Why are Christians living like the rest of the world?

[seekthetruth909]

Reply by New_Wineskin:


1) They ARE encouraged to have a relationship w/ Christ over "Law" even when encouraged to tithe.. they aren't asking them to be under law, but using God's OT standard for giving.

2) Can I ask how you KNOW how "high" this % is who claim to tithe yet don't?
Are you directly involved in seeing each person's offering who claims they tithe to make such a statement?

As far as Christians giving less to charity, I can vouch for our household that we give entirely to our church's (or thru other ministry's)CHARITY funds which go directly into our local community, (or into other charities like Samaritan's Purse) which is FULL of unwed/teen mothers and people barely making ends meet. & they just finished a toys for tots/shoebox drive to give toys to kids in hospitals & overseas, etc.

I'd much rather give thru the church BECAUSE WHEN THE CHURCH DELIVERS THE AID TO THE PEOPLE DIRECTLY, THEY ARE ALSO GIVEN THE GOSPEL with it.

Money & aid are helpful, but CHRIST is the source who can turn their life around, giving much greater aid in my opinion.​

So, statistically, our household looks like it gives ZERO to charity, yet we do alot of charity THRU our church.
I would suspect many other Christians do as well when they give to their churches.

Nadine once again you have made a good point. You are absolutely right about possible misleading statistics. But your theory only works if you have a charitable Christian church and not one that spends most of its money on salaries, grand buildings, and social program. Pastor Rich Warren said he recently found over 2000 verses in the bible in regards to helping the poor. He had a doctorate in theology but had somehow missed all these verses. Many churches ignore these verses and focus more on self-absorbed programs for their members. Only a very small portion of their budget goes towards missions and charity. This is a sharp contrast to the New Testament church in the bible. God has blessed you if you have found a good and charitable church committed to following the gospel. Sorry for getting off topic but I guess it’s all related to Christians living like the rest of the world.

God Bless

 

[seekthetruth909]

Long answer. Because Christianity takes in the trash of the world who are easily manipulated when someone says hey we care about you. They then try to change them through brainwashing, only it doesn't work because it's like a wife trying to change her husband, it never works. So they then put them in a large room with all of the already brainwashed people, call it worship or a seminar, and go to work manipulating them by showing them the little kids in the world who have worse than them and get the selfish pigs to think for one second about someone other than themselves. But when they walk out of that room they realize hey I'm still the same person and go back to being what they always were trash. Only now they have a new title... Christian!

Could you pleas elaborate? What are possible solutions to these problems?

God Bless

 

[Eryk]

If there is going to be any renewal movement in American Christendom, anything that renounces worldliness--

It will be promptly and loudly denounced as "legalistic" by mainstream Evangelicals. And they'll call it a cult.

That's how we'll know it has arrived.

If it's the real deal, it'll affirm the historic, basic doctrines of the faith, it'll worship God not leaders, it'll make radical demands on how we live, and it'll embarrass the hell out of churches that don't get with the program.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadine once again you have made a good point. You are absolutely right about possible misleading statistics. But your theory only works if you have a charitable Christian church and not one that spends most of its money on salaries, grand buildings, and social program. Pastor Rich Warren said he recently found over 2000 verses in the bible in regards to helping the poor. He had a doctorate in theology but had somehow missed all these verses. Many churches ignore these verses and focus more on self-absorbed programs for their members. Only a very small portion of their budget goes towards missions and charity. This is a sharp contrast to the New Testament church in the bible. God has blessed you if you have found a good and charitable church committed to following the gospel. Sorry for getting off topic but I guess it’s all related to Christians living like the rest of the world.

God Bless

I should have specified, some of these charitable things are done directly by us bringing in food and other supplies directly.
Not coming out of our tithe. And yes, other parts of our tithe do go to other funds they set aside at the church.

I truly understand people's concern, but I also take issue with the heavy criticism of the church, God's people and Pastoral Salary.

I think if you get too far imbalanced in EITHER direction, you risk causing some harm.
I realize it's a fragile system & balance, but I do also go where we're led, which is what we are currently doing until God leads us to do otherwise.

peace

 

[Nadiine]

If there is going to be any renewal movement in American Christendom, anything that renounces worldliness--

It will be promptly and loudly denounced as "legalistic" by mainstream Evangelicals. And they'll call it a cult.

That's how we'll know it has arrived.

