Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
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my friend.DeeR.
Counselor by trade Christian by life.
I too resonate with this and empathize with you in this. I am not meaning this as a critique or chastisement. I mean that our war is not against flesh and blood but against principalities of darkness and for us all to be careful when we use labels even if we are labeling others as they label their selves then attaching blame. There are many gentle God loving people who call/called themselves Catholic, and while we should not be divided by titles or labels other than by the label of Jesus, we must speak against that which is wrong by standing for what is right. Rather than point out what groups have what doctrines and are wrong, just speak the truth and let God convict whom He will. We are not fighting groups or labels but are sent to Speak/Live the truth. Catholics and the Catholic church are not the enemy the spirits of evil are. Be gentle and Love first and win over whoever will come by Truth and love. Tolerate no evil on an individual basis or if a false doctrine is preached speak the truth about it and those who practice it; a whole groups usually don't all support every idea. All things will be revealed to those who want to see, and that is not by us fighting but by God giving grace and revelation in Love.
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DeeR.
Counselor by trade Christian by life.
I see truths and errors in every group, however, there are truly those who believe these truths or errors are the entire way to see them, sincerely. Speak to the people who hold these as you are led, just try to do it in love and truth rather than as in opposition. I would rather be Pro-life than Against those who are not.
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That is another tactic of UR-ites misrepresentation. Making it appear that I said something I did not say. Guess I'll have to take you off my radar again. I don't recall ever referring to Jukes writings as "scribblings." I did find a biography of Jukes. More than 8 pages long. Link below.FineLinen said:
.....I cannot find where he ever studied at a college or university, has any degrees or that he ever studied Hebrew or Greek. The bio does mention that he did a lot of reading. So UR-its quote him simply because he writes a bunch of stuff that supports UR.
Letters of Andrew Jukes, Biography
And my screen name is Der Alte. Oldshepherd was the sn I used when I was a mod for 5 years or so.
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DeeR.
Counselor by trade Christian by life.
There are many errors and false teachings in Denominations and divisions ( as Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1) but consider Mother Teresa who overcame by not opposing them but embracing them in more Love while standing on the Rock. When they were wrong she did not divide or oppose but stood firm in faith and action. To speak out against All Catholicism or the entire Pentecostal religion or entire Baptist religion and all their doctrine, is being an"Opposer'; Rather Be 'For' Unity and non labels and speak the complete truths of doctrine to all, about these matters- not just a specific group.... it helps.
I agree with you that there are many errors or wrong teachings in many places, But rather than pick one group out I could say things for example like Let us not fight in worldly wars, but as Jesus taught us, no longer fight with worldly weapons but spiritual weapons, to fight principalities of evil and not mankind.
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Dear DM: My friend there are a number of little details that are escaping your grasp. I would like to introduce you to two lovely words in the koine. Those two words= ta panta. Not panta standing alone, but ta preceding it.
From Him the all comes, thru Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends...
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"For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
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Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Please show me from the bible where the lost receive immortality. (eternal life)
Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? Answer NO
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
and he is eternal thus an eternal fire
Def
per·ish
/ˈperiSH/
verb
- suffer complete ruin or destruction
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Dear Camper:
“Perishing”
Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.” It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
and
"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, “Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep”" (Luke 15:4-7).
This word, “apollumi,” is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)
The original word for “destroy” there is “apollumi” which means “to lose or be lost.” This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the “lost” sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone “perishing.” Such as in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
A better translation would be “whoever believes in Him should not be lost.” We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further “apollumi,” or being “lost” in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.
If apollumi or apollumi meant destruction according to the traditional definition by those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation, then Jesus is lost forever:
"But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and DESTROY (apollumi) Jesus." Matt. 27:20
So then, will you hold to the "traditional" view which makes the word of God of no effect? Or will you have the courage to go against the traditional hell-fire or annihilation view which denigrates the precious victory Jesus bought through conquering death on the Cross for all mankind?
Those who are “lost” or “perished,” are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all “apollumi”, or “lost and perished” as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.
A careful read of the Parable of the Lost Sheep makes it very plain that for Jesus, ninety nine is NOT ENOUGH!
