Why are Christians so incredibly deceived about scripture?

[miknik5]

And what more ABOVE preaching THE TRUTH did you expect Martin Luther to do

 

[miknik5]

Another thing you forget is that some do not have THE SPIRIT of CHRIST therefore they do not have the anointing and do not believe.
That does not mean we change THE GOSPEL. It is GOD's WIRD and will be received only by those to whom GOD chooses to reveal HIS WORD

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What do you want me to do about it? They aren't keeping before them what they began in

Every one of Y'SHAU'S disciples
were instructed and trained by Y'SHUA
to spend many times in prayer privately and this time and
much time in conversation/prayer/abiding echad in and with YHWH and Y'SHUA
continually daily every day
and then eventually all of the focus will be on YHWH and HIS WAY instead of our previous way.
THEN
"DO" what YHWH does - "SPEAK" what YHWH speaks.
Let every thought, word, action be
as from YHWH, every day, all the time.
(NOT over-spiritualizing things, but
rather like little children DELIGHTED IN YHWH as
a little child is continually DELIGHTED in his faithful father ...)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And what more ABOVE preaching THE TRUTH did you expect Martin Luther to do

He did what he did.
It is known that a lot of what YHWH revealed to and thru him
the people stopped short and
did not do all that was revealed.
YHWH knows why that happened.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Another thing you forget is that some do not have THE SPIRIT of CHRIST therefore they do not have the anointing and do not believe.

Who forgot this ?
Also - a minor correction - A LOT do not have and never have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST. Most people on earth never repent nor even seek YHWH or CHRIST.

 

[miknik5]

Every one of Y'SHAU'S disciples
were instructed and trained by Y'SHUA
to spend many times in prayer privately and this time and
much time in conversation/prayer/abiding echad in and with YHWH and Y'SHUA
continually daily every day
and then eventually all of the focus will be on YHWH and HIS WAY instead of our previous way.
THEN
"DO" what YHWH does - "SPEAK" what YHWH speaks.
Let every thought, word, action be
as from YHWH, every day, all the time.
(NOT over-spiritualizing things, but
rather like little children DELIGHTED IN YHWH as
a little child is continually DELIGHTED in his faithful father ...)

How did they initially become one?
Did they hear HIS VOICE before or after they spent time with HIM?

And who teaches?
And how does HE teach but by HIS SPIRIT?

And how would one learn if not by HIS SPIRIT?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How did they initially become one?
Did they hear HIS VOICE before or after they spent time with HIM?

And who teaches?
And how does HE teach but by HIS SPIRIT?

And how would one learn if not by HIS SPIRIT?

All of these questions are clearly answered in HIS WORD.
Much of the answers are UNEXPECTED.
So don't be surprised when they are revealed.
(I don't think you are surprised - I think you know already -
but most people never find out.)

 

[ToBeLoved]

I hope this thread stays on topic today. People are drifting off.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All are valid today. The 10 commandments were given to man, by God. They are not man made. The fact that there are no death penalties for some, now, on earth, is mute.

Well, there are more than just 10 Commandments within the Law of Moses or within the Old Covenant. There are 613 Old Covenant Commands. However, these laws (or commands) have been fulfilled by Jesus Christ upon the cross and they have been superceded or replaced by the many unique new Commands within the New Testament. For the Scriptures say that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

In the book of Romans and Galatians, etc., Paul addresses the problem of circumcision (Which is a going back to the Old Law of Moses) (Romans 3:1) (Galatians 5:2). Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses on the cross (Matthew 5:17). For the Scriptures say Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). Also, shortly before the cross, Jesus was trying to tell us that by saying the words "A new covenant" he was declaring that the old covenant was going to pass away. For Jesus essentially said before His crucfixiion, "A new covenant, ... hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13). In other words, the Old Covenant would pass away with Christ's death upon the cross. For when Jesus died, the temple veil was also torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51) and the Old Priesthood and it's sacrifices (Which was a part of the Law) had ended and brought in a change of new priesthood order (Hebrews 7:12). But Jesus did not come to destroy the entire Old Testament (Which is also called the "Law and the Prophets") (Matthew 5:17) because there are still many End Times Prophecies Jesus needs to fulfill. Also, many of the moral laws in the Old Law have been carried on over into the New Testament (Romans 13:8-10) (although they do not have the death penalty attached to them anymore) (John 8:1-11) (John 3:17). Peter was told to break OT Law by eating unclean animals. Jesus was preparing men for the New Covenant (that would officially begin with Jesus's death) by telling them that it is no longer an eye for an eye (as it is written) but we are to turn the other cheek if we are struck by somebody.