If it's the real deal, it'll affirm the historic, basic doctrines of the faith, it'll worship God not leaders, it'll make radical demands on how we live, and it'll embarrass the hell out of churches that don't get with the program.

I think I need a few more specifics in your post to fully understand what yo'ure talking about? sorry

 

[Eryk]

I think I need a few more specifics in your post to fully understand what yo'ure talking about? sorry

Radically modest people who live simply, forsake materialism, and will not be lured by carnal entertainments. They judge THEMSELVES and serve others. Their lives are equally marked by compassion and passionate worship. They are devoted to the study of, and submission to, the Word of God. They are DIFFERENT. If we could make a movement out of this, that'll really be something. Because we flunked the test of prosperity, and now all we do is complain about other people.

 

[seekthetruth909]

Radically modest people who live simply, forsake materialism, and will not be lured by carnal entertainments. They judge THEMSELVES and serve others. Their lives are equally marked by compassion and passionate worship. They are devoted to the study of, and submission to, the Word of God. They are DIFFERENT. If we could make a movement out of this, that'll really be something. Because we flunked the test of prosperity, and now all we do is complain about other people.

Excellent point!

 

[seekthetruth909]

Recently at a church closely affiliated with ours, the police arrested a pastor during the service for stealing $100,000. A friend asked me to find the newspaper article about the incident online. When I typed in “Pastor arrested” at Google I was astonished to find over a 100 stories of pastors in the USA being arrested for everything from murder, rape, child molestation, to stealing.
It was very discouraging but it relates to the problems of the modern church today and it’s failure to follow the God’s Spirit.

God Bless

 

[pdfiddler]

ERYK- "But this I confess unto thee,that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets"; Acts 24 v14 KJV

 

[Nadiine]

Recently at a church closely affiliated with ours, the police arrested a pastor during the service for stealing $100,000. A friend asked me to find the newspaper article about the incident online. When I typed in “Pastor arrested” at Google I was astonished to find over a 100 stories of pastors in the USA being arrested for everything from murder, rape, child molestation, to stealing.
It was very discouraging but it relates to the problems of the modern church today and it’s failure to follow the God’s Spirit.
God Bless

To everyone finding problems w/ the church/leaders today, I only HOPE that with the criticism & critiques of the problems we're seeing that we're also PRAYING for those who fall & for a revival in the house of the Lord and in us all!?? We're ALL just one step away from a huge fall if we aren't careful.

1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

Pro 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.
​

This honestly doesn't surprise me right now Seek - I know not everyone will agree w/ my eschatological viewpoint but all the signs we're given in the bible as to the 2nd Coming of Christ, I believe are all here!!

Paul said:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;​

And, as I've given in another post, 1 Pet. 4:17 JUDGMENT BEGINS IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD.
If God doesn't clean HIS house first, how are we LIGHT to a dying, corrupt world?

I truly believe that people are being prompted to make their final choices in who they'll serve. It's my hope that in the exposing of crimes in the Leadership, that it will lead to genuine repentance.
MANY church leaders right now are being exposed - it's been happening for a few years now actually.

THIS ONLY TELLS ME THE TIMES ARE SHORT & to be ready for Christ to return.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. ​

 

[marke]

First, do you have any reviews from any Christian sources for this book? I'm a little skeptical of the secular media because they will jump on any bandwagon as long as it bashes Christianity in general, and not just evangelicalism. Your question should read "Why do Evangelicals behave just like the rest of the world"? Since the group Sider has chosen to focus on is the Evangelicals not Lutherans, Methodists, Protestants, Presbyterians (by the way, giving is huge in the Presbyterian churches), etc.

The simple reason that Evangelicals or Christians as you've stated it, look like the rest of the world is because they most likely have not been presented with sound biblical teaching and do not understand why they need a savior or what it even means to be saved. I was part of the Evangelical movement for a few years and then part of a non-denom church and all I heard week in and week out were topical sermons. I kept hearing how God loved me, and how He desired a relationship with me, and how He sent His son to die for me so He could have a relationship with me. I also heard that all I needed to do since I was basically a good person, was to ask Jesus into my heart and all would be forgiven. There was no public confession of sin, we never recited a creed, such as the Apostle's, the Nicene or the Athanasian creed, nor did we ever hear any of these mentioned. The Apostle's Creed is a very basic summation and statement of faith for Christians. It's been said that if you can not affirm the statements in that creed, chances are you're not a Christian.

