Why an eternal hell?

[seeingeyes]

again the quote you have provided relating to the universalism of the early church has no other sources. Where did He get his information from? Is it legit? The fact that blogs about this have failed to gather info on it, should be alarming.

Oh, I don't know about that. You'd have to research the reliability of Schaff-Herzog, I guess. I thought you were looking for the context of the quote...I don't know anything about the original source, sorry.

secondly, karl barth is known as the father of liberal theology, meaning He is un orthodox.

From Wikipedia (I know, it's Wikipedia, but it's fast):
"Although Barth's theology rejected German Protestant liberalism, his theology has usually not found favour with those at the other end of the theological spectrum: confessionalists and fundamentalists. His doctrine of the Word of God, for instance, holds that Christ is the Word of God, and does not proceed by arguing or proclaiming that the Bible must be uniformly historically and scientifically accurate, and then establishing other theological claims on that foundation."

If the man can irritate both liberals and conservatives, he's worth a read at least.

 

[createdtoworship]

Oh, I don't know about that. You'd have to research the reliability of Schaff-Herzog, I guess. I thought you were looking for the context of the quote...I don't know anything about the original source, sorry.



From Wikipedia (I know, it's Wikipedia, but it's fast):
"Although Barth's theology rejected German Protestant liberalism, his theology has usually not found favour with those at the other end of the theological spectrum: confessionalists and fundamentalists. His doctrine of the Word of God, for instance, holds that Christ is the Word of God, and does not proceed by arguing or proclaiming that the Bible must be uniformly historically and scientifically accurate, and then establishing other theological claims on that foundation."

If the man can irritate both liberals and conservatives, he's worth a read at least.

I know the contexts, but as for legitimacy, it sounds like He went out on a limb and just spouted docrine out. No proof whatsoever. Even books on the matter have failed to provide a legitimate source for this phenomena.

secondly, here is a quote about karl barth...

In 1919 modern theology took a new turn when Karl Barth, trained in liberal theology, rejected it but did not return completely to conservative theology. Neo-orthodoxy was born. Neo-orthodoxy stressed an experiential encounter with God through a “leap of faith.” While neo-orthodox theologians differed widely in their views, none accepted an inspired Bible. Many rejected the historicity of Christ’s bodily resurrection: the Bible was to be considered geschichte (story) rather than history.
Enns, P. P. (1997, c1989). The Moody handbook of theology (406). Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press.

 

[Armistead14]

universalism is more easily rebuffed than annihilitionism.

simply by all the verses on repentance to be saved (over a hundred of them in the new testament alone)

but conditional immortality is annihilation, I forgot....so they do have one school teaching that....I presume it's the school started by clement and origen. They were the only real liberals of the founding fathers, clement even reverted time again to support eternal torment. Hence the title liberal (don't know where he stands)

The church in one Ephesus basically taught the principle of annihilation.

You had 3 views in the early church

Universal Salvation
Eternal Punishment
Annihilation

The churches earliest creeds endorsed UR, why you may feel it's easy to rebuff, it is very difficult, Annihilation if fairly easy IMO to rebuff. The 4 leading theological schools were mostly UR, certainly in leadership and forming the earliest creeds. If you want to understand their beliefs, just study their writings, with no reference to any outside source. Study the early creeds. Even later ET'ers like Augustine. using latin, declared most of these early church fathers as heretics, because of their beliefs in
universal salvation

We must also consider the many doctrines Christians debate using many of the same verses that the above use, mainly, OSAS vs. NOSAS, predestination, etc....Course each group thinks they're right...

Many of the church fathers constantly changed their mind, Tertullian, played a large part in ET, but joined the Montanist, a heretical sect and his many pagan influences played roles in his life. He also had little understanding of the greek, more latin. It's not so much they were wishy washy, they had no bibles, they were all heavily influenced by their cultures, most had some pagan influences.... In one decade you were a great father, the next you were a heretic, it happened to several of the church fathers as the church defined and redefined doctrine. This went on for 100's of years. Later church fathers also condemned many early church fathers of heresy, wrongly so....

 

[createdtoworship]

The church in one Ephesus basically taught the principle of annihilation.

