Why are so many against reformed Theology…

[fhansen]

So man is the horse and God is the cart?

It means that we can't know with 100% certainty who the elect are to begin with. That's God's province.

 

[redleghunter]

For all practical purposes they are exactly the same.

A chance to exegete. Let me know what’s going on here:

Acts 2: NASB

22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

 

[1Reformedman]

Not necessarily. Just about every Christian would say that He is...but not everyone proceeds from that affirmation to believing that he really is.



I should ask for a more precise explanation of what you have in mind when you say that, but it looks like you are mistaken.

When he stated "Reformed claim God meticulously controls everything in creation, down to the most base evil actions" I think he was talking about double predestination, which Romans 9:22 and other verses do seem to support. However, this fellow believer may not have a good understanding of that concept.

 

[redleghunter]

Uh...not. why would we be told to pray for his will to be done on earth if it was already being done all the time?

Why do we pray for our daily bread when Jesus said not to worry about such things that God will provide what we need?

Here’s why. Jesus said “pray in this way.”

 

[1Reformedman]

Salvation is totally by grace with humans doing nothing: noble, honorable, deserving, worthy to obtain salvation, but that does not mean the person “dead” in sin (by Christ’s definition of “dead’ in His uses to describe the prodigal son Luke 15) cannot or did not “do” something. In the likeness of the prodigal son who did nothing “worthy, honorable or noble”, the sinner while in a dead state is brought to his senses by his own bad choices and makes an autonomous free will choice to either hang in there, be a good soldier of satan, pay the piper and take the punishment he fully deserves or wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy while God is still his enemy, with just the willingness for selfish reasons to humbly accept pure undeserved charity, but he certainly is not changing sides at this time. By the sinner just willingness to humbly accept pure charity, God can thus shower the sinner with unbelievable huge gifts, including eternal life, so it is all God doing it. Could the prodigal son boast of anything great he did? How can the beggar correctly desiring pure sacrificial charity “boast” about being given charity?



There has been lots of discussion on election being “arbitrary” and even though the reformist does not “know” why God chooses one over the other they seem to be saying: “It is not arbitrary”, but if it is not “arbitrary” than there has to be a reason even if it God’s reason. So, if I have been elected for some Godly reason over others, I still would have a reason to boast. Some have said: “we do not know if we have been elected” so we can’t boast, but that would mean we cannot know if we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, which I can know?

If the autonomous free will choice all mature adults get to make is not there than there is no reason for our time on this messed up world. Given the free will objective to Love like God Loves, explains everything God did, is doing, allowed and is allowing to happen including: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, Adam and Eve sinning, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death and our being able to sin.

You have to go from a very logical reason to a totally illogical reason.

No, we don't have a reason to boast even if we dont know why God chose who he determined to save. Why boast in salvation or the election thereof when you don't deserve it. The bible is very clear that we are not to boast of self but instead we are to boast only in the LORD ONLY and that is what those who follow reformed theology do. We give God all of the glory and take none of it for ourselves because without Him we are nothing and our deeds are as filthy rags. God's will is done on earth as it has already been done in heaven and mankind can't thwart the will of God..

 

[1Reformedman]

No problem bro. Been on these threads a lot defending Biblical doctrines which they doctrines of Grace are. I was responding to the last portion of what the other posted posited. I should have highlighted it.

I'm brand new here, just a few days old. So I'm still learning who's who here. Thanks and have a phantasmagorical day filled with God's loving-kindness.

 

[1Reformedman]

Why do we pray for our daily bread when Jesus said not to worry about such things that God will provide what we need?

Here’s why. Jesus said “pray in this way.”

Why pray at all except for the command to do so?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day, All

This Ligonier conference from 2015 in the QA session, attempts to answer this question.

.. “Once you understand the doctrines of grace, It’s like your breathing heavens air”

In Him,

Bill

I had to re-evaluate my beliefs when I was a reformed believer and I was challenged to interpret John 15:1-10 in support of eternal security. Long story short, I couldn’t do it without ignoring the implications of the message. So then I had to go back and re-evaluate all the scriptures that I thought supported eternal security and I learned that they can also be interpreted in a way that doesn’t support it. Reading the early church writings also provided some incite to what the early church taught and contradicted much of what the reformed churches teach. So I had to accept the overwhelming evidence against reformed theology. There’s just no evidence in the early church writings of reformed theology being taught before 1600AD. Now I will say that Augustine did appear to agree with some aspects of reformed theology but he also openly admitted to making many mistakes in his early writings, and unfortunately he didn’t specify exactly what his errors were so I had to disregard his earlier works.

