Why are most Christians so accepting of magic

I do believe the Bible but not verses out of context. I do my best to apply hermeneutics and interpret scripture with scripture. Difficult passages must be interpreted in light of clear ones and the over all message is that God's grace covers all things.

And I have no reason to disbelieve you

What do you say about the thorn in the flesh? I'm honestly very curious

1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2).

This one could easily mean that we are no longer under sin's curse...no longer slaves to sin. Old habits remain but we can break free with God's help...again understand that His grace is enough

I am trying to comment on more but the KJV language is interesting lol

doctorwho29 said:

I do believe the Bible but not verses out of context. I do my best to apply hermeneutics and interpret scripture with scripture. Difficult passages must be interpreted in light of clear ones and the over all message is that God's grace covers all things.

And I have no reason to disbelieve you

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I don't believe the verses say anything different than what they say because of the context. If you believe otherwise, then make your case.

I mean, were you already aware of these verses and you have a belief already about them based on what the context says already? Or is your approach one that has to go in and change what these verses say plainly because you don't like them in what they say?

doctorwho29 said:

I am trying to comment on more but the KJV language is interesting lol

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I would recommend picking up a Defined King James Bible then.



You can get a cheap vinyl one here:

The Defined King James Bible - Medium Print (Black, Vinyl, Black Letter)

Or you can get the leather, thumb indexed more expensive version here:

Defined King James Large Print Text Bible: BFT LBURX, KJV (#40302) - BTP

The Defined King James gives you a definition using older dictionaries on some of the older outdated words from the 1600's.

Note: You can click on the image below to zoom in.


I say this because I believe the King James Bible is the pure Word of God for today and it is far more trustworthy than Modern Translations. If you are interested, here are 30 reasons why I believe the King James Bible is the Pure Word of God for today.

30 Reasons why the KJV is the Divine and Pure Word of God for Today (Update: KJVO Posters Only)

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Yeah you know it wasn't originally even in English right? lol Some translations are off base but many are just fine...like the NIV.

And it's not like I have the entire Bible committed to memory. I am simply reacting to what you post. However I do know that the over all message is "once saved always saved" and "the cross covers all"

I mean Paul did seem to struggle with sin even while saved. Thorn in the flesh and all that. Peter outright tells God no twice in the book of Acts and that's pretty sinful. Also you say Paul was talking about his previous life but the verse "I know what is good but do evil anyway" is in the present tense

doctorwho29 said:

1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2).

This one could easily mean that we are no longer under sin's curse...no longer slaves to sin. Old habits remain but we can break free with God's help...again understand that His grace is enough

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Yeah, I do not get that impression when I read it.
Where does it say that?

Let's look at the context:


So it mentions walking in certain sins here verse 3 in our old life.
Verse 2 talks about how we should no longer live the rest of our time (here on Earth obviously) in the flesh of the lusts of men, but to the will of God. There is no other way to read this. If a believer is occasionally committing grievous or mortal sin, they are no longer living to the will of God but they are still living to the lusts of the flesh in the rest of their time while they are alive.

See, this is the problem with your approach here. You are not reading and believing the text, but you are simply trying to impress your own beliefs upon it based on an outside belief you already have.

I am reading and believing the text. I am simply looking at it through the lens of what actually makes sense. It is simply not possible to be entirely sin free. It's just not possible. If you want to tell me about your life and why you believe you are perfect, I'm all ears. I'm downright curious actually

Again I ask you to address the thorn in the flesh or his use of the present tense in verses about sin or Peter arguing with God. Stop ignoring these uncomfortable passages.

doctorwho29 said:

Yeah you know it wasn't originally even in English right? lol Some translations are off base but many are just fine...like the NIV.

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Read the thread I posted, and make your own decision.
I posted lots of verses for the believer to consider.

And it's not like I have the entire Bible committed to memory. I am simply reacting to what you post. However I do know that the over all message is "once saved always saved" and "the cross covers all"

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Which again are beliefs that are not biblical but they are pushed by most evangelical Sola Scriptura preachers today.

I am also evangelical and Sola Scriptura, but I do not ascribe to Eternal Security and or that future sin is paid for. The Bible is STRONGLY against these two teachings. Well, you have to read the Bible more to figure it out for yourself. Ask the Lord, and He will show you.

