Why are Christians living like the rest of the world?

[Nadiine]

Do you know the term, intellectual dishonesty? Look, Here's what is written about soldiers. Luke 3:14, And the soldiers likewise demanded of him,saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages....That's what is expected of soldiers. Do violence to no man. Frankly, any soldier that holds to this,will likely face cortmarshal for deraliction of duty,or refuseing to obey a direct order. An F-16,is a weapon of war and has no other purpose than to kill people,and destroy infrastructure. These are not Christian activities. The purpose of the field trip was in fact to encourage participation in warfare.

Well then, I guess you owe ALL your thanks to your freedom and current SAFETY in America to either athiest - pagans - heathens, OR, false Christians; all of whom are hellbound.
Even Police officers would have to fall into that category.

You may need to check on God's standards about self defense. Anyone that thought self defense was "evil", I'd have to think was evil or cowardly (or both).
Don't use the verses about Peter cutting off the ear of the guard either, because Jesus CAME for the mission of giving His life over for sacrifice.
Peter was actually working against God's plan at that point; and THAT is what made it wrong. NOT his act of protection.

Just count on everyone else to keep you protected, free and safe... then complain about how ungodly they all are.

 

[Guitarpope]

WELL THEN-----NO, those "who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitude, afflicted, tormented-of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in the deserts and the mountains, in dens and caves of the earth". And to all the other martyrs from then till now .

 

[seekthetruth909]

Norris;Nothing has changed. The spirit lives within us,and our gatherings should be spiritual. There are plenty of stores that are not also churches,where one may purchase items related to our faith. Comerce is not the function of the church,worship is,edification is,but not comerce. When comerce inters in,it becomes the focus of the church.

I disagree. It has changed. Each believer is a temple. We should be spiritual in all walks of life, not just in church.


I agree that Christianity in the west has become very commercialized. TV preachers selling healing oil, anointed cloths, cd, books etc. Whenever I go a Christian bookstore I notice they charge more for the same book than in a secular bookstore. Christianity has become a big money making business, but I find nothing wrong with churches having a bake sale, Car wash, or similar event to raise money for a good cause.

So, instead of contributing to church sales,we could instead give to the poor. Take some cash and give it to,say,a church that ministers to and helps street people. They are doing a good work, but their flock cannot support it,so, we help them. Or maybe sponser a ministry that seeks to feed and clothe and give the gospel to children in desperate poverty,in say India or Africa, or south America. Here again, we can use our wealth to do good. These are Christian works,and we need to be doing them,and leave comerce to comercial interprises.

I agree. This is a major issue in professor Sider’s book. American Christians have so much affluence and seek more personal wealth while abandoning the poor. This is in direct conflict to New Testament scripture.

From Publishers Weekly
This stinging jeremiad by Sider (Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger) demands that American Christians start practicing what they preach. Evangelical Christians, says Sider, are very much like their non-Christian neighbors in rates of divorce, premarital sex, domestic violence and use of pornography, and are actually more likely to hold racist views than other people.

Why the discrepancy between American Christians' practices and what the Bible teaches? Sider decries the materialism of most churches, marshaling evidence to demonstrate that American Christians' charitable giving has decreased even while their income has risen. Although they are collectively the wealthiest Christians in the history of the world, they don't take care of the poor, he says. Sider reviews the New Testament to argue that

Christians can't accept Jesus as their Savior without also honoring him as their Lord and obeying his teachings. In the final chapters, he insists that Christians must strengthen their accountability to the church and "dethrone mammon" (money) as the real object of worship.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Well then, I guess you owe ALL your thanks to your freedom and current SAFETY in America to either athiest - pagans - heathens, OR, false Christians; all of whom are hellbound.
Even Police officers would have to fall into that category.

You may need to check on God's standards about self defense. Anyone that thought self defense was "evil", I'd have to think was evil or cowardly (or both).
Don't use the verses about Peter cutting off the ear of the guard either, because Jesus CAME for the mission of giving His life over for sacrifice.
Peter was actually working against God's plan at that point; and THAT is what made it wrong. NOT his act of protection.

