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Aaand there it is. You obviously didn't read my post. Eternal punishment does not mean eternal torment. It means eternal punishment, and death is eternal punishment. If you disagree that death is punishment, that is your problem. But I believe what the bible says.Then you clearly haven’t read the Bible or this thread. Here is one mention of eternal punishment: Matthew 25:31-46
I never denied it didn't mean eternal punishment. Eternal punishment is death, not torment.αἰώνιον κόλασιν = aiōnion kolasin = eternal punishment
Excuse me? I am a born-again Christian and I have prayed hard and did my research on this topic and you are calling it heresy? What is the matter with you? I'm beginning to think you are a troll who wants to defend eternal torment for your own agenda. You obviously are not making good arguments, calling the truth heresy. Ridiculous. Yeah because some of us go by the bible and don't believe in eternal torture chambers because we have the wisdom of the holy spirit, we are heretics. Good one.No thanks. I don’t desire to partner in heresy.
Excuse me? I am a born-again Christian and I have prayed hard and did my research on this topic and you are calling it heresy? What is the matter with you? I'm beginning to think you are a troll who wants to defend eternal torment for your own agenda. You obviously are not making good arguments, calling the truth heresy. Ridiculous. Yeah because some of us go by the bible and don't believe in eternal torture chambers because we have the wisdom of the holy spirit, we are heretics. Good one.
Ok can you guys PLEASE read my entire post here to see where I am coming from... I put a lot of effort making this post and sharing my personal revelation.
I can't keep track of this thread anymore because there have been so many new posts. But I think so many people have been completely indoctrinated by the false eternal torment teaching made by the early catholic church when the bible never directly mentioned it. And people have been so indoctrinated that they don't even realize death, being separated from God for eternity and not having life, is punishment. No one wants to die and if someone says they are fine with it they are not being honest with themselves. Being burned to death in the lake of fire is a just punishment by a just God.
So now we got the emotional stuff out of the way, how about we get into scripture and what it says? Give me some scripture where you think it says the wicked will be tormented for eternity and I will take it in delight. I will refute it without twisting anything. The word of God says what it says.
There is ONE verse that talks about being "tormented day and night forever and ever." and it literally says it will be for the devil.
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Even here according to the Greek translation forever and ever isn't literally translated to eternity, but let's just say it is for the sake of argument... It still doesn't prove wicked people will be tormented for eternity. Only the devil.
Now that we got that verse out of the way, which we can conclude is for the devil, there is not any other verse in the word of God that states the wicked's punishment is eternal torment. Here are a couple verses on the punishment itself (not the torment) being eternal:
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
I think it's pretty obvious death is a form of eternal punishment. If it isn't to you, well I don't know what to say to you... But I would much rather be alive and with God for eternity than punished to death for eternity. Death with no chance of ever coming back is not a good fate to have.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." - good verse to those who think souls can't be destroyed. God made you and he can destroy you as well. This verse proves both the soul and the body can be destroyed.
We of course know the bible states "the wages of sin is death" numerous times too. As well as "The wicked will perish". You can find this all over scripture.
Now the lake of fire is where the wicked will be burned to death. There is a punishment there, that is not a fun way to die. There will also be torment there as the bible says. Nobody is denying hell isn't real and there won't be torment. I am simply stating eternal torment is a lie, not that torment itself before the wicked die. There will be pain and torment in hell as punishment along with death, nobody is denying that. But don't get it twisted, the unsaved will indeed die there in the lake of fire and that is the ultimate punishment. Here is one verse describing the torment:
Matthew 13:50
"and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Now let's get into the juicier verses.... The ones you guys have been waiting for. The ones that eternal torment people always use and think they win. However what you don't realize is even in these verses, it does not say the torment is eternal once. People can make an assumption that that's what it means, but that's only an assumption. It's not what scripture says directly. It does not say the punishment is eternal torment. These verses talk about the fire and the smoke. It says these will go on forever... Fire and smoke itself is different from torment. I believe the bible uses this to illustrate the eternal punishment and judgement for those who disobeyed him and that the punishment had eternal consequences, even though the individual torment ended. That's why the fire won't get put out, but the torment itself for the unsaved will end. Let's read it...
Mark 9:44-48
"where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED" - Keep in mind in this verse it talks about "their worms" dying not, meaning the bodies themselves will get completely consumed by the worms. These worms are actually references to the maggots in the dumpsters of Jerusalem. These worms can be eternal creatures, but I think it's simply metaphorical here describing the consumption of the wicked bodies in the lake of fire by the worms.
Jude 1:7
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." - again, just says the fire is eternal but does not specifically say the punishment is eternal torment.
Revelation 14:11 King James Version (KJV)
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." - A lot of people assume day or night means day or night forever. But it doesn't say that. It simply says no rest day or night while they get consumed and tormented in the lake of fire. It doesn't say that will happen eternally.
Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."