I mean Paul did seem to struggle with sin even while saved. Thorn in the flesh and all that. Peter outright tells God no twice in the book of Acts and that's pretty sinful. Also you say Paul was talking about his previous life but the verse "I know what is good but do evil anyway" is in the present tense

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You really did not read my points and carefully examine the Scripture verses I referenced involving Romans 7:14-24. You need to do that in order to get out of your current way of wrong thinking here. But the choice is yours, though. You can be a good Berean or you can just choose to believe whatever the majority preachers teach. But Jesus said narrow is the way.

doctorwho29 said:

I am reading and believing the text. I am simply looking at it through the lens of what actually makes sense. It is simply not possible to be entirely sin free. It's just not possible. If you want to tell me about your life and why you believe you are perfect, I'm all ears. I'm downright curious actually

Again I ask you to address the thorn in the flesh or his use of the present tense in verses about sin or Peter arguing with God. Stop ignoring these uncomfortable passages.

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This is the problem. You cannot read the Scriptures through a lens of Eternal Security or OSAS. You have to just read the text as it reads plainly. If not, you are making it say something that it does not.

I am reading your response on Romans and I don't see where it actually says he's talking about the past. Every single verb is present tense

And again you focus on only one thing. You are refusing to touch the "thorn in the flesh" nor what I said about Peter in the book of Acts. You are actually refusing to comment on those verses and it's very telling.

Anyway, there is no point in continuing this. I read the Bible, I believe the Bible and I stand firm in everything I have said. I have grown up in the church (several denominations) and attended a Christian University on a ministry major. Yes I am rusty in some areas but everything I learned growing up points to eternal security and grace being sufficient (which God Himself says to Paul). Good evening to you.

doctorwho29 said:

I am reading your response on Romans and I don't see where it actually says he's talking about the past. Every single verb is present tense

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It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

doctorwho29 said:

I am reading your response on Romans and I don't see where it actually says he's talking about the past. Every single verb is present tense

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Well, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:


What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).



Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

doctorwho29 said:

And again you focus on only one thing. You are refusing to touch the "thorn in the flesh" nor what I said about Peter in the book of Acts. You are actually refusing to comment on those verses and it's very telling.

Anyway, there is no point in continuing this. I read the Bible, I believe the Bible and I stand firm in everything I have said. I have grown up in the church (several denominations) and attended a Christian University on a ministry major. Yes I am rusty in some areas but everything I learned growing up points to eternal security and grace being sufficient (which God Himself says to Paul). Good evening to you.

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Because it's ridiculous. Paul's thorn in his flesh was a physical ailment of some kind and not a sinful struggle. Paul's physical ailment I believe was a result of him seeing the third Heaven to humble him.

People see reasons to justify a sin and still be saved type belief in the Bible where none exists. Quote the verse or passage that makes you believe the “thorn in his flesh” is in reference to his sinning.

tryphena rose said:

In so much of our media and entertainment such as books, television shows, movies, video games and even music, magic is something that isn't used sparingly throughout the list of "creative" ideas to the world. In fact, it's getting harder to deter away from entertainment that doesn't contain some type of occult idea that defies the Truths of God.

When I first became a Christian, this was a big conviction for me as I wasn't into practicing anything occultic nor did I even believe it was true, however I was influenced by occult ideas based off of the media I was consuming, whether I had known it or not. As this was one of my very first convictions and I was strongly led by the Holy Spirit to turn from these things, I quickly saw how this wasn't the case for a majority of others. When things like Disney and Harry Potter are so popular, even among professing Christians, I'm left wondering how can this be so?

Talk to any born again believer who has come out of the new age movement and they understand how serious this is, because they've seen how far too real the deception of the enemy is to be lenient with these kinds of ideas, even at the expense of their own pleasure. In Revelation 21:8 the Bible says that sorcerers will have their part in the lake of fire. If this is taken seriously by God to include these kinds of people in the lake of fire, then why aren't the very ideas and practices that will put these people in the lake of fire, taken more seriously among Christians?

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I think as Christians we walk a fine line. On one hand everything is God's. He created it and holds the world together. On the other hand we have Satan who is trying to lead people astray and will use and twist everything that God made to his own advantage. But it's also possible to see a demon under every bush and end up in legalism and a very narrow way of living in fear of seeing, hearing anything.

We should want to be pure and lead Godly lives, but at the same time we are in the world and we want to be able to relate to the people of the world. When we tell the gospel we can't just say believe this, we also need to relate and show love. If our words condemn every little thing of the world that the people we are trying to reach enjoy it can come across that we have condemned and judged them to not be worthy. We will have no relatability left because just about everything has an element of sin simply because it was made by sinful people. The occult is just one facet of all sins.

