Why are so many against reformed Theology…

[fhansen]

That’s not what you wrote originally.

But the Apostle Paul does tell us we can know we are children of God.

Yes, nice hyperbolic encouragement that in no way means that everyone who has ever heard those words-whether or not they applied them to themselves-will necessarily be saved. And he and others also soundly counterbalance that sentiment with many warnings and admonitions-to believers.

 

[1Reformedman]

I suspect that most all of Christendom (if you read their official theologies, would agree that God is free to do what he wants. Sure, there are always fringe groups that really don't follow the Bible, but I'm talking the majority of mainline denominations.
If I say it wouldn't be fair of God to do X, it's because of what God says about himself in scripture, for example, that he is no respecter of individuals, but that Jesus died for all.

Jesus died for all because he had to in order for God to save just one. Yet when Jesus was praying to the father he prayed only for the elect, not every human in the world, to be saved and preserved in the world so the gospel could continue to be preached and God's elect saved.

 

[1Reformedman]

You are the one who said Reformed and Ariminan are the same on this issue. That's not even close to true. Calvinists say God did not choose to do anything because of his foreknowledge. In other words, if someone is decreed to damnation, it's not because God knew he would reject salvation (in reformed theology) up against Arminians saying God's decree is not prior to his foreknowledge.

Arminians seemingly dont understand God's foreknowledge. That is why they conflate what the bible says regarding God's sovereign act in election with the idea that they can choose Christ while still in bondage to the sin nature. I was an Arminian for over 20 years and I know how this happens. Traditions and presuppositions. It wasn't until I dropped all of my presuppositions did God begin to open my eyes to the doctrines of grace and I hadn't even heard of John Calvin at that point.

 

[Oseas]

This topic are causing many discussions, many many personal opinions, but one thing is right: What prevails is the Word of God, by the way, God is a title, the Word is God, the invisible God.

Also a "good" exegesis may be wrong. I can say with pretty much certainty, and I think you agree with this, that no one has the perfect understanding of scripture.

Let's see: What you are saying above is in accord the Word of God? Will be? Oh yes, it is in accord Scriptures. Why? It because the Word of God says: 1Cor.13:v.9-10 - 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (or will be annihilated).

2Peter 3:v.7 &11-13 -
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hey, thanks, Hazelelponi. By Reformed, I literally meant Calvinistic. Sorry I didn't clarify!

It just seems to be that what is often described as TULIP seems to have different meanings depending on who is describing or talking about it. I have heard some describe Total Depravity as meaning man's will and nature have no capacity at all to choose or want God prior to conversion, while others seem to say the opposite. Which makes me wonder if perhaps "TULIP" is not as useful a way of describing things as one might think, or if Calvin's actual theology was more nuanced than TULIP.

Honestly, partial definitions don't really cut it, and depending on how a question is asked, the most straightforward answer to the immediate question or situation can only give you a portion of the whole.

Total Depravity, yes, it's about man's inability to chose anything other than sin on the basis of man's - you guessed it - total depravity.

It's not to say that man doesn't choose, just that he will choose sin every time when left to his own will..

There are stages to coming to God, what Catholics call ordo salutis, which means "order of salvation". And every Christian believes that there is an order spelled out in the Bible...to the reformed, election comes first (through Gods will alone) then God works and acts to bring that about.

Reformed believe that election is unconditional, meaning that it's not based in anything that God sees in us, which makes us worthy of his choosing us.

The most common objection to this thought process is that it prevents voluntary choice, and denies the need for Gospel invitation.

The above is an untrue stance -we believe we voluntarily choose, and we absolutely believe Gospel invitation is necessary.

what we believe is that our choices are free, but that God works sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees that our choices come about as He has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and He ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily.

The mistaken assumption underlying this objection is that a choice must be absolutely free (libertarian freewill) (That is not in any way caused or influenced by God) in order for it to remain a genuine human choice, and we disagree with that.

We believe God can work in us and through us and it still be our voluntary choice.