First, where in the bible does it tell you to "ask Jesus into your heart" and where does it say you're a good person? All this feel good Christianity is poison to the true gospel message. If you're not hearing Christ crucified, died, buried, and risen for your sin or if you've never heard that, then you're in real trouble. You have no reason to be a Christian. The message we're hearing should be Christ-centered and cross-focused, if it isn't, something is seriously wrong. All the warm fuzzies of how Jesus loves you may make you feel all warm and good inside, but you won't recognize your need for a savior, something most Evangelical churches leave out of their gospel presentations. Until the law of God breaks you and proves to you that you have lived a life that is in opposition to God, until you know God's standard and know how you measure up to that standard, and everyone falls short, you will not know why you need a savior. That in short is why Evangelicals and Christians in all denominations and non-denominations look like the rest of the world.

Oh my. Well said.

Let us begin a gospel of truth and return to looking inward, into the church and the New Testament, rather than outward as per the ministers of error.

When we can start walking the walk inside the Church that Jesus envisioned together, the effects will spill out into the community and every one will be attracted to those who follow the gospel of truth contained in NT scripture as was envisioned.

For example. On another thread the question was asked "Where did Jesus give his followers permission to kill another human?" Over a thousand views, plenty of opinions, but not a single NT line of scripture supporting the assertion that a Christian may kill another human.

So why is this wrong thinking myth defended so strongly as "Truth"? We, the world of Christians from many nations, tested this assertion right here and found this belief that a Christian has permission to kill is lacking and our beliefs should be corrected to conform to this new information.

NT scripture regarding killing speaks against it and killing other humans is not something a Christian wants to be doing.

Most, who once propagated this myth which exists without scriptural basis prospered from this bible study and grew to recognize the sin and asked forgiveness. Others still hold on to this myth and faith in myths is no faith at all.

The Word is contained in the New Testament. There you will find the truth.

Anyway, let's all strive to return to the gospel of truth.

Good post.

God Bless.



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[marke]

Long answer. Because Christianity takes in the trash of the world who are easily manipulated when someone says hey we care about you. They then try to change them through brainwashing, only it doesn't work because it's like a wife trying to change her husband, it never works. So they then put them in a large room with all of the already brainwashed people, call it worship or a seminar, and go to work manipulating them by showing them the little kids in the world who have worse than them and get the selfish pigs to think for one second about someone other than themselves. But when they walk out of that room they realize hey I'm still the same person and go back to being what they always were trash. Only now they have a new title... Christian!

Ouch.

We all have our faults, but I don't think that is what you are talking about here.

More like a basic core kindness and compassion that can be seen in who holds open doors, helps out and other little things. Someone who puts others before themselves on a day to day basis inside AND outside church.

Is there a song in their heart or a scowl in their soul? This is how we know true followers. The joy overflows and can be seen in everyday actions consistently.

Then there are others. We hear stuff like "They are on a different level" and other excuses in response to their behavior, but they are only excuses for people who haven't changed and found the joy of the Lord.

Many are called, but few are chosen. Some people have this basic kindness and compassion as servants to others and others don't.

You see it in their actions and the things they support which is why we see so many denominations. Each living in its own error. Birds of a feather flock together, but the bottom line is faith in wrong teaching is no faith at all.

We need to throw out the "religion" and all faiths return to a gospel of truth contained in NT scripture.

God Bless.

 

[marke]

Here is what Jesus have to say to your question.

Matthew 24:5 (KJV)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:6 (KJV)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 21:8 (KJV)
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

And this is why we must read and study the New Testament which contains "Christian" teachings and not other books so not to be deceived.

Anyone can tell you anything and if you follow blindly, you fall into a ditch.

Lies and deceit are the tools of those who stand against the Christ. Not those who live in Christ.

Good Post!

God Bless.

 

[marke]

Nadine once again you have made a good point. You are absolutely right about possible misleading statistics. But your theory only works if you have a charitable Christian church and not one that spends most of its money on salaries, grand buildings, and social program. Pastor Rich Warren said he recently found over 2000 verses in the bible in regards to helping the poor. He had a doctorate in theology but had somehow missed all these verses. Many churches ignore these verses and focus more on self-absorbed programs for their members. Only a very small portion of their budget goes towards missions and charity. This is a sharp contrast to the New Testament church in the bible. God has blessed you if you have found a good and charitable church committed to following the gospel. Sorry for getting off topic but I guess it’s all related to Christians living like the rest of the world.