Just count on everyone else to keep you protected, free and safe... then complain about how ungodly they all are.

This is not the life we seek, There is and never has been safety in this world. We are not guaranteed anything by the state. The state cannot protect us. The state does not protect us. The freedoms you speak of are under attack,from the state. I'm not going to get into politics here though. These things are the affairs of the world. God is in control of all of that. The battle between good and evil,is fought within each and every one of us. We have the ability to choose one or the other. The choice we make,determines our individual outcome. The war we're in is not carnal,but spiritual. It is the battle for our very soul. The commandments given by Jesus are binding.Our faith, coupled with the gospel,are our best weapons for success,where failing is a disaster of unimaginable horror. What we face in this life is nothing compared to hell. This is why we embraced Jesus in the first place. Jesus showed us, by example, how we should live. The apostles also copied his example. All but John were martyered for their witness. They gave their lives for the sake of the gospel. Their sacrifice is an example to us. I guarantee you, there are no cowards in heaven. Now the church has embraced the state. The church has changed the gospel through it's doctrin. If this had not been the case,the church would be the enemy of the state. Christians in the US, for instance,would most likely be in hiding,just as they were in Rome. Those who were found, would be imprisoned or executed.Their crime would be sedition,which by the way, was the crime Jesus was crucified for.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I disagree. It has changed. Each believer is a temple. We should be spiritual in all walks of life, not just in church.


I agree that Christianity in the west has become very commercialized. TV preachers selling healing oil, anointed cloths, cd, books etc. Whenever I go a Christian bookstore I notice they charge more for the same book than in a secular bookstore. Christianity has become a big money making business, but I find nothing wrong with churches having a bake sale, Car wash, or similar event to raise money for a good cause.



I agree. This is a major issue in professor Sider’s book. American Christians have so much affluence and seek more personal wealth while abandoning the poor. This is in direct conflict to New Testament scripture.

You misunderstand what I'm saying about the spirit as it relates to church. I'm not saying that one may leave his walk behind,after the service. What I'm saying is that comerce within the church pollutes the message. Give me an example of how a bake sale or car wash,does not take the place of individual charity.We also need to be discerning about the nature of our charity. We are cautioned to not do our alms before men,but before God. This should be done in secret,to the extent that it is possible.

 

[seekthetruth909]

You may need to check on God's standards about self defense. Anyone that thought self defense was "evil", I'd have to think was evil or cowardly (or both).

Hello Nadine,
While you have made some excellent observations on many of your post in this thread I don't agree with you on this. The worldly view is not black and white.

What about the Christians meeting in house churches in China? They are arrested, tortured, beaten, and killed for refusing to renounce their faith. Are they cowards for not picking up guns and fighting to protect themselves?The irony is, if they did fight back, since America is an ally of China, these Christians would be classified as terrorist and put on America’s terrorist list.They only have two choices, they can turn the other cheek and die for their religion and be called cowards by some, or fight back and be called terrorist by governments.

God Bless

 

[seekthetruth909]

Harlan Norris: You misunderstand what I'm saying about the spirit as it relates to church. I'm not saying that one may leave his walk behind,after the service.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

What I'm saying is that comerce within the church pollutes the message. Give me an example of how a bake sale or car wash,does not take the place of individual charity.

An example would be a very poor church where the individuals don't have much to give but they have a small church which is empty six days a week which could be used to host a yard sale to raise money to feed a widow and her children. Is a church still a house of God Monday to Friday or is it just an empty building which could be used commercially for God's work?

We also need to be discerning about the nature of our charity. We are cautioned to not do our alms before men,but before God. This should be done in secret,to the extent that it is possible.

I agree completely. Some people in church like to brag about how much they tithe wishing to impress people.This basiclly cancels out the whole act of giving. The bible says we should give in secret. That way only God know.