 

[redleghunter]

It would seem that the op invites those who are against Reformed theology to explain why they are against it. Yet we see the same-o same-o that those who are against Reform theology MISREPRESENT it, don't know Greek, are misinformed, are illogical, etc., etc.

I am against Reformed theology, Calvinism, TULIP- because it makes man into a ZERO, an AUTOMATON, a ROBOT.
And it makes God into a tyrant, and the choices are indeed ARBITRARY of who burns and who lives.

Jesus loves the little children
Some of all types of all the children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white
Some are precious in His sight
Jesus loves some of the children of the world

How do you handle the following verses. Bolded most relevant.

Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

 

[redleghunter]

Why pray at all except for the command to do so?

Was making a point according to the post I was responding to.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You have a your own systematic and probably don’t know it.

Why wouldn't I know it?? I'm a "Calvinist leaning Eclectic".

 

[redleghunter]

The entire biblical narrative assumes Free Will is real. You have God complaining about man's sin, regretting he created us, and in reformed theology he caused what he is complaining about.

Man’s choices are in accordance with whom or Whom he is in bondage to.

That is the Biblical narrative and explained well by the Apostle Paul in Romans 6.

 

[redleghunter]

Why wouldn't I know it?? I'm a "Calvinist leaning Eclectic".

It seems from your profile you are a Charismatic which puts your personal revelations on par with Holy Scriptures.

 

[redleghunter]

It means that we can't know with 100% certainty who the elect are to begin with. That's God's province.

That’s not what you wrote originally.

But the Apostle Paul does tell us we can know we are children of God.

 

[1Reformedman]

I had to re-evaluate my beliefs when I was a reformed believer and I was challenged to interpret John 15:1-10 in support of eternal security. Long story short, I couldn’t do it without ignoring the implications of the message. So then I had to go back and re-evaluate all the scriptures that I thought supported eternal security and I learned that they can also be interpreted in a way that doesn’t support it. Reading the early church writings also provided some incite to what the early church taught and contradicted much of what the reformed churches teach. So I had to accept the overwhelming evidence against reformed theology. There’s just no evidence in the early church writings of reformed theology being taught before 1600AD. Now I will say that Augustine did appear to agree with some aspects of reformed theology but he also openly admitted to making many mistakes in his early writings, and unfortunately he didn’t specify exactly what his errors were so I had to disregard his earlier works.

well friend the doctrines of grace were taught by the apostles so any synergistic views will not be consistent with what they taught.

 

[1Reformedman]

I had to re-evaluate my beliefs when I was a reformed believer and I was challenged to interpret John 15:1-10 in support of eternal security. Long story short, I couldn’t do it without ignoring the implications of the message. So then I had to go back and re-evaluate all the scriptures that I thought supported eternal security and I learned that they can also be interpreted in a way that doesn’t support it. Reading the early church writings also provided some incite to what the early church taught and contradicted much of what the reformed churches teach. So I had to accept the overwhelming evidence against reformed theology. There’s just no evidence in the early church writings of reformed theology being taught before 1600AD. Now I will say that Augustine did appear to agree with some aspects of reformed theology but he also openly admitted to making many mistakes in his early writings, and unfortunately he didn’t specify exactly what his errors were so I had to disregard his earlier works.

Here's a help note. Go to the Greek in John 15 and learn how the grammar works instead of listening to those who don't know it.

 

[98cwitr]

I'm not "AGAINST" reformed theology, ans much as I simply know that it's "ONLY" theology, and not God's WORD.

It's a "Theological OPINION" based on its own collection of "Proof texts", and "Fleshed out" academically as a "Systematic" presentation.

There's no question BIBLICALLY, that "Salvation" (Becoming Born again) BEGINS with God "moving first" to draw humans to Christ - REINFORCED BY Romans 9, John 6:44.

However "Reformed Theology" essentially ELIMINATES any human responsibility whatsoever. If one is "Elect" (L), then he has no choice BUT to become a Christian (I), and no choice BUT (P) to persevere until death.