You had 3 views in the early church

Universal Salvation
Eternal Punishment
Annihilation

The churches earliest creeds endorsed UR, why you may feel it's easy to rebuff, it is very difficult, Annihilation if fairly easy IMO to rebuff. The 4 leading theological schools were mostly UR, certainly in leadership and forming the earliest creeds. If you want to understand their beliefs, just study their writings, with no reference to any outside source. Study the early creeds.

We must also consider the many doctrines Christians debate using many of the same verses that the above use, mainly, OSAS vs. NOSAS, predestination, etc....Course each group thinks they're right...

Many of the church fathers constantly changed their mind, Tertullian, played a large part in ET, but joined the Montanist, a heretical sect and his many pagan influences played roles in his life. He also had little understanding of the greek, more latin. It's not so much they were wishy washy, they had no bibles, they were all heavily influenced by their cultures, most had some pagan influences.... In one decade you were a great father, the next you were a heretic, it happened to several of the church fathers as the church defined and redefined doctrine. This went on for 100's of years. Later church fathers also condemned many early church fathers of heresy, wrongly so....

you have an overtly simplistic view of the early church. There were wide range of doctrines from the rapture to the jewelry of women. To say it had only three views is like I said, overtly simplistic.

secondly, you have no sources even for your views of the church at ephesus. other than some links to tentmakers. But that is hardly proof of anything. (the source you linked has it's origination at tentmakers.com). Which is not a source, it's just a website.

thirdly, quoting one father that made a major change in theology (turtullian) is not proof that "many church fathers changed their mind"

 

[dollarsbill]

No, if he chooses to torture anybody at all forever and ever, then he is not perfect, much less benevolent.

But He drowned all but 8 and burned Sodom alive? I see no consistency in what you are saying.

 

[dollarsbill]

If people didn't believe in eternal torment to begin with, who in their right mind would come up with such a concept, that because God is infinite, sin must also be infinite, and the punishment as well?

The NT clearly teaches eternal punishment. That's why you are disputing. Otherwise you wouldn't bother.

 

[dollarsbill]

there is no way to know for sure what hell is nor how long,

As the NT says, ETERNAL. That's how long.

 

[dollarsbill]

These conversations will always boil down to 'who God is'.

God can indeed send humans to the eternal fire.

 

[dollarsbill]

Funny how that passage gets misused as a defense of the doctrine of eternal torment, rather than as a call to care for the poor and weak among us.

What's more important than escaping "eternal punishment"? Nothing.

 

[dollarsbill]

Can you show me even one English translation that indicates that the eternal punishment Christ refers to is "eternal torment"?

Yes.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[dollarsbill]

I am not the only idiot who believes the Scriptures teach eternal damnation and torment. Here we have the words of a leading exegete of Scripture.

Bye, Oz

Can you imagine those HEE-HAWing Jesus when He mentioned eternal punishment in the eternal fire? Just like today!!!

 

[Armistead14]

you have an overtly simplistic view of the early church. There were wide range of doctrines from the rapture to the jewelry of women. To say it had only three views is like I said, overtly simplistic.

secondly, you have no sources even for your views of the church at ephesus. other than some links to tentmakers. But that is hardly proof of anything. (the source you linked has it's origination at tentmakers.com). Which is not a source, it's just a website.

thirdly, quoting one father that made a major change in theology (turtullian) is not proof that "many church fathers changed their mind"

Can hardly see where my views on the early church are simplistic, I thought we were discussing main themes, not jewelry. I clearly said all the church fathers were effected by many cultural issues and doctrine constantly changed...., not sure what your point is, do you have need to discuss jewelry?

Regarding the church at Ephesus.. The key is Irenaeus, certainly a great church leader, but also a strong believer in annihilation. Dr Philip Schaff is highly considered by most denominations regarding his study of the early theological schools and is qouted on numerous sites of all faiths, as is Dr. Kurtz. His works are used in most schools of theology from Catholic to
Protestant. I attended Bob Jones for two years and studied some of his works there, thus I referred to the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia. You may not like him as a source, but most do. If you have sources to counter him, then refute his works. The same with Dr. Kurtz, another leading writer on the early church.


Schaff, Philip. History of the Christian Church in 8 volumes.