God Bless

 

[Nadiine]

Hello Nadine,
While you have made some excellent observations on many of your post in this thread I don't agree with you on this. The worldly view is not black and white.

What about the Christians meeting in house churches in China? They are arrested, tortured, beaten, and killed for refusing to renounce their faith. Are they cowards for not picking up guns and fighting to protect themselves?The irony is, if they did fight back, since America is an ally of China, these Christians would be classified as terrorist and put on America’s terrorist list.They only have two choices, they can turn the other cheek and die for their religion and be called cowards by some, or fight back and be called terrorist by governments.

hi,
As I understand it, America has made exceptions & special rules to certain circumstances before - so I don't see as the above would be any different.

I wasn't calling the people enduring martyrdom or people enduring their loved one's being martyrs all "cowards".
I was calling people who would criticize & attack any military/govt. defensive forces who are providing protection to it's people or others who are helpless, "cowardly" & "evil".

In context that's what my reply was about. The generalization that "all war" or "all military" is not of God - while they sit protected IN FREEDOM & SAFETY under the umbrella of that very force.

When people INSIDE a communist country convert to a religion that is dissallowed (or go to one), they do take their life into their own hands.
Yes, unfortunately, these can & do become Martyrs. God doesn't provide release or relief for ALL of them (whether by changing their laws to make Christianity legal, special circumstance, or by force) -

Each situation & circumstance is different. I don't believe there is any one "blanket" rule for using force or military action.

But if we're going to claim that invading Germany to rescue the Jews & Christians during the Holocaust is "evil" (attributing it to being "GODLY" to leave them in starvation & genocide), then frankly I completely disagree & find THAT as barbaric as what was being done to them.

I'd guess that if it was OUR own family members or ourselves that were being tortured, starved & raped daily, we'd certainly WISH someone came in to rescue us even if by force.

Somehow I have a problem with that going too far across the line of passivity - the types who will walk by the starving man in the road & say "i'll pray for you that you get help".

 

[PastorMikeJ]

hmmm the spirit of religion as taken control of alot of our "Christian" churches...we have to get our focus back on Jesus and off of man...by focusing on Jesus we will walk in His love and be able to love of our brothers and sisters..to do what Jesus would do..we sin because we aren't focusing on the Lord..we have pain in our lives because we aren't focusing on Him...the problems in the modern church is the concern of what men think of us..instead of what God thinks of us...

return back to focusing on God!!!

 

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Why are Christians living like the rest of the world....?

Well if they are then...there's a problem. Either their love, joy, peace is gone or they are more carnal and babes than mature Christians. Those that are led by the spirit of God are the sons and daughters of God.
If they aren't abiding in the vine they can't do anything apart from it (HIM) and a branch that does not bare fruit is nigh on to being either pruned or cut off altogether...it's not a fun place to be.

 

[seekthetruth909]

hi,

Each situation & circumstance is different. I don't believe there is any one "blanket" rule for using force or military action.

But if we're going to claim that invading Germany to rescue the Jews & Christians during the Holocaust is "evil" (attributing it to being "GODLY" to leave them in starvation & genocide), then frankly I completely disagree & find THAT as barbaric as what was being done to them.

I will agree with you that World War 2 was a just war, but it had nothing to do with the Holocaust. That evil act was discovered after the war. America's main reason for declaring war on Germany was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor although president Roosevelt would have eventually convinced congress to enter the war against Germany to protect democracy in Europe.

You may need to check on God's standards about self defense. Anyone that thought self defense was "evil", I'd have to think was evil or cowardly (or both).

Nadine lets forget scripture for a second and debate this on the merits of what we believe to be right and wrong.
You said the military killing in the self-defense of its country was justified.
You also said military action to prevent genocide and other inhuman acts against society is justified. I agree on these two points. {From a non-biblical aspect of my sense of right and wrong}

Are there any other reasons that justify military action?


Have you seen the movie, “Hotel Rwanda"? It is a true story about the genocide that was committed 10 years ago in Rwanda. Close to a million people, men, woman, children, and babies were brutally hacked to death in the streets within a few months. No country in the world would help because Rwanda is a poor country and has no oil or other resources.