 

[1Reformedman]

Yes, nice hyperbolic encouragement that in no way means that everyone who has ever heard those words-whether or not they applied them to themselves-will necessarily be saved. And he and others also soundly counterbalance that sentiment with many warnings and admonitions-to believers.

Salvation comes only one way!! That is through God's sovereign act in salvation, not ours. One can reject the call to repentance and always will if he's not convicted of his sin upon hearing the word of God. That is the act of the Holy Spirit. When one is convicted he will choose Christ because his will is in bondage to the new nature whereas it was in bondage to the old nature before regeneration wherein he could not please God. Nothing in scripture says that Just because you hear the word you will be saved. What it does say is whosever believes will have eternal life. Whoever does A will obtain B. It says nothing about who will ever believe. Only God knows that answer. All who come to believe had already been given to Jesus before the foundation of the world began- See John 6:37-44

 

[BNR32FAN]

well friend the doctrines of grace were taught by the apostles so any synergistic views will not be consistent with what they taught.

Exactly which doctrine of grace are you referring to?

 

[1Reformedman]

Exactly which doctrine of grace are you referring to?

all 5 coincide.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here's a help note. Go to the Greek in John 15 and learn how the grammar works instead of listening to those who don't know it.

What differences do the Greek translations make exactly?

 

[tdidymas]

I guess in the flurry of "alerts" I overlooked yours. I don't bother with "Threads" here, just "alerts".



I Agree with him (Since it's God's WORD), but don't seek to totally understand what he's saying. The Bible CONSTANTLY talks of "OUR responsibilities". Reformed theology teaches that we don't have any.

What's being discussed is the "Reformed Paradigm", which, regardless of Reformed claims to the contrary, states that EVERYTHING is arbitrary - based on whether or not God "Without any moderating considerations", "Elects us" ("U") - i.e. Rom 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

And: Rom 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth".

That's Arbitrary. Paul's answer is "unsatisfying": Rom 9:20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

i.e. It is what it is - deal with it.

And obviously, regardless of Reformed Theological weasel words, the "DIE WAS CAST" when Election occurred arbitrarily Thousands of years ago, and man had ZERO personal options at that point, no choices.

FANTASTIC!!! for the "Elect", and inconceivably horrendous, and totally hopeless for those Born only to be damned.

Since you don't seek to understand what Paul is saying, you are choosing to be in darkness concerning this matter. It tells me that your mind is closed, not open, and it makes me think of the lost who can't understand the spiritual nature of the gospel (Rom. 8:7) because their minds are closed. They stubbornly refuse to understand it.

So then, the clear speech of Paul in the passage you quote is unsatisfying to you, not because there is any inherent wrong in it, but because you sit in judgment of God (the God described in Rom. 9). You see the clear description of the idea that Paul is conveying, and you disagree with it. Therefore it's my contention that you are indeed in disagreement with Paul in this matter.

But to answer your "unsatisfying" objection, why would you pine away for those "totally hopeless" people born only to be damned? Is it because you think you might be one of them? Or is it because there is a particular one that you want to be saved, and there is no evidence of it?

In fact, all those people don't feel hopeless nor depressed. They are perfectly happy (in their own way) to remain as is. The fact that they don't believe they will be damned is incidental to them. Their happiness doesn't depend on what will happen to them after death. Their personal autonomy is the most precious thing to them, and they call it "freedom," and have no inkling or concern that the Bible calls it "bondage."

And if God patiently endures the depravity of their behavior, since they don't appreciate what God has done for them enough to give thanks, what is it to you that God decides to judge them as their just due? Unless, of course, you hate such a God and wouldn't spend eternity with Him.

Just because you don't understand God, His ways and thoughts being higher than yours, doesn't give you the right to judge what He might do, whether it seems right to you or not, even if it be "unsatisfying" to you in your personal assessment. So, like the one-talent man, you can be cynical toward the God who revealed Himself in the writings of Paul (and specifically Rom. 9), or you can simply receive what He says there, and get to know and love the God who saved you from a hopeless plight.
TD

 

[BNR32FAN]

all 5 coincide.

Can you name them please?