“Perishing”
Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.” It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
and
"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, “Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep”" (Luke 15:4-7).
This word, “apollumi,” is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)
The original word for “destroy” there is “apollumi” which means “to lose or be lost.” This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the “lost” sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone “perishing.” Such as in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
A better translation would be “whoever believes in Him should not be lost.” We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further “apollumi,” or being “lost” in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.
If apollumi or apollumi meant destruction according to the traditional definition by those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation, then Jesus is lost forever:
"But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and DESTROY (apollumi) Jesus." Matt. 27:20
So then, will you hold to the "traditional" view which makes the word of God of no effect? Or will you have the courage to go against the traditional hell-fire or annihilation view which denigrates the precious victory Jesus bought through conquering death on the Cross for all mankind?
Those who are “lost” or “perished,” are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all “apollumi”, or “lost and perished” as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.
A careful read of the Parable of the Lost Sheep makes it very plain that for Jesus, ninety nine is NOT ENOUGH!
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Dear Camper: Punish kolazo primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;"
The original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.
Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.
The original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.
Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.
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The same word "aionion" is translated "everlasting" and "eternal." The punishment lasts as long as the life. Jesus is quoted as saying the word "death" 17 times. When Jesus meant "death" He said "death." Here is what one early church father said about "punishment."
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
The word translated "eternal" is "aionion." This verse shows beyond any doubt that "aionion" means, eternal, everlasting, unending etc. not "age during" or some nonsense like that. "shall never perish" and "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" [Jesus], sounds eternal to me.OHC said:
Another verse which shows beyond any doubt that "aionion" means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. not "age during" or some nonsense like that. "immortal" sounds "eternal" to me.OHC said:
As for the lost receiving immortality see Isa 14:9-11, Ezek 32:18_22, 30-31, Luk 16:22-28 below.
The word translated "eternal" in this verse is the adjective "aionion" it only modifies one word in this verse, "fire." The verse does not say "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance." It only says "eternal fire." The fire existed in heaven before God sent it down out of heaven. The verse does not say the fire was extinguished. The other alternative is that God took it back to heaven.OHC said:
What is the definition of the Greek word translated "perish?" It occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment.OHC said:
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
● Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
● Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
● Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell [hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
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Questions regarding Matthew 25=
1. What are the qualifications for>>>>
A. "everlasting life"
B. "everlasting punishment" according to the context?
2. Why does the parable encompass two clean animals rather than one clean & one unclean?
3. Why is Jesus Christ the Saviour of the whole world speaking to virgins, investors & two clean animals in this one chapter of parable?
1. What are the qualifications for>>>>
A. "everlasting life"
B. "everlasting punishment" according to the context?
2. Why does the parable encompass two clean animals rather than one clean & one unclean?
3. Why is Jesus Christ the Saviour of the whole world speaking to virgins, investors & two clean animals in this one chapter of parable?
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<FL>Dear Camper: Punish kolazo primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;"FineLinen said:
The original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.
Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.<end>
Here are two lexical fallacies you might want to familiarize yourself with.
Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;
Illegitimate totality transfer: assumes that all the uses that occur at a given time apply in any given instance;
Here is the definition of kolasis from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Hebrew lexicons availableIllegitimate totality transfer: assumes that all the uses that occur at a given time apply in any given instance;
κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Kolasis does not have the meaning to curtail, prune, dock, etc as does the the root word.① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
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Matthew 25:46 “And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (CLNT)
We Universalists often comment re Matthew 25:46 that kolasis refers to corrective punishment or chastening.
To give an idea of the basis for that, the following is from a review of the Ilaria Ramelli tome:
“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).”
journalofanalytictheology.com/ja … 30418a/271 2
However can the word in ancient usage also refer to purely non corrective vindictive punishment?