Recently some Christian groups are trying to pressure Washington to do something concerning the recent genocide in Darfur, Africa. But once again it has no economic benefit to the west so there is little hope of intervention. What is more important, protecting our economic interest in the world, or preventing inhumanity and genocide?

God Bless

 

[Nadiine]

I will agree with you that World War 2 was a just war, but it had nothing to do with the Holocaust. That evil act was discovered after the war. America's main reason for declaring war on Germany was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor although president Roosevelt would have eventually convinced congress to enter the war against Germany to protect democracy in Europe.

Nadine lets forget scripture for a second and debate this on the merits of what we believe to be right and wrong.
You said the military killing in the self-defense of its country was justified.
You also said military action to prevent genocide and other inhuman acts against society is justified. I agree on these two points. {From a non-biblical aspect of my sense of right and wrong}

Are there any other reasons that justify military action?


Have you seen the movie, “Hotel Rwanda"? It is a true story about the genocide that was committed 10 years ago in Rwanda. Close to a million people, men, woman, children, and babies were brutally hacked to death in the streets within a few months. No country in the world would help because Rwanda is a poor country and has no oil or other resources.

Recently some Christian groups are trying to pressure Washington to do something concerning the recent genocide in Darfur, Africa. But once again it has no economic benefit to the west so there is little hope of intervention. What is more important, protecting our economic interest in the world, or preventing inhumanity and genocide?

Unfortunately, my history knowledge is about as good as my math. :o
As I remember the tv documentaries I saw on the war, that wasn't the sole reason - they did already catch wind of mistreatment of people & knew of them dissappearing over there. So it's possible it was a combined reason.
Either way, they used force & ENDED IT. Praise God.

As far as Rwanda, yes I remember that genocide - let's not forget aparthide too.
I say this, THE ENTIRE WORLD'S RESCUE ISN'T INCUMBANT SOLELY ON THE USA.
Where are OTHER countries? I hope you aren't blaming America?
We aren't the world police where when we see or hear of some attrocties, go & send our troops everywhere to the rescue.
The WORLD has an obligation (thru the UN) in this too.
Where is everyone else??
Since I'm not a mind reader, I cannot agree or disagree about the motive you attach as to why Rwanda was ignored. I don't know all the details & issues for each countries failure to intervene.
It may or may not be the case.

But my issue wasn't to go into specific wars tho.
The truth is, the OT has some of the bloodiest battles archived. God TOLD THEM to wipe out the women & children (for reasons I understand & accept - just that it's not all too pleasant) & led them from one campaign to another to get them into the Promise land.
Plus, He initiated capitol punishment. IF it were against God's principles & it was evil, He would have paved the way for Israel w/out leading them to mass slaughter of "innocent" people.
[all He had to do was send mass plagues, weather disasters fires, or wild animals in & wiped them out before them].

My point is, God isn't a passivist; He never was. Look at Jesus making a whip of cords & turning over tables of the moneychangers abusing the people coming to worship.
He is both loving, but He's also JUST and vengeful (Vengeance -revenge- is MINE, I will repay sayeth the Lord).

What I see happening is, people are REDEFINING what Love is rather than using God as the Model.
Love today in modern society is removing anything that makes anyone feel "unpleasant, uncomfortable or inconvenienced" in any way.
This is why you see so many "pastors" neglecting to preach on "sin" or "hell", or anything else that's not uplifting or "negative".
LOVE IS BEING WRONGLY DEFINED & distorted from it's true meaning. Our purest example of Love comes FROM GOD who IS love, in all His attributes.

As for Darfur, Christians ARE doing what I want to see; trying to help & get aid to them, while at the same time trying to get world attn. to bring military force to stop these muslims.
My problem is with those who don't CARE about their plight because they're "anti war/military". All war/military is sinful to them no matter what the cause.
Anyone who'd use force to get them liberated is "evil" in that person's mind.
(while comfortably enjoying the freedom & safety under the umbrella of that very force they deem wicked - they'll sure accept all the BENEFITS it provides them).