As to some shows and books I think a lot is fantasy magic not real magic. Most Christians realize this and compartmentalize this. I am sure there are certain types of people who for them it is a hook into looking further and going into the occult, especially if they have not been taught that the occult is real and dangerous. For most, I don't think it does, but it can develop a level of acceptance towards it or a build a type of disbelief in it. Instead of being aware of the real dangers of the real occult the whole lot both fantasy and real is seen as harmless fun.

I think also each Christian needs to be aware of what we are called to do. Just because one person is called to do something or to avoid something, does not mean this applies to everyone. What may be a large conviction for you may not necessarily be for the next person, their personal conviction may be different because they have a different weakness that will bring them down. For some people their weakness may be sexual sin or addiction not the occult. Not saying that any Christian should dabble in the real occult, but things like Harry Potter or fantasy novels may not hold any danger for them. In fact with books and movies, for someone to have a ministry about them and detailing what parents should watch out for, they need to know the subject well. I don't think they could do that without watching or reading. If this is their calling they wouldn't be called to something that would bring them down, the same way a recovering alcoholic would not be called to preach in a pub. That's his weakness, not the weakness of the man called to reach those people. I feel this make-believe magic being something to avoid is a very individual thing.

As to going against God's truth, sadly that is practically everything. Turn on the TV and you will be faced with immorality, foul language, glorifying all kinds of sin unless you are watching something made for preschoolers and even there you can be faced with evolution. But I don't think the answer is to never watch the TV again but to become educated and aware and know what you personally need to avoid.

coffee4u said:

I think as Christians we walk a fine line. On one hand everything is God's. He created it and holds the world together. On the other hand we have Satan who is trying to lead people astray and will use and twist everything that God made to his own advantage. But it's also possible to see a demon under every bush and end up in legalism and a very narrow way of living in fear of seeing, hearing anything.

We should want to be pure and lead Godly lives, but at the same time we are in the world and we want to be able to relate to the people of the world. When we tell the gospel we can't just say believe this, we also need to relate and show love. If our words condemn every little thing of the world that the people we are trying to reach enjoy it can come across that we have condemned and judged them to not be worthy. We will have no relatability left because just about everything has an element of sin simply because it was made by sinful people. The occult is just one facet of all sins.

As to some shows and books I think a lot is fantasy magic not real magic. Most Christians realize this and compartmentalize this. I am sure there are certain types of people who for them it is a hook into looking further and going into the occult, especially if they have not been taught that the occult is real and dangerous. For most, I don't think it does, but it can develop a level of acceptance towards it or a build a type of disbelief in it. Instead of being aware of the real dangers of the real occult the whole lot both fantasy and real is seen as harmless fun.

I think also each Christian needs to be aware of what we are called to do. Just because one person is called to do something or to avoid something, does not mean this applies to everyone. What may be a large conviction for you may not necessarily be for the next person, their personal conviction may be different because they have a different weakness that will bring them down. For some people their weakness may be sexual sin or addiction not the occult. Not saying that any Christian should dabble in the real occult, but things like Harry Potter or fantasy novels may not hold any danger for them. In fact with books and movies, for someone to have a ministry about them and detailing what parents should watch out for, they need to know the subject well. I don't think they could do that without watching or reading. If this is their calling they wouldn't be called to something that would bring them down, the same way a recovering alcoholic would not be called to preach in a pub. That's his weakness, not the weakness of the man called to reach those people. I feel this make-believe magic being something to avoid is a very individual thing.

As to going against God's truth, sadly that is practically everything. Turn on the TV and you will be faced with immorality, foul language, glorifying all kinds of sin unless you are watching something made for preschoolers and even there you can be faced with evolution. But I don't think the answer is to never watch the TV again but to become educated and aware and know what you personally need to avoid.

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I turn on my fire TV and go directly to the Christian films or Christian documentaries that I am interested in to edify me more with the Word of God. Most today are out to please themselves involving the things of this world, and they are not set out solely to please the Lord. What one watches shows what one really loves. So I disagree. 1 John 2 talks about how we are not to love the world and neither the things of this world. Secular entertainment is clearly of this world. To indulge in it so as to enjoy it is to love the things of this world. But as Paul says,

“Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,” (Philippians 3:8).

Bible Highlighter said:

Yep. This is the reason why I will not endless debate this with you.

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If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.