There are probably some more verses mentioning the same thing. But as you can see, it only shows the fire and smoke being eternal. If you look at the old testament, smoke is actually a metaphor for destruction. So just because the fire and smoke is not put out, does not mean the torment of the individual is eternal. The bible never says it is! Eternal fire and smoke in scripture does not mean eternal torment. Which again proves the ultimate punishment is eternal death.
In conclusion, I think this eternal torment teaching is without a doubt in my mind the BIGGEST lie that has been spread in the Christian faith by far. It is quite remarkably sad how big this became and how the truth is labeled as heresy now. It seems as if now only some can see it and are awake. It's difficult convincing people when they have been indoctrinated so long and have people from all corners promoting lies and labeling truth as bad. If you research it you can see the roots of this teaching came from the early catholic church. The motive? I think it's obvious... To prevent people coming to the faith through truth. If someone believes the faith teaches eternal torment by a just God, they will be way less likely to believe it and come to the faith and that's what satan wants, to push people away from God and truth. Remember the first lie satan told? That you shall not surely die? It all makes perfect sense now. But the truth is as we can see from scripture, God is just. Burning to death in the lake of fire and being separated from him for eternity by dying and having eternal death is a just punishment for those who rejected him, the one who gave them life. God is the one who gave people life, he is also the one who offered them to keep their lives through faith in Jesus Christ, so the natural consequence and punishment for rejecting him is to take away their lives, death is the most sensible conclusion. Can you see how it all fits together? God is life, the opposite of God is death. Everything makes sense now. I also did pray about it and God did give me the answer through a verse in scripture immediately after describing how the unrighteous will perish. It is pretty much confirmed to me now.
Please read my entire post. It took me an hour to write. If you have any questions or anything, feel free to ask. My eyes were opened a lot by this revelation.
Orthodox church has false teachings too like the catholic church. Orthodox church is also corrupt like the catholic church. I don't go by church teachings, I go by scripture. I also don't believe in denominations which cause division over quarrels of the law when we all should be in unity and one in Christ.No you’re heretics because you are teaching doctrine that is contrary to the orthodox teachings of the church.
Orthodox church has false teachings too like the catholic church. Orthodox church is also corrupt like the catholic church. I don't go by church teachings, I go by scripture. I also don't believe in denominations which cause division over quarrels of the law when we all should be in unity and one in Christ.
<DM25>Excuse me? I am a born-again Christian and I have prayed hard and did my research on this topic and you are calling it heresy? What is the matter with you? I'm beginning to think you are a troll who wants to defend eternal torment for your own agenda. You obviously are not making good arguments, calling the truth heresy. Ridiculous. Yeah because some of us go by the bible and don't believe in eternal torture chambers because we have the wisdom of the holy spirit, we are heretics. Good one.<end>begin
Unfortunately it is not possible to accept as credible everyone who claims they are born-again and have prayed about something. There are lots of folks around who make the same claim, e.g. LDS, JW, WWCG, UU, OP, UPCI, INC to mention only a few. They can't all be right but they can all be wrong.
Do you honestly think that the main publication of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a credible source?“While Catholic theologians, especially Augustine, thundered against Origenism, as it was called, universal salvation continued to have its advocates in their church as well as in other religious organizations that claimed to be Christian. It was taught by the Albigenses of the eleventh century, the Lollards of the fourteenth, and in the fifteenth century by many of “the Reformers before the Reformation.” Many were the clergy excommunicated, exiled or dismissed from their positions by religious organizations because of teaching universal salvation, in both Catholic and Protestant organizations.”
“In England, for a time during the seventeenth century, universal salvation was among the heresies punishable with imprisonment, other “heresies” being punished with death. About the same time in the United States, in the very religious colony of Massachusetts, one John Gatchell was sentenced “to the pillory and to have his tongue drawn forth and pierced with a hot iron” for teaching universal salvation.”
Does the Bible Teach Universal Salvation? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Do you honestly think that the main publication of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a credible source?
<
…According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,
.....One of the beliefs held by the Jews at the time of Jesus was "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," Judith xvi. 17. The book of Judith was written before the birth of Jesus and was included in the Septuagint.
….
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources;
But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
??? said:Let us look at this verse again:
"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).
Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.
Uh that's wrong though. Most true born-again Christians know the punishment is death. Even if they didn't, not every popular teaching is true. But most people agree with it. At any case, this is NOT a salvation issue. I respect your view because we are saved by grace through faith alone, not interpretations on scripture. I just wish you weren't so rude about it. I explained my argument as well as I can.You are the one who is not in unity. The majority of Christendom believes in eternal punishment.
Also: I said “orthodox teachings” and not Orthodox Church.
Most true born-again Christians know the punishment is death.
And I do too. Because death is eternal punishment.No. There are 2.4 billion Christians in the world and the majority of them believe in eternal punishment.
And I do too. Because death is eternal punishment.No. There are 2.4 billion Christians in the world and the majority of them believe in eternal punishment.
No. There are 2.4 billion Christians in the world and the majority of them believe in eternal punishment.
I’m pointing you to a Pastor because you don’t understand Jesus and you need someone who can explain things to you.
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