God Bless

Off Topic? This is about as ON TOPIC as you can get.

These points you express need to be said.

Churches have become more like exclusive country clubs who feed only themselves. A local church brought in $210,000 and less than $10,000 made it back into assisting groups in the community. Isn't that a little backwards? How can the work of Jesus happen if the funds are all consumed in operations? It can't.

Great post. Thank you for standing up for the gospel.

God bless.

 

[Zecryphon]

Oh my. Well said.

Let us begin a gospel of truth and return to looking inward, into the church and the New Testament, rather than outward as per the ministers of error.

When we can start walking the walk inside the Church that Jesus envisioned together, the effects will spill out into the community and every one will be attracted to those who follow the gospel of truth contained in NT scripture as was envisioned.

For example. On another thread the question was asked "Where did Jesus give his followers permission to kill another human?" Over a thousand views, plenty of opinions, but not a single NT line of scripture supporting the assertion that a Christian may kill another human.

So why is this wrong thinking myth defended so strongly as "Truth"? We, the world of Christians from many nations, tested this assertion right here and found this belief that a Christian has permission to kill is lacking and our beliefs should be corrected to conform to this new information.

NT scripture regarding killing speaks against it and killing other humans is not something a Christian wants to be doing.

Most, who once propagated this myth which exists without scriptural basis prospered from this bible study and grew to recognize the sin and asked forgiveness. Others still hold on to this myth and faith in myths is no faith at all.

The Word is contained in the New Testament. There you will find the truth.

Anyway, let's all strive to return to the gospel of truth.

Good post.

God Bless.



[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

Marke said: "When we can start walking the walk inside the Church that Jesus envisioned together, the effects will spill out into the community and every one will be attracted to those who follow the gospel of truth contained in NT scripture as was envisioned."

I'd agree with this statement if the world didn't hold Christians to an impossibly high standard. Once the world knows you claim to be a Christian, the bar is autoamtically set so high, that no one but Christ Himself could attain that goal. When we as Christians fall in our walk with the Lord and sin, and the world sees it, all that does is confirm in the mind of others that we are not "true Christians" and don't practice what we preach. Why are we held to such a high standard by people who are no different than us when it comes to sinful living? Because it's a way for them to justify their unjustifiable behavior.

"For example. On another thread the question was asked "Where did Jesus give his followers permission to kill another human?" Over a thousand views, plenty of opinions, but not a single NT line of scripture supporting the assertion that a Christian may kill another human."

Are you ever gonna get past this? This is the third time you have mentioned this to me. Every instinct we have comes from God and I believe that the instinct of self-preservation is given from God too. What right did the Jewish people in the OT have to go and wipe out their enemies by kililng them and plundering their treasures? Because they say, God told them to, it's okay? I've read all the Left Behind books, and while the theology is askew to say the least, they're still fun to read and entertaining. In those books the believers killed the followers of anti-Christ and it was okay. They felt absolutely horrible about it, because they knew it was wrong, but they still did it. What justification did they have? Should they have just thrown down their arms and agreed to be slaughtered and have the truth die with them? I realize this is an extreme and fictional example, but the heart of the matter is still the same. Self-preservation. Should we all just sit back and let nature or other people wipe us off the planet simply because we know that when we die we're going to Heaven? I mean how many people won't hear the gospel from us, because we just gave up and let that crimminal who broke into our house kill us without defending ourselves?

"NT scripture regarding killing speaks against it and killing other humans is not something a Christian wants to be doing."

Nobody wants to kill. There isn't a Christian on here, who just can't wait to go home, grab a gun and start shooting people. Why are you trying to hijack this thread and continue the thread you have previously started? Because you ddin't get an answer you liked?

"Most, who once propagated this myth which exists without scriptural basis prospered from this bible study and grew to recognize the sin and asked forgiveness. Others still hold on to this myth and faith in myths is no faith at all."

Then become a Quaker, I understand they're pacifist.

"The Word is contained in the New Testament. There you will find the truth."

The truth is contained in the whole Bible.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Please read the reviews of the book below and comment on why most Christians are no different in many aspects as non-Christians.
Thank you

God Bless

I will agree,This is the issue that is the greatest threat to our faith. Our walk has become compromised. Our faith must be in evidence for it to be counted. Cakewalk salvation,is a false concept.