Antithetically, if one is NOT Elect", the're nothing but firewood with no choice whatsoever about anything. It's a nice, clean precise systematic with no "hanging ends". You IS, or you Ain't - period.

THOUSANDS of years ago, before creation, my new Great Grand Daughter, My Grand Daughter, my Daughter, and I were arbitrarily (U) labeled "Elect", or "Firewood", and NONE OF US have any say in the matter. Since I'm a Christian, obviously I won an "E", and became Christian. There's no need to pray for any of the others, since their FATE has already been sealed (L).

I don't know, however, how totally inflexible Father actually is -

So before your granddaughter was born, God did not know whether she would wind up in heaven or hell?

 

[1Reformedman]

So before your granddaughter was born, God did not know whether she would wind up in heaven or hell?

Arbitrary means to decide to do something without reason. God has a reason for everything he does to include saving whom he saves and it is predicated upon the whole counsel of HIS will and his sovereign choice to save any of his creation he chooses. We dont have to know why God chose who he did we just have to know that if we are saved he chose us. Jesu said it very clearly I chose you you did not choose Me. I think the problem you have is that you have not yet accurately come to understand your place as a created one.

 

[renniks]

No, but it is critical to understanding Reformed theology (our topic). What it means in this case is that Reformed theology accepts that God is God, that that he is the "Almighty" (to use a word that Christians of all denominations use), and that his decisions are his to make. It is common, however, to read hear Christians representing other branches of Christianity say that it wouldn't be fair of God to do (or not to do) X, wouldn't be reasonable, wouldn't be just, etc. etc. to have made some decision or expect something of us...so long as WE, acting from our own little brains, do not approve.

I suspect that most all of Christendom (if you read their official theologies, would agree that God is free to do what he wants. Sure, there are always fringe groups that really don't follow the Bible, but I'm talking the majority of mainline denominations.
If I say it wouldn't be fair of God to do X, it's because of what God says about himself in scripture, for example, that he is no respecter of individuals, but that Jesus died for all.

 

[1Reformedman]

I'm not "AGAINST" reformed theology, ans much as I simply know that it's "ONLY" theology, and not God's WORD.

It's a "Theological OPINION" based on its own collection of "Proof texts", and "Fleshed out" academically as a "Systematic" presentation.

There's no question BIBLICALLY, that "Salvation" (Becoming Born again) BEGINS with God "moving first" to draw humans to Christ - REINFORCED BY Romans 9, John 6:44.

However "Reformed Theology" essentially ELIMINATES any human responsibility whatsoever. If one is "Elect" (L), then he has no choice BUT to become a Christian (I), and no choice BUT (P) to persevere until death.

Antithetically, if one is NOT Elect", the're nothing but firewood with no choice whatsoever about anything. It's a nice, clean precise systematic with no "hanging ends". You IS, or you Ain't - period.

THOUSANDS of years ago, before creation, my new Great Grand Daughter, My Grand Daughter, my Daughter, and I were arbitrarily (U) labeled "Elect", or "Firewood", and NONE OF US have any say in the matter. Since I'm a Christian, obviously I won an "E", and became Christian. There's no need to pray for any of the others, since their FATE has already been sealed (L).

I don't know, however, how totally inflexible Father actually is -

Arbitrary means to decide to do something without reason. God has a reason for everything he does to include saving whom he saves and it is predicated upon the whole counsel of HIS will and his sovereign choice to save any of his creation he chooses. We don't have to know why God chose who he did. We just have to TRUST HIM that if we are saved he chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world began. His will has already been done in heaven and it will be done one earth in the same manner (according to the sovereign will of God).Jesus said it very clearly "I chose you you did not choose Me". I think the problem you have is that you have not yet accurately come to understand your place as a created one.

 

[renniks]

So you believe that Reformed theology, the scriptures and Arminian theology all present a schizophrenic picture of God?

Or is it that you simply cannot let Reformed Christians speak for themselves and defend against what they say but instead prefer to beat a straw man of your own creation?

You are the one who said Reformed and Ariminan are the same on this issue. That's not even close to true. Calvinists say God did not choose to do anything because of his foreknowledge. In other words, if someone is decreed to damnation, it's not because God knew he would reject salvation (in reformed theology) up against Arminians saying God's decree is not prior to his foreknowledge.