As for the Sabbath: Paul says judge nobody according to Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16). In fact, Paul says in regards to the Sabbath that some regard every day the same and says we are to be persuaded in our own mind (Romans 14:5). In fact, followers of Christ would gather on a Sunday (i.e. the first day of the week) and not on the Saturday Sabbath (John 20:19, John 20:26, Acts 2:1). This would include gathering every Sunday to partake of the Lord's supper (Acts 20:7), and to provide money (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

Eternal death awaits the one who breaks any of the 10

9 out of the 10 are moral laws. So it makes sense that they would be eternal. However, the Sabbath is not a moral law but it is a ceremonial law. A moral law is any law that all people would instinctly know to be good without a specific law telling them that this is so. It is of course tied to the 2nd Commandment (Which is to love your neighbor as yourself). However, nowhere will you find the Saturday Sabbath re-stressed or commanded within the New Testament (After Christ's death when the New Covenant or New Testament began).

As I said, you cannot break any of the original 10 without breaking the two new ones Christ gave.

This would be true for only the 9 moral laws out of the 10. This would not include the Saturday Sabbath.

What exactly is the "new covenant" and it's Commands, anyway?

This would be any Command given to us under the New Testament.

Here is a list of about 1,000 + New Testament Commands:

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

I think you are getting the Laws confused with the Commandments.

Uh, no. A Law is a Commandment.

Paul speaks of the Law and the Commandment interchangably here,

8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

In fact, the breaking of the Law (or Commandment) is how we define sin (1 John 3:4).
Adam and Eve were given a Command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17); And by one man (Adam) sin entered the world (Romans 5:12). So a Law is the same thing as a Commandment.

You cannot love your neighbor as yourself if you are coveting his car, sleeping with his wife, stealing his vegetables from his garden, killing his dog, lying to him.

Nowhere do I disagree with Romans 13:8-10. But Paul is not talking about all New Testament Commands here. Paul is referencing about how keeping the 2nd Commandment will lead a person to automatically keeping the 9 moral laws out of the 10 Commandments from the Old Law. Other New Testament Commands or Laws are not something that you would automatically do (without specific written instruction telling you to do so). For Jesus says preach the gospel to all nations and make disciples. Scripture tells us that we are to be baptized, observe the Lord's supper, and to confess our faults towards one another, etc.

And again, they were not the ten "Laws", they were the ten "commandments"

Again, carefully re-read Romans 13:8-10.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, keeping God's Commandments (of which I talk about above) relates to whether you have understanding of God's Word or not (See the following verses below in my next post).


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[Thursday]

You're now dodging the issue....Just how moral is moral? How much morality is good enough to get you saved?

How much faith is enough faith?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Anyways, keeping God's Commandments (of which I talk about above) relates to whether you have understanding of God's Word or not.


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I think that in the TORAH , YHWH told ISRAEL to OBEY.
I think that in the NT, Y'SHUA told the disciples to OBEY.

Whether they understood or not, in TORAH, or in the NT,
they were told to OBEY.

Just like illustrated in HEBREWS, and
a good father today,
teaches his children from before conception (via preparation , prayer, life style, habits, and diet)
and from birth
to obey.
A bad human father does not train his children in what is right.
Likewise YHWH would be 'imperfect' if HE did not chastise HIS own children as HE SAYS.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How much faith is enough faith?

Any faith in YHWH
is enough faith as
HE says "the word is nigh thee even in thy mouth... " (already)
(or it is not)

It is a gift from YHWH(GOD).

One tiny mustard seed of faith is enough to do more than anyone you personally know,
perhaps more than anyone (alive today) we've ever heard of....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Obedience to God's Laws brings understanding.

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,"
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

"For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge." (Jeremiah 4:22).

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Side Note:

But today, the believer does not follow the Torah Law. The Law portion of the "Law and the Prophets" has been fulfilled by Jesus and has been superceded or replaced by the Laws or Commands in the New Testament. This is obvious if you were to compare the two sets of laws between the Old and the New. The Laws between the Old and the New don't match up with each other. They conflict with one another. For you cannot put new wine into old wine skins.


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[JacksBratt]

No.

No.
Y'SHUA showed what to do , HE trained the Apostles and disciples in what to do to to be in YHWH'S KINGDOM.

He did not give salvation to all of HIS DISCIPLES ! (some of them, many of them, walked away from HIM without it)

I'm confused.

What happens to anyone who breaks a commandment?

Have we not all broken one of them, at least?

Is this not what makes us sinners?

Is this not why we need salvation?

What is this thing you speak of when you say Y'SHUA showed what to do?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Obedience to God's Laws brings understanding.

This simple statement,
true in line with YHWH'S WORD (all of HIS WORD),
when devoted to HIM,
when seeking HIM,
(i.e. NOT when trying to get brownie points by obedience)
is often
not only ignored,
but also denied by those leading multitudes astray.(in churches and out of churches).

YHWH desires obedience.

 

[JacksBratt]

Obedience to God's Laws brings understanding.

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,"
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

"For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge." (Jeremiah 4:22).

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land" (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Side Note:

But today, the believer does not follow the Torah Law. The Law portion of the "Law and the Prophets" has been fulfilled by Jesus and has been superceded or replaced by the Laws or Commands in the New Testament. This is obvious if you were to compare the two sets of laws between the Old and the New. The Laws between the Old and the New don't match up with each other. They conflict with one another. For you cannot put new wine into old wine skins.


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Just what are you trying to say here. I am missing your point.

