Why are so many against reformed Theology…

[Tra Phull]

all

 

[His student]

How can he not approve of what he causes? If I control your actions, it would be pretty schizophrenic of me to say I don't approve of what you do.

According to Reformed theology - God decrees that what He chooses to allow to take place by the choices made by men out of their own wills will actually take place.

But, according to Reformed theology, and the scriptures themselves, He does not author those choices nor force them on men or angels nor does He necessarily approve of them in and of themselves.

In this respect - so called Reformed theology is no different than so called Arminian theology.

 

[tdidymas]

Wow... So we are to be more loving than God? And as far as for the common Grace argument.. gee willikers Batman, I don't care if my loved ones go to hell as long as they got to experience fresh cucumbers!

Your exaggerations don't prove anything.
"We love because He first loved us" - 1 Jn. 4, therefore we cannot love more than God does. Perhaps you didn't get this: "God causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good..." Mat. 5. So you came to a false conclusion.

Why not leave the judgment up to God, and the decision of who He wants to save, rather than judging Him based on who you want to save? If God really does discriminate who He decides to save, then you stand in judgment of Him. It is not right for us to judge the scripture to say "it ought to mean this..." Rather, the scripture judges us, and will judge us, whether we agree with it or not.

It sounds to me like if you knew that God wasn't going to save a certain person, that you would not care to love that person. This seems to be the meaning of your "gee willikers" statement. God loves people to some extent, even though He decides not to save them. It's called "common grace." But He doesn't love everyone the same, as is obvious by the fact that some He saves and some He will condemn. How about unconditionally loving even those people who will not be saved? God does that, so if we want to love others with the God-kind of love, we'll do the same.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

For all practical purposes they are exactly the same.

No, they are not. Determinism has God performing everything in heaven and earth, including morally evil acts. Reformed Theology does not teach that. People do God's will by the working of God in them, but those who do evil are working their own works. Ultimately God is in control of circumstances, which makes Him sovereign, but unbelieving man is under control of the evil one. So, God is wise enough to know how to control circumstances beyond the evil wills of the devil and his children. This is a far cry from determinism.
TD

 

[ripple the car]

I have Reformed friends on here, and there are Reformed posters on CF who I like, and admire, and who have great manners, and debate well.

Having said that.

I have noticed that when asking serious questions about Reformed theology, and raising what I feel are valid points, the response is often "but that's not Reformed theology" / "Reformed theology doesn't teach that", and the explainations given as to what Reformed theology actually teaches sound more like a mash up of TULIP and classic Arminianism, or sound very close to what the Catholic Church teaches about God's and man's will in salvation, which is weird, because Calvin literally came right out of the Catholic Church.

And if he didn't have serious issues with the Church's stances on salvation, human will, God's will, election, man's cooperation with God's will, and grace, he likely wouldn't have done what he did, and wrote a whole book and launched a whole career on his own.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Sadly, "reformed" is often just a substitute for "perverted".

 

[zoidar]

I think you are conflating the idea that God is obligated to love with his loving his children. God isnt obligated to do anything to include save a single person. But God is clear that he chose us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world began. Please allow me to remind you that God's will is done on earth as it has already been done in heaven.

It's not what I believe God is obligated to, but what I expect from someone who's being is love.

 

[zoidar]

There is no law or principle that demands God love everyone the equally. In the scripture it says that God loves some and hates others. It behooves us to "make our calling and election sure" as the apostle Peter exhorts us to do.

I didn't say that there is a law or principle that says God has to love everyone, but this is what I expect from a being that is love.

God is not obligated to be interested in saving everyone. In fact, He is not obligated to save anyone at all. Neither is God unjust if He doesn't save anyone. Since the wages of sin is death, it actually is not exactly just that God saves anyone at all. This is why it is called mercy and grace. If God has to save everyone equally, then mercy is not mercy at all, because mercy is exceptional and extraordinary to justice. And if God wants to display His justice to some of the wicked, He is not going to be interested in saving them, even though He says that He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked.

Again it's not what God is obligated to do, but what I expect from a being that is love. God has the right to save or not to save whoever He chooses, but if God is love, I believe His intention must be the same for every person. What mercy and grace is, is something to be discussed.

In Rev. it says that Jesus' blood purchased "men from every tribe, tongue, and nation." It means that His blood did not purchase everyone.

That would have to be discussed.

Will you hate God on a list of "maybes"? Obviously, we don't know who God has chosen for salvation, that's why our love for people has to be unconditional, like God's love: "He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good..." We assume that God loves them and intends to save them; this is the reason why we love people regardless of what they do or say. Jesus loved Judas the same as the other disciples, in the natural sense, even though He knew Judas was his betrayer.

But from reformed theology we know that God is leaving out people. I have a problem with that, even God isn't obligated to love everyone, this is what I expect of a being that is love.

We have another problem here in the reformed theology, that we have to make a distinction between God loving people in a natural sense or in an electing sense. I feel it's wrong to make that destinction since God is love.

So then, why not love God based on gratefulness of what He has done for you? "We love because He first loved us." If we love God only because we think He is going to save those who we judge as worthy of salvation, then our love would lack humility, and wouldn't be the God-kind of love. Rather than judging God for not saving who you want, instead respect God for what He has done for you, and count it a privilege you don't deserve.
TD

I never said nor believe God will love those worthy of salvation, then we would all be dead. My love for God stems from two things, He loved me enough to send His Son to the cross for me, to save me, and that God loves everyone with the same passionate love. How can I not love God?

 

[Dave L]

If Reformed theology defines God accurately, most people hate God passionately and worship idols in his name.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I have Reformed friends on here, and there are Reformed posters on CF who I like, and admire, and who have great manners, and debate well.