• Schaff, Philip. 'A Library of Religious Poetry. A collection of The Best Religious Poems of all Ages and Tongues'. London etc. 1881.
• Schaff, Philip. Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical notes, volume I, volume II and volume III
• Schaff, Philip. The Creeds of the Evangelical Protestant Churches
• The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge. Schaff edited the European Herzog encyclopedia for an American audience. This is a revision of that work.
• Ante-Nicene Fathers and two series of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers in 38 volumes total. Edited by Schaff et al.
• Philip Schaff's Letter book, private correspondence from June 2, 1868 to August 26, 1881.

"The apostle John is regarded as the founder in Ephesus of the school of Asia Minor, from which came Polycarp, Melito, and Irenaeus, the great defender of the Church against the Gnostic heresies, and Hippolytus his hearer and follower.

Dr. Schaff on Irenaeus.​

Of this father Dr. Schaff says: "Irenaeus was the leading representative of the Asiatic Johannean school in the second half of the second century, the champion of Catholic orthodoxy against Gnostic heresy, and the mediator between the Eastern and Western Churches. He united a learned Greek education and philosophical penetration with practical wisdom and moderation, and a sound sense of the simple and essential in Christianity. We may plainly trace in him the influence of the spirit of John" ("Church History," vol. i., p. 488).

Dr. Kurtz.​

Of this school Dr. Kurtz says that it was "distinguished by its firm adherence to the Bible, its strong faith, its scientific liberality, its conciliatory tone, and its trenchant polemics against heretics" ("Text-book of Church History," p. 137, Philadelphia). It is, therefore, the more remarkable that the doctrine of future eternal punishment was not taught by any of this school so far as we know, nor the doctrine of universal restoration; but, on the other hand, the doctrine of the final annihilation of the wicked was clearly taught by so eminent a man as Irenaeus. "

Other sources, Canon F.W. Farrar, Dr. J.W. Hanson ,Thomas Allin.

However, if you want to get to the meat of the matter, study the works of Irenaeus, it's clear he taught annihilation. If you want we can get into some of his works...but not tonight, I'm going to bed...

Take care..

Edit: That's not to say Schaff or Kurtz or the others I mentioned believe in annihilation, I don't think any of them do.

 

[dies-l]

Yes.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Different passage altogether, different context, referring to a different subject that has no connection whatsoever to the people referenced in the Matthew passage. Not to mention that your argument on this passage has been thoroughly debunked by several posters. Other than that your reference is completely apropos.

 

[dies-l]

What's more important than escaping "eternal punishment"?

Living in faithful obedience to Christ.

 

[Believe the Impossible]

Be careful of what you write (scribe) and teach other people. We should not be debating something we cannot know this side of heaven, but we should be the watchman that ensures that men will never have to find out that eternal torment does exist.

Ezekiel 33:1-16
(NIV1984)
33 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, 3 and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4 then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the sword comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. 5 Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.’

7 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die, ’ and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

10 “Son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what you are saying: “Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live? ”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.’ 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right— 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.

 

[createdtoworship]

Can hardly see where my views on the early church are simplistic, I thought we were discussing main themes, not jewelry. I clearly said all the church fathers were effected by many cultural issues and doctrine constantly changed...., not sure what your point is, do you have need to discuss jewelry?

Regarding the church at Ephesus.. The key is Irenaeus, certainly a great church leader, but also a strong believer in annihilation. Dr Philip Schaff is highly considered by most denominations regarding his study of the early theological schools and is qouted on numerous sites of all faiths, as is Dr. Kurtz. His works are used in most schools of theology from Catholic to
Protestant. I attended Bob Jones for two years and studied some of his works there, thus I referred to the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia. You may not like him as a source, but most do. If you have sources to counter him, then refute his works. The same with Dr. Kurtz, another leading writer on the early church.


Schaff, Philip. History of the Christian Church in 8 volumes.

• Schaff, Philip. 'A Library of Religious Poetry. A collection of The Best Religious Poems of all Ages and Tongues'. London etc. 1881.
• Schaff, Philip. Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical notes, volume I, volume II and volume III
• Schaff, Philip. The Creeds of the Evangelical Protestant Churches
• The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge. Schaff edited the European Herzog encyclopedia for an American audience. This is a revision of that work.
• Ante-Nicene Fathers and two series of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers in 38 volumes total. Edited by Schaff et al.
• Philip Schaff's Letter book, private correspondence from June 2, 1868 to August 26, 1881.