But our Govt. has tried in the UN to get attn there to stop it. I've watched them speak about it on the news.
Just recently, George Clooney -of all people even spoke at the UN on this - I saw the film footage of him there; it's his cause as well - what's the UN doing about it?

I'm not quick to attach *motive* as to why each country isn't interceding there. We can't KNOW why - we can speculate but not judge.

The USA has brought this up repeatedly to the UN as a top priority issue.
As I see it, it's the UN (countries within it) TYING THE HANDS OF ANYONE TRYING TO STOP IT.
In the USA's defense, since we know Muslims don't fight "fair", it's not so easy or cheap as to send a few troops in as if that's going to free them. It's not as simple as it might seem to go in there.

The POINT here tho, is that it is our WILL to help them & use force to intervene.
Hope that clarifies things better
peace

 

[Harlan Norris]

Has it ever occoured to any, that if the christian nation of Germany,had behaved as a unit, as Christians should,Hitler, would never have come to power. The govenment of Germany would not have been overthrown. The people would have known who he was and they would not have listened. It was the anger and bitterness in their hearts, that stemmed from the treaty,signed after ww1,that caused them to agree with a madman. If they had been true Christians,they would have forgiven. See, forgiveness, is the hallmark of Christianity. One can tell a Christian,by their ability to forgive. That ability only comes from the knowledge that this life is finite. It doesn't last. It doesn't go on forever. That at some point,not far off,everyone will find themselves in Gods hands, in a way that they can't deny. So, we suffer through it. Viewed in this manner,no hardship is insurmountable,because we seek salvation in the next life. That life does not end. Adherence to the gospel and the two commandments of Jesus, cannot be ignored for any reason. If one intends to enter heaven. We must keep our eye on the prise. This life is not the prise.

 

[seekthetruth909]

But my issue wasn't to go into specific wars tho.
The truth is, the OT has some of the bloodiest battles archived. God TOLD THEM to wipe out the women & children (for reasons I understand & accept - just that it's not all too pleasant) & led them from one campaign to another to get them into the Promise land.
Plus, He initiated capitol punishment. IF it were against God's principles & it was evil, He would have paved the way for Israel w/out leading them to mass slaughter of "innocent" people.
[all He had to do was send mass plagues, weather disasters fires, or wild animals in & wiped them out before them].

My point is, God isn't a passivist; He never was. Look at Jesus making a whip of cords & turning over tables of the moneychangers abusing the people coming to worship.
He is both loving, but He's also JUST and vengeful (Vengeance -revenge- is MINE, I will repay sayeth the Lord).


peace

Thank you for your reply.
To be honest with you, the only command of Jesus I struggle with is to turn the other cheek and love our enemies. Sometimes I try to turn the other cheek in small matters but in the case of physical aggression I want to fight back! When I watch movies like, “Saving Private Ryan” I get teary eyed from the heroics. To protect the weak and fight to make the world a better place seems to me like the right thing to do. But recently I decided to re-commit my self to God and follow his teachings in the bible. Some people say you can interpret the bible a hundred different ways to make it fit in with your personal beliefs. I disagree. There are some parts that may appear unclear and are open to interpretation but 95% of the bible is not open to interpretation, it says what it says. How can we use rational reasoning and say, “love your enemies,” means to kill them or, “turn your other check,” really means to strike back.
Most pro war people use the Old Testament to justify killing, but even if we follow the argument that the Old Covenant laws, rules, or principles are still in effect, this would only apply to the ones that Jesus didn’t specifically change. Unfortunately he made it hard for us when he said:

Matthew 5 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Would killing them be “loving” them? Would killing them be “doing good” to them? Would killing them be “blessing” them?