Having said that.

I have noticed that when asking serious questions about Reformed theology, and raising what I feel are valid points, the response is often "but that's not Reformed theology" / "Reformed theology doesn't teach that", and the explainations given as to what Reformed theology actually teaches sound more like a mash up of TULIP and classic Arminianism, or sound very close to what the Catholic Church teaches about God's and man's will in salvation, which is weird, because Calvin literally came right out of the Catholic Church.

And if he didn't have serious issues with the Church's stances on salvation, human will, God's will, election, man's cooperation with God's will, and grace, he likely wouldn't have done what he did, and wrote a whole book and launched a whole career on his own.

Best I can explain.

but I think your issue is partly because reformed theology isn't just "Calvinism", people use the term Calvinist or Calvinism, but reformed is far more accurate as Calvin is just a man whose teachings are respected - but certainly he's not the only one who influenced the reformers - reformers who were influences in their own right regardless of who influenced them.

Another is that if your talking to a Lutheran, which is also a reformed theology, your going to get a theology far closer to Catholicism than even Calvin believed in, and certainly far closer than people taught the farther you get away from the early reformation period itself..

My husband always says, Luther didn't go far enough away from Catholicism. (his opinion)

And Im going to guess that if your talking to a reformed Baptist, your going to get different answers in some areas, than if your talking to a Primitive Baptist, both of whom are "Calvinistic" churches..

Calvinistic and reformed doctrines comes in degrees of agreement and disagreement with those preachers who may have influenced them... and so in some areas you will see varying degrees of agreement and disagreement with what you see and consider reformed.

As a general rule, reformed just means influenced doctrinally by those pastors who were part of, and came out of, the reformation movement which began when Luther first felt the need to correct, and then later leave, Catholicism...

Calvin, for some reason is just the most famous and the easiest to use to distinguish itself from doctrines that sprung from Wesleyan influences.. But reformed churches have a lot in common with many reformation pastors and thoughts..

So Calvinism, as a whole, is just a name coming in many degrees - so your likely to get many different answers.. and reformed is an even wider an umbrella term than that.

But I assume this is a good place to ask, if you wanted the answer.

But be warned, not even Calvinists agree with Calvin on everything. He is, in the end, just a man...

 

[zoidar]

If Reformed theology defines God accurately, most people hate God passionately and worship idols in his name.

Sorry, but I think that was an absurd claim.

 

[renniks]

But, according to Reformed theology, and the scriptures themselves, He does not author those choices nor force them on men or angels nor does He necessarily approve of them in and of themselves.

Lol, like I said ... schizophrenic.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry, but I think that was a ridiculous claim.

Not really. If the Reformed were right, and people find their definition of God appalling, they hate God and have only idols to worship.

 

[zoidar]

Not really. If the Reformed were right, and people find their definition of God appalling, they hate God and have only idols to worship.

Do you believe you hate God and worship idols if Arminians are right about God?

 

[renniks]

sounds to me like if you knew that God wasn't going to save a certain person, that you would not care to love that person. This seems to be the meaning of your "gee willikers" statement. God loves people to some extent, even though He decides not to save them. It's called "common grace." But He doesn't love everyone the same, as is obvious by the fact that some He saves and some He will condemn. How about unconditionally loving even those people who will not be saved? God does that, so if we want to love others with the God-kind of love, we'll do the same.

God loves all...more than I ever could imagine. He loves all the same, and isn't willing that any perish without accepting him.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Sorry, but I think that was a ridiculous claim.

Ah not really. Look at the hatred of reformed doctrines - I'm talking vehement hatred from an awful lot of people. They hate it so much they can take a thread on sunshine and turn it into a diatribe against reformed theology.

If (if being key here) reformed theology is correct, then it's not the theology they hate, but rather God Himself..

 

[Dave L]

Do you believe you hate God and worship idols if Arminians are right about God?

I hate their description of God. Free will turns God into a bully who threatens hell for not "saying uncle" (jumping through the hoops). And also bribes people to like him with promises of everlasting pleasure.

 

[zoidar]

Ah not really. Look at the hatred of reformed doctrines - I'm talking vehement hatred from an awful lot of people. They hate it so much they can take a thread on sunshine and turn it into a diatribe against reformed theology.

If (if being key here) reformed theology is correct, then it's not the theology they hate, but rather God Himself..

Does this description really fit most non reformed Christians?

I think you are on "dangerous ground" here, are you saying if Arminians are right you hate God?

From my understanding most Christians who doesn't like reformed faith, doesn't dislike it because of hate, but because it makes them sad.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Does this description really fit most non reformed Christians?

I think you are on "dangerous ground" here, are you saying if Arminians are right you hate God?

No.. I don't think it's a description that fits most non-reformed Christians..

but it does fit some..

If I "hated" Arminian doctrine then yes, I could say the same about me.. but I don't hate the doctrine.

Honestly very few doctrines I've run into make me sick to my stomach.. but there are a couple.. and if those are right then I'm likewise an enemy of God, and hate Him..

I feel about Catholicism the exact same way I feel about Islam, the doctrine literally makes me feel sick.. so if the Catholics are right? then yes, you could say the same thing about me..

 

[zoidar]

I feel about Catholicism the exact same way I feel about Islam, the doctrine literally makes me feel sick.. so if the Catholics are right? then yes, you could say the same thing about me..

Ok, that's a strong statement. Still Catholics are your brothers and sisters, right?

From my understanding most Christians who doesn't like reformed faith, doesn't dislike it because of hate, but because it makes them sad.