"The apostle John is regarded as the founder in Ephesus of the school of Asia Minor, from which came Polycarp, Melito, and Irenaeus, the great defender of the Church against the Gnostic heresies, and Hippolytus his hearer and follower.

Dr. Schaff on Irenaeus.​

Of this father Dr. Schaff says: "Irenaeus was the leading representative of the Asiatic Johannean school in the second half of the second century, the champion of Catholic orthodoxy against Gnostic heresy, and the mediator between the Eastern and Western Churches. He united a learned Greek education and philosophical penetration with practical wisdom and moderation, and a sound sense of the simple and essential in Christianity. We may plainly trace in him the influence of the spirit of John" ("Church History," vol. i., p. 488).

Dr. Kurtz.​

Of this school Dr. Kurtz says that it was "distinguished by its firm adherence to the Bible, its strong faith, its scientific liberality, its conciliatory tone, and its trenchant polemics against heretics" ("Text-book of Church History," p. 137, Philadelphia). It is, therefore, the more remarkable that the doctrine of future eternal punishment was not taught by any of this school so far as we know, nor the doctrine of universal restoration; but, on the other hand, the doctrine of the final annihilation of the wicked was clearly taught by so eminent a man as Irenaeus. "

Other sources, Canon F.W. Farrar, Dr. J.W. Hanson ,Thomas Allin.

However, if you want to get to the meat of the matter, study the works of Irenaeus, it's clear he taught annihilation. If you want we can get into some of his works...but not tonight, I'm going to bed...

Take care..

Edit: That's not to say Schaff or Kurtz or the others I mentioned believe in annihilation, I don't think any of them do.

funny but I read from his own mouth :


Originally said by Irenaeus

...Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send 'spiritual wickednesses,' and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)


Originally said by Irenaeus

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

I believe his own wording rather than your history books.

 

[holo]

holo,

Isn't Matthew 25:31-46 in your Bible? Verses 41-46 read:

These are the words of Jesus.

Oz

​

Yes, and the concept of eternal torture isn't found there. Eternal fire doesn't mean eternal life in the fire. In fact, Jesus compared it to a farmer throwing unfruitful branches in the fire. They don't burn forever. Jesus talked about He who could destroy the body AND the soul.

And again, why would God do such an infinitely evil and unjust thing to anyone? Can you think of a single person who deserves eternal torture?

 

[holo]

But He drowned all but 8 and burned Sodom alive? I see no consistency in what you are saying.

It's possible that a loving and all-knowing and almighty God has some sort of plan in the long run, to restore all things and indeed make it so that Christ becomes "all in all" as the bible says. I find it hard to believe that God made it perfect but one wee little man managed to ruin God's work and now God had to come up with a Plan B, whereby he gets to save a few of us but decides to send the vast majority to hell. I think God runs the universe according to his will, which we can't fathom completely. It's God who hardened Pharao, who sent an evil spirit into Saul, it is God who hardens whom he wants to harden and saves those he wants to save. Salvation belongs to the Lord, even your faith is a gift, according to God's own measure. So I'm leaning towards God having some sort of good reason for killing all those innocents and doing seemingly evil things on earth. Maybe we'll all be resurrected. I don't know.

What I do know is that God isn't evil. Tormenting someone eternally is 100% evil. It's infinitely evil. And it would mean man and/or satan actually have triumphed over God, if you look at the sheer numbers.

 

[holo]

The NT clearly teaches eternal punishment. That's why you are disputing. Otherwise you wouldn't bother.

No, I don't dispute eternal punishment. I dispute the idea of eternal suffering, the idea that both sinners and saints are given eternal life, only in different places. I dispute the idea that God can both be good and evil and cruel beyond what we can possibly imagine.

 

[holo]

What's more important than escaping "eternal punishment"? Nothing.

And that's another thing I dispute: that the ultimate and therefore only real reason for seeking God is to avoid eternal torture.

People will say "seek God for he is love" but what they actually mean is "seek God because if you don't he is going to fry your butt forever and ever and ever (unless you can muster a satisfying amount of faith)."