 

[fhansen]

Salvation comes only one way!! That is through God's sovereign act in salvation, not ours. One can reject the call to repentance and always will if he's not convicted of his sin upon hearing the word of God. That is the act of the Holy Spirit. When one is convicted he will choose Christ because his will is in bondage to the new nature whereas it was in bondage to the old nature before regeneration wherein he could not please God. Nothing in scripture says that Just because you hear the word you will be saved. What it does say is whosever believes will have eternal life. Whoever does A will obtain B. It says nothing about who will ever believe. Only God knows that answer. All who come to believe had already been given to Jesus before the foundation of the world began- See John 6:37-44

From Eden until this day man's will is never completely in bondage to God, until he finally comes to that point by his choices in life, to where he authentically loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. Obedience then flows naturally, of its own accord. And we begin that process now, and He continues to be patient with us in working out our salvation as we cooperate with His grace. No fruit translates to no salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

all 5 coincide.

I’m assuming your referring to Calvin’s TULIP doctrines?

So according to Calvin’s doctrines of total depravity and unconditional grace man is completely incapable of repentance and believing and man is also incapable of influencing God’s decision in any way to elect him so that he may be capable of repentance and believing. The whole problem with Calvin’s errors are that they make God’s judgement of the unelected unjust by implying that God is judging and punishing the unelected in the lake of fire for all eternity for failing to meet expectations that they are incapable of meeting. That is unjust punishment my friend. Before you start pointing out that everyone deserves punishment let me go ahead and say that, yes they deserve punishment because God has made a way for EVERYONE to be saved. A person cannot deserve to be punished for for failure to meet impossible expectations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Arminians seemingly dont understand God's foreknowledge. That is why they conflate what the bible says regarding God's sovereign act in election with the idea that they can choose Christ while still in bondage to the sin nature. I was an Arminian for over 20 years and I know how this happens. Traditions and presuppositions. It wasn't until I dropped all of my presuppositions did God begin to open my eyes to the doctrines of grace and I hadn't even heard of John Calvin at that point.

How can a Christian not know about John Calvin for 20 years? I’m guessing you didn’t study much back then?

 

[bling]

No, we don't have a reason to boast even if we dont know why God chose who he determined to save. Why boast in salvation or the election thereof when you don't deserve it. The bible is very clear that we are not to boast of self but instead we are to boast only in the LORD ONLY and that is what those who follow reformed theology do. We give God all of the glory and take none of it for ourselves because without Him we are nothing and our deeds are as filthy rags. God's will is done on earth as it has already been done in heaven and mankind can't thwart the will of God..

There is either some reason or no reason (arbitrary), you cannot have it both ways is all I am saying and if it is not arbitrary than there is a reason for you over others and even not knowing the reason you can boast for having the unknown reason.

 

[Halbhh]

Sproul is fun, and impressive. ( I say without watching the OP video, as I've seen a lot of his videos)

Anyone watching Sproul for a half hour or more (I've seen at this point about 20 hours I guess) would if they didn't have anything else to go on assume his church would have to be great. No doubt it is in many ways. Of course we do have else to go on -- the very same Word Sproul did so well at bringing to life in many lectures, but we have the entirety so that we could get to parts -- additional parts of scripture -- that of course ought to make us at least question some of the 5-point, TULIP, for instance as.......questionable. Some of them. (Not all)

Now, I was never placing my reliance or faith in a doctrine or a denomination.

Not ever.

Right?

Doctrine doesn't save.

Christ saves.

So, really, ultimately, the various denominational different doctrines -- they are none of much importance then, finally.

Who could disagree?

One could gain from the good stuff Sproul offers without having to buy all the questionable theories from TULIP or such, of course. If one reads in the scriptures full books, they won't have great gains from Sproul, but something more like enjoyment only. But I did enjoy Sproul, and will some more, as we are using his short lectures on the OT currently, at whim, week to week. They are just fun, and informative about background things.

You understand the doctrines of Grace already deeply well if you merely listen and hear.

That's all that is needed. Not some doctrinal set of ideas.

Just listen to Ephesians chapter 2, and you are there.

You don't need men to mediate that for you.