Consider the following comment, for example:
“Ramelli and company indulge in a lot of verbal sleight of hand. The word kolazo/ kolasis is used to indicate punishing retribution as well as correction. Thus its use in Wisdom 19:4 where it describes the punishment of drowning the Egyptians in the Red Sea, and in 2 Maccabees 4:38 where it describes the final vengeance due to Andronicus. We see in Ramelli and others like her ideology triumphing over scholarship.”
blogs.ancientfaith.com/nootherf … nion-mean/
There is also the following alleged quote, not mentioned by Ramelli above, to be considered:
“St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin …all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, “eonian chastening …but a period, not a thousand years.” Or, as some translate the last clause: “but a period of a thousand years only.” He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.”
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html 1
Was J.M. not a believer in annihilation? In lists i’ve seen by Ramelli of those who were universalists, J.M. was not included.
What does her book have to say, if anything, about his beliefs?
For additional reading/comments on this subject:
biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm 2
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2961
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=926
tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-a … r-timoria/ 1
books.google.ca/books?id=D9orAA … ve&f=false 1
books.google.ca/books?id=-PkSAA … ve&f=false
Kolasis=
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Vine's Expository Dictionary=
Punish - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
[ 1,,G2849, kolazo ]
primarily denotes to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;" it is used in the Middle Voice in Acts 4:21; Passive Voice in 2 Peter 2:9, AV, "to be punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a futurative present tense.
We Universalists often comment re Matthew 25:46 that kolasis refers to corrective punishment or chastening.
To give an idea of the basis for that, the following is from a review of the Ilaria Ramelli tome:
“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).”
journalofanalytictheology.com/ja … 30418a/271 2
However can the word in ancient usage also refer to purely non corrective vindictive punishment?
Consider the following comment, for example:
“Ramelli and company indulge in a lot of verbal sleight of hand. The word kolazo/ kolasis is used to indicate punishing retribution as well as correction. Thus its use in Wisdom 19:4 where it describes the punishment of drowning the Egyptians in the Red Sea, and in 2 Maccabees 4:38 where it describes the final vengeance due to Andronicus. We see in Ramelli and others like her ideology triumphing over scholarship.”
blogs.ancientfaith.com/nootherf … nion-mean/
There is also the following alleged quote, not mentioned by Ramelli above, to be considered:
“St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin …all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, “eonian chastening …but a period, not a thousand years.” Or, as some translate the last clause: “but a period of a thousand years only.” He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.”
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html 1
Was J.M. not a believer in annihilation? In lists i’ve seen by Ramelli of those who were universalists, J.M. was not included.
What does her book have to say, if anything, about his beliefs?
For additional reading/comments on this subject:
biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm 2
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2961
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=926
tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-a … r-timoria/ 1
books.google.ca/books?id=D9orAA … ve&f=false 1
books.google.ca/books?id=-PkSAA … ve&f=false
Kolasis=
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Vine's Expository Dictionary=
Punish - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
[ 1,,G2849, kolazo ]
primarily denotes to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;" it is used in the Middle Voice in Acts 4:21; Passive Voice in 2 Peter 2:9, AV, "to be punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a futurative present tense.
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Dr. William Barclay
The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them.
Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it.
Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai).
We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment.
Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.
From The Apostles’ Creed by William Barclay.
The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them.
Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it.
Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai).
We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment.
Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.
From The Apostles’ Creed by William Barclay.
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Yes they certainly do as if constantly repeating something makes it so.FineLinen said:
Ah yes the ubiquitous copy/paste from UR high priestess Ramelli. In a later comment you say "Ramelli and company indulge in a lot of verbal sleight of hand." That is very true, take the comment above. Another UR poster quoted that several times so I was forced to purchase the writing where this quote supposedly occurs, Origen's commentary on the gospel of John. Limited reviews of this book can be viewed at this link.FL said:
Commentary on the Gospel According to John
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, [Song 2:8] so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. [John 4:14]
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain (18), above] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
What does this passage say about "after" or "beyond eternal life" for believers? Absolutely nothing. In (18) the fountain...leaps into eternal life. In (19) Origen speculates that after the fountain in John 4:14 leaps into eternal life perhaps it will also leap into the father. Only the father is said to be greater than life, after or beyond eternal life. (19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain (18), above] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
I can't find a scholar named "some translate." I did not find any copies which read "but a period of a thousand years only."FL said:
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