What is the old laws and new laws?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="JacksBratt, post: 70321408, member: 355371"]I'm confused.
What happens to anyone who breaks a commandment?
Have we not all broken one of them, at least?
Is this not what makes us sinners?
Is this not why we need salvation?
What is this thing you speak of when you say Y'SHUA showed what to do? QUOTE

Yes, many (most all the world) are either confused or willfully rejecting Y'SHUA thus always confused.
When anyone breaks a commandment,
what does YHWH'S WORD say to do ? (This is simple, not confusing).

All thru the OLD TESTAMENT, TORAH, and NEW TESTAMENT
is
YHWH'S INSTRUCTIONS what to do.

Simple. Y'SHUA showed even more clearly, and showed that trusting in YHWH and relying on YHWH to accomplish SALVATION is required.

 

[Widlast]

Do you think that there is anyone in Hell that believed that they needed Christ's salvation when they lived on earth?

We must believe that He is the only way. We must believe that He died for us. We must believe that we are a sinner. We must believe that we are damned without salvation. We must believe that we are guilty of sin and hell will be our punishment.

If there is anyone in hell that believed these things, when they were on earth, they are in hell by their own choice.

Everyone who is in Hell is there by their own choice, there is no other way to get there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's not double talk. If you're saved why would you not do works?

No. It's double talk because you said before that you do not have to do anything to be saved. This is basically telling a person that they can live however they like (Which does not promote a person to live righteously or to be fruitful for their LORD).

For the popular version of Eternal Security (or a "sin and still be saved" type belief) has led people into a life style of sin. It is not a matter of debate, but it is a fact. I have provided testimonies to show that very fact. So it does not matter if people who believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) here are living in a lifestyle of sin or not. The fact of the matter we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini

Oh, and just so that you know, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Meaning, works are the proof the Lord lives within you. Anyways, if a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

Salvation is not Belief Alone-ism

Jesus Christ did the work required for salvation for you. It's not what you do but what Jesus did.

You just don't seem to get it...I NEVER said or claimed that. So, stop using it concerning my understanding of scripture.

Here again we see a contradiction in your belief system. On the one hand you are saying you are not saved by anything you do and yet on the other hand you are saying that you do not believe in Belief Alone-ism. So which is it? How would you categorize your belief in regards to how we are saved?

(a) Belief Alone-ism
(b) Works Alone Salvation-ism
(c) His Mercy, His Redemptive Work, Abiding in Christ (Relationship-ism by faith), and Transformationi-ism (i.e. to be born again).
(d) Forced Regeneration Before Faith.
(e) Forced Regeneration Before Faith Followed by Belief Alone-ism.
(f) Other.

A person is saved...then they do works. Romans 9 concerning the twins clearly shows you are elected prior to doing good or bad.

Is there some reason God predetermines some to be good and some to be bad? Or does God just choose people randomly? Or does God look into the future and know who will be good and who will be bad?

In any event, whenever a person is confused (or has a wrong interpretation) on a verse or chapter in the Bible, all they need to do is put Jesus in it and it becomes clear.

In other words, when you read Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is thru the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line. Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf. Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come thru. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).

Now, when you read Romans 9:14-16: Well, you have to realize that it is talking about God's plan of salvation with Jesus Christ being their Messiah of whom the Jews rejected. God is saying He will have mercy in the WAY God wants to do things and not according to Jewish thoughts or beliefs (Which one of their ways they considered a person to be right with God was thru circumcision - See Romans 3:1).

And when you read Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? By God making the Pharoah wealthy? Not exactly. God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Paraoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.

Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.

Your religion condemns you.....or have you not violated any of the verses you posted above?

Not really. Ever read 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7?
Ever read Romans 8:1 and Romans 8:4?
Also, Christians are not characterized as living a lifestyle that is described in those verses I listed above. They may stumble on occasion, but they do not live in a fallen state of sin.

Let me give you a real world example again to illustrate.

The True Believer is like the alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery in being sober.

The Eternal Security Proponent is like an alcoholic who enters a drug program to be sober but they have no intention of giving up their drink. This is implied when they say things like, "You are not saved by anything you do." (i.e. by the kind of life that you live) (Which is a license for immorality).

In fact, your whole point is about how I cannot keep the following Commands above and it is not about how I can keep them.

ALL of my sins...past, present and future have been forgiven. ALL of them.

And here in lies the problem. The false... "my present and future sins are already forgiven me." .... type belief. This basically gives a person a green light that they do not need to worry about their sin anymore or take God's Commands as seriously.

But if you were to actually re-read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8 you would discover that they list consequences in the after-life for committing these various sins. Jesus and His followers make no mention of how the believer can do these sins and yet be free of the after-life consequences.

In other words, if people knew tomorrow that there was no more speed limit law on the high ways in certain states here in America, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drive faster at unsafe speeds and die in traffic accidents. In other words, it is human nature to do the wrong thing. So when a believer proposes to others that they cannot lose their salvation no matter what they do, they are proposing to them to live in an immoral life style (Antinomianism).


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