We can run back and hide in the Old Testament, or use a very weak argument about Jesus using a whip in the temple to justify ignoring his commands, but in the end, regardless of whether we don’t like it or not, we are left with the word of God. I have heard Christians for years tell me that we shouldn’t listen to Jesus in regards to turning the other cheek and loving our enemy. It was ridiculous and a sign of weakness to do so. I agreed with them. But now I realize it is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of faith. I hope some day I have that kind of faith. Until then I will struggle with turning the other cheek and loving my enemy.

God Bless

Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36

 

[seekthetruth909]

Has it ever occoured to any, that if the christian nation of Germany,had behaved as a unit, as Christians should,Hitler, would never have come to power. The govenment of Germany would not have been overthrown. The people would have known who he was and they would not have listened. It was the anger and bitterness in their hearts, that stemmed from the treaty,signed after ww1,that caused them to agree with a madman. If they had been true Christians,they would have forgiven. See, forgiveness, is the hallmark of Christianity. One can tell a Christian,by their ability to forgive. That ability only comes from the knowledge that this life is finite. It doesn't last. It doesn't go on forever. That at some point,not far off,everyone will find themselves in Gods hands, in a way that they can't deny. So, we suffer through it. Viewed in this manner,no hardship is insurmountable,because we seek salvation in the next life. That life does not end. Adherence to the gospel and the two commandments of Jesus, cannot be ignored for any reason. If one intends to enter heaven. We must keep our eye on the prise. This life is not the prise.

I agree. We struggle and fight to stay alive.We cling to our preconceived opinions. We cling desperately to this world. But if we have genuine faith, why are we all afraid so much of dying and going to heaven?

God Bless

 

[tturt]

Looking at the last post re: afraid of dying -

compare that with "rapture mentality" = many people wanting the Lord to come back - today.

Of course, God's Word says "fear not"

 

[Nadiine]

I agree. We struggle and fight to stay alive.We cling to our preconceived opinions. We cling desperately to this world. But if we have genuine faith, why are we all afraid so much of dying and going to heaven?

God Bless

I hope that isn't to question people's faith? Every one of us has issues & weaknesses we struggle with. I call it humanity - this reminds me of one of my favorite verses, "Lord, you know my Frame". Lord, you know my limitations, weaknesses & fallibilities.. my stupidity, my fear, my pride, ..........
we're human, we have fears & issues.

& God GIVES US our love of life. We value, cherish & respect life - it's a GIFT.
This life is all we experience and know, and we have attachments in it: loved ones, home, pets, good times... we have a fondness for them and in our natural mental state, this is all we "know" (in any literal sense).
What new mother wants to DIE & not be able to raise her new baby? etc.

Much like the saying, what you don't "know" you don't "miss".
Since we haven't been to heaven to see it firsthand, or meet God face to face in person, it's only natural that we'd CLING to what we know.

The problem comes in when we grow more attached to the things here THAN God. Our focus changes.

I meet Christians who both have fear and absolutely NO fear of death (my husband is one) - my brother in law who died 6 yrs ago had NO fear of death... some do, some don't.

But I WOULDN"T judge people's love for God by that- or their spirituality. (not that you are!) Not everyone views things the same way as others do.
But the verses by Paul about judging a weaker brother fit this situation - if someone is weaker in the death issue, we should be understanding & gentle with that fear -- not judge their spiritual condition becuz WE don't have that fear ourselves.

One last point, the bigger fear for people (imo) is the way they'll die - let's face it, we can die peacefully in our sleep, or we could be that poor guy who was savagely beheaded by terrorists who held him captive!

GUESS WHICH WAY I'D RATHER DIE ​

 

[Harlan Norris]

I agree. We struggle and fight to stay alive.We cling to our preconceived opinions. We cling desperately to this world. But if we have genuine faith, why are we all afraid so much of dying and going to heaven?

God Bless

Amen!

 

[lilymarie]

I'd like to see the Vatican sell all it's gold and jewels to help the poor.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I'd like to see the Vatican sell all it's gold and jewels to help the poor.

Better yet, I'd like to find it in my heart to do the same.