But I do smile when we start another Sproul video.

Good Day, All

This Ligonier conference from 2015 in the QA session, attempts to answer this question.

.. “Once you understand the doctrines of grace, It’s like your breathing heavens air”

Anyone watching Sproul for a half hour or more (I've seen at this point about 20 hours I guess) would if they didn't have anything else to go on assume his church would have to be great. Of course we do have else to go on, namely the very same Word Sproul did so well at bringing to life in many lectures, but we have the entirety so that we could get to parts that of course could bring up some other aspect of the classic ideas in TULIP of instance as.......questionable. Some of them. (Not all)

Now, I was never placing my reliance or faith in a doctrine or a denomination.

Not ever.

Right?

So, it is not really of much importance then, finally. One could gain from the good stuff Sproul offers without having to buy all the theories from TULIP or such, of course. If one reads in the scriptures full books, they won't even have great gains from Sproul, but something more like en



In Him,

Bill

 

[1Reformedman]

What differences do the Greek translations make exactly?

ok for instance, in the English we see the word hell used often in the NT and when folks see that, and from erroneous traditions from behind the pulpit, hear the term they often think of the lake of fire. However, in the Greek, the lake of fire is never referred to as what hell means in the greek. In the greek Hell is never the lake of fire but refers to either the place the damned souls reside before judgment but after physical death (aka Hades) or it can also mean Grave where the body returns to the ground after physical death. Context is key as to which is being referred. The lake of fire in the Greek is Limnene tou pryos, not Hades or the grave.

So when we see verses that talk about someone being sent to hell that is most often referring to hades. Even in hades, it seems the separation is agonizing and torturous but this is not a physical agony or torture because the judgment has not yet been rendered and even then the torture and agony is about the eternal separation from God and his kind provisions, not some idea that God is going to torture those in the lake of fire. Torturing is evil and God can't be tempted with evil. Being separated from God and his common grace, let alone saving grace, is the torture and agony.

 

[Hazelelponi]

implying that God is judging and punishing the unelected in the lake of fire for all eternity for failing to meet [impossible] expectations

It's not God's fault you love sin so much when He allows you to follow your own desires..

Is it the parents fault if their kid turns out to be a bad apple after providing them a good home with good examples?

Plenty of people with perfectly normal childhoods grow up and get hooked on drugs, in prison, rapists or murderers, drunks or otherwise messed up adults - the nice guy next door who turns out to be some psychopath...

Should we hold then the parents to account, instead of him?

Or are we just in saying the man should be punished for his own actions - that he freely made?

If it's just in saying those guilty should be punished - the only thing that seems unjust would be that God saves anyone...

And that is where we see God's mercy.. Because God is both just and merciful, one cannot be separated from the other..

but to pretend Hes not also the Sovereign over creation, is to make Him no God at all..

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Arbitrary means to decide to do something without reason. God has a reason for everything he does to include saving whom he saves and it is predicated upon the whole counsel of HIS will and his sovereign choice to save any of his creation he chooses. We don't have to know why God chose who he did. We just have to TRUST HIM that if we are saved he chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world began. His will has already been done in heaven and it will be done one earth in the same manner (according to the sovereign will of God).Jesus said it very clearly "I chose you you did not choose Me". I think the problem you have is that you have not yet accurately come to understand your place as a created one.

SO then obviously the "U" in Reformed Theology is not true at all, and God's choice is conditional.

 

[1Reformedman]

There is either some reason or no reason (arbitrary), you cannot have it both ways is all I am saying and if it is not arbitrary than there is a reason for you over others and even not knowing the reason you can boast for having the unknown reason.

God never does anything without a reason. IF he did then yes he would be arbitrary. But God isnt arbitrary in anything he does. Jeremiah 29:11-13 debunks that idea. The problem seems to be that some just can't trust God for what he says in his word. It seems they need to be able to decipher something he may not want us to know right now. Instead of having to know how God does things and why has Ever occurred to you why we look through a glass darkly now but then face to face? God does not have to explain every detail as to what he does or how he does it and because his thoughts are higher than ours and we cant understand some of them right now.