 

[Nadiine]

I will agree,This is the issue that is the greatest threat to our faith. Our walk has become compromised. Our faith must be in evidence for it to be counted. Cakewalk salvation,is a false concept.

While i agree, we also have to be aware that the 'entire' world of Christianity (each christian) isn't fallen, isn't compromising, & isn't failing.
Those who leave God/the faith, I believe were never His to begin with; did he really "lose" them?

I know we all see issues going on that we recognize & it's worth discussion & observation, but my bigger fear is that we start taking on some sort of "defeatest" mindset where we see MOSTLY the negative or sit in judgmental views on the Christian body or focusing mainly on the bad.

As God said: 1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Doing a word study on "remnant" might be interesting.

THE JOY OF THE LORD IS OUR STRENGTH.

 

[Harlan Norris]

While i agree, we also have to be aware that the 'entire' world of Christianity (each christian) isn't fallen, isn't compromising, & isn't failing.
Those who leave God/the faith, I believe were never His to begin with; did he really "lose" them?

I know we all see issues going on that we recognize & it's worth discussion & observation, but my bigger fear is that we start taking on some sort of "defeatest" mindset where we see MOSTLY the negative or sit in judgmental views on the Christian body or focusing mainly on the bad.

As God said: 1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Doing a word study on "remnant" might be interesting.

THE JOY OF THE LORD IS OUR STRENGTH.

Certainly not all have gone astray,yet the church is for the most part, a commercial enterprise. It's up to the individuals within the church to refuse to partake. If we do,that aspect will be starved out. So, if we see our tithe going for a men's retreat,cruise to the Yucatan. As I did in one church I attended. That should set off an alarm,that church funds are being used in an unorthodox manner. I left that church.

 

[Nadiine]

Certainly not all have gone astray,yet the church is for the most part, a commercial enterprise. It's up to the individuals within the church to refuse to partake. If we do,that aspect will be starved out. So, if we see our tithe going for a men's retreat,cruise to the Yucatan. As I did in one church I attended. That should set off an alarm,that church funds are being used in an unorthodox manner. I left that church.

God's order for worship in the OT was completely "commercialized". They had one main temple.
It didn't fail or go wrong. When Christianity started, it was in CONTRAST to what those in the large temple of God were continuing to promote: "LAW" rather than grace.

New Christians were often persecuted & started out in homes, but that doesn't mean the Bible says you must STAY in homes/small buildings & not GROW. Does it? If so, please show me the scriptures that say this so I can change my views.

I can tell you from personal knowledge what happens in small home gatherings.
Someone opens their home up, you get a good teacher, he teaches, and more and more Christians start showing up. Soon enough, the house is too small to hold the people that come.

SO THEY MOVE SOMEWHERE TO ACCOMODATE THE GROWING NUMBERS.
This is HOW churches grow & spread. I can't figure out how growth is "BAD"??? or leads to a majority of corrupted churches?

Growth is good, the KEY is, if your Pastor/teacher can handle such growth.
If not, then it's possible that person was never called by God to be His servant in Eldership!

It isn't that the CHURCH/growth makes them fall, it's that they themselves have personal/spiritual issues which they haven't dealt with.

I have to disagree on this line of criticism with church size. It's not an automatic indicator of failure, corruption or compromise necessarily.

 

[pdfiddler]

marke-- "We need to throw out the the Religion" Once again.


Nadiine-- In reference to another thread. Denominations are a product of a man-made Religious system.All Religion has them (called by sects or tribe or.....ect.). Denomination is another word for Division. There is no division in Christ! Denominations are a sign of mans imput. They will all fall and those who are entangled in them will fall with them. "The Kingdom of God is within you" and "you'll stand before His throne and drink and out of your belly will flow rivers of living water". That's how it starts. That is the church. Or walk with God starts at the Throne of God and ends at the Throne of God. Also "I AM THE WAY ,THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE." The Way ,is the way to the Throne. The Truth, is the revelation of yourself and Him when you stand before Him. The Life, is the impartation of His life as we stand in the radiance of His GLORY. For all this, we have to thank our Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't say I am The Way,The Facts and The LIFE. Sometimes you can have all the Facts and not have the Truth. The truth comes by revelation,not by facts. The Bible is to be our guide and conformation as we move on to know and relate to the Lord. Not a book of facts or a source of debate. May you all have a wonderful and enlightened experience on your journey to know The Lord.