for simply not believing, not as if they know they are going to hell. Next, even if people knowingly know they will be in hell forever, the punishment still does not fit the crime at all... Do you not realize it is NOT just even if someone chooses it? If someone chooses to commit a crime, the punishment fits the crime. Prison time for a set amount of year, maybe even life. But the punishment does NOT fit the crime for a lifetime of rejecting the creator and sinning, and burning FOREVER because of it. That is NOT just. The logical and just punishment for rejecting the one who gave you life, is death. And God even says so.

There will be no explanations needed everyone will know it is their decision by what they have given themselves to. God sends no one, they have chosen it. Fire and hell are not as you imagine them to be, temporal physical fire, no, the fire the eternal fire the opposites of everything God Is (Love Peace Joy etc.), has, and gives ... it is the absence of these things which is a fire inside that never has relief, why you ask, because people refuse to turn from their bitterness anger hatred and resentments and be saved. It is something they will live with every moment because they do not want to let go of their hatred and anger, so God lets them have their way and choice... it is truly sad, but if they want it, they will have a place and be allowed to choose it as they have in life and they will not have to be bothered with Peace Joy Love etc. ever again. It hurts God's heart so deeply, but He has given all the choice Him or not him.... our word actions and choices define us and who we are & therefore what we choose. It will never get any better , but as the bitter know, it consumes and gets worse. It is an evil snare that joins to a willing host.

 

[DeeR.]

duplicate

 

[ClementofA]

The word "aionios" is also used to describe the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14), salvation (Hebrews 5:9), redemption (Hebrews 9:12), the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:11), the honor and power of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16), God's glory (1 Peter 5:10), and our immortal bodies that we will one day receive (2 Corinthians 5:1). Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that all of these will one day expire.

That was Augustine's spurious, simplistic argument. He was quite ignorant of the Greek language. Consider, for example, the following:

More literal translations of the Greek word aionion in Mt.25:46 say:

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

For further reading re Matthew 25:46:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

The word "aionios" is used 71 times in the Bible, and every time it is used, it is describing something that is eternal.

Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

Words have various meanings depending upon their context. In ancient Koine Greek, which includes the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, aionios refers - at least sometimes - if not often - to a finite duration, not eternal duration. Many scholars admit that the Greek word aionios is used of age lasting and/or finite duration . Even more scholars recognize that fact. The fact is the word aionios can refer to a finite duration. For example:

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios:

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[DeeR.]

That was Augustine's spurious, simplistic argument. He was quite ignorant of the Greek language. Consider, for example, the following:

More literal translations of the Greek word aionion in Mt.25:46 say:

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

For further reading re Matthew 25:46:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?




Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

Words have various meanings depending upon their context. In ancient Koine Greek, which includes the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, aionios refers - at least sometimes - if not often - to a finite duration, not eternal duration. Many scholars admit that the Greek word aionios is used of age lasting and/or finite duration . Even more scholars recognize that fact. The fact is the word aionios can refer to a finite duration. For example:

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios:

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Oh yes, my friend Clement, Augustine was very simplistic and spurious and contributed so little. We are most blessed to have you clear up his babbling. How casually you dismiss Augustine... but the humerus part of it all is that that did not come from Augustine at all. So you make a comeback based on ridiculing Augustine's Greek skills but this was not from Augustine at all.

 

[DeeR.]

That was Augustine's spurious, simplistic argument. He was quite ignorant of the Greek language. Consider, for example, the following:

More literal translations of the Greek word aionion in Mt.25:46 say:

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

For further reading re Matthew 25:46:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?




Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

Words have various meanings depending upon their context. In ancient Koine Greek, which includes the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, aionios refers - at least sometimes - if not often - to a finite duration, not eternal duration. Many scholars admit that the Greek word aionios is used of age lasting and/or finite duration . Even more scholars recognize that fact. The fact is the word aionios can refer to a finite duration. For example:

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios:

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Do you not realize that when you criticize a Christian, especially one not here to defend himself, it shows a poor spirit. Do you not realize we are all members of the one body, Jesus. He was in no way spurious or simplistic.

 

[Pneuma3]

Do you not realize that when you criticize a Christian, especially one not here to defend himself, it shows a poor spirit. Do you not realize we are all members of the one body, Jesus. He was in no way spurious or simplistic.

He never said Augustine was simplistic he said Augustine's argument, based on his lack of Greek knowledge, was simplistic. you need to reread his post.

 

[DeeR.]

That was Augustine's spurious, simplistic argument. He was quite ignorant of the Greek language. Consider, for example, the following:

More literal translations of the Greek word aionion in Mt.25:46 say:

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives:

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

For further reading re Matthew 25:46:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?




Easy to say. Another thing to prove. Can you prove the "aionion" fire (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom burned forever? Is Sodom still burning? If that fire was temporary & not "eternal", why must the use of the same words, aionion fire, in Matthew 18:8 & 25:41 mean the fire is "eternal"? Is Love Omnipotent an eternal sadist infinitely worse than what Satan, Hitler & Stalin have done combined?

Words have various meanings depending upon their context. In ancient Koine Greek, which includes the New Testament and Greek Old Testament, aionios refers - at least sometimes - if not often - to a finite duration, not eternal duration. Many scholars admit that the Greek word aionios is used of age lasting and/or finite duration . Even more scholars recognize that fact. The fact is the word aionios can refer to a finite duration. For example:

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios:

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved"


Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Jesus expresses so very much by using so many various ways. Remember our wisdom logic and reasoning are far below his and he is not obligated to follow your word choice.His wisdom is looked at as foolishness to the world.. remember the scholars and teachers of the law who tried to contradict His wisdom often?
And no, if by your reasoning Jesus has to chose better words if He meant eternal, He would not have said eternal punishment if they cease to exist.. how would they be punished eternally then. And thank you for agreeing that the word meant exactly what was stated that you said was not true 'Could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean...' you ask... Are you saying it doesn't mean eternal or now that it does mean eternal but could 'eternal punishment' be talking about.... (Why state a question based on a definition you do not believe and attempt to use it to support your argument? That is confusing.