Why an eternal hell?

[seeingeyes]

What's more important than escaping "eternal punishment"? Nothing.

This really is quite an important admission in your walk, brother.

Do you have any scripture that tells us that this should be Priority One?

 

[createdtoworship]

This really is quite an important admission in your walk, brother.

Do you have any scripture that tells us that this should be Priority One?

matthew 10:28, luke 12:5

 

[Armistead14]

And that's another thing I dispute: that the ultimate and therefore only real reason for seeking God is to avoid eternal torture.

People will say "seek God for he is love" but what they actually mean is "seek God because if you don't he is going to fry your butt forever and ever and ever (unless you can muster a satisfying amount of faith)."

In much like Pascal's wager

The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

I grew up in very fundy churches. Most every service ended in a speech of being tortured in hell. It starts with the common, "every head bowed, every eye closed" Then raise your hand if your lost...Then the pleading about not going to hell, how bad hell is, etc...Basically God loves you more than anyone, but reject him, he will eternally torture you. I've seen 1000's over the years run to alters to get their "free get out of hell card", only doing so out of fear, no real understanding of God or Christ, they simply don't want to suffer for eternity. You often see little change or they fall back into the world.

Imagine meeting someone you loved, but they hadn't accepted you. You beg them for love, but they reject. Finally, you pour gas all over them, stand back and light a match and tell them to declare love or they're going to burn. They will declare love out of fear, but inwardly hate you, it's a relationship based on total fear, then revolves around total guilt. Many become miserable, judgmental and often get trapped into legalistic codes.
Sadly many of these become so miserable, they seem to enjoy the thought of others being tortured, they feel they've given up so much to follow God, that hell for others is payback. This might be the reason so few actually go out and witness, I can think of no other reason.

 

[createdtoworship]

In much like Pascal's wager

The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

I grew up in very fundy churches. Most every service ended in a speech of being tortured in hell. It starts with the common, "every head bowed, every eye closed" Then raise your hand if your lost...Then the pleading about not going to hell, how bad hell is, etc...Basically God loves you more than anyone, but reject him, he will eternally torture you. I've seen 1000's over the years run to alters to get their "free get out of hell card", only doing so out of fear, no real understanding of God or Christ, they simply don't want to suffer for eternity. You often see little change or they fall back into the world.

Imagine meeting someone you loved, but they hadn't accepted you. You beg them for love, but they reject. Finally, you pour gas all over them, stand back and light a match and tell them to declare love or they're going to burn. They will declare love out of fear, but inwardly hate you, it's a relationship based on total fear, then revolves around total guilt. Many become miserable, judgmental and often get trapped into legalistic codes.
Sadly many of these become so miserable, they seem to enjoy the thought of others being tortured, they feel they've given up so much to follow God, that hell for others is payback. This might be the reason so few actually go out and witness, I can think of no other reason.

Is this much different than death by suffocation of an entire race of humans simply because they were wicked and you didn't like creating them? I mean if you toss out the water, why not toss the baby out too?

 

[seeingeyes]

Is this much different than death by suffocation of an entire race of humans simply because they were wicked and you didn't like creating them? I mean if you toss out the water, why not toss the baby out too?

If those suffocating can never die, then no, it's not different.

 

[seeingeyes]

matthew 10:28, luke 12:5

So you agree that nothing is more important than escaping eternal punishment?

 

[Armistead14]

So you agree that nothing is more important than escaping eternal punishment?

If you love someone and for whatever reason they don't accept you, would you have a need to torture them? Think about it, doe's true love need to torture rejection? Doesn't the bible say love your enemies? Doesn't the bible say do good unto those that hurt you? The whole theme of the bible is love, even extreme love for those that reject or want to hurt us, yet God is ultimate love and will torture billions that rejected him, most following the beliefs of their culture. Why would God tell us to love one way, when he isn't willing to love the same?

In our culture, crazed people who are madly in love often kill or attack when they're not loved back. Most studies show they're ego driven, full of pride and usually abused. We lock them up. Is a God that tortures any better? Why does true love even have a need to torment or torture anyone for all eternity, what is gained by it, what glory is in it?

 

[dollarsbill]

Different passage altogether, different context, referring to a different subject that has no connection whatsoever to the people referenced in the Matthew passage. Not to mention that your argument on this passage has been thoroughly debunked by several posters. Other than that your reference is completely apropos.

It's perfectly clear. Spiritual gymnastics do not change what God said.

 

[dollarsbill]

Living in faithful obedience to Christ.

But that would include escaping Hell fire.

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, and the concept of eternal torture isn't found there. Eternal fire doesn't mean eternal life in the fire. In fact, Jesus compared it to a farmer throwing unfruitful branches in the fire. They don't burn forever. Jesus talked about He who could destroy the body AND the soul.

We have clearly established that it is forever.

Revelation 20:10-11 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And again, why would God do such an infinitely evil and unjust thing to anyone? Can you think of a single person who deserves eternal torture?

Again, why would God drown all but 8, including children?

 

[dollarsbill]

It's possible that a loving and all-knowing and almighty God has some sort of plan in the long run, to restore all things and indeed make it so that Christ becomes "all in all" as the bible says. I find it hard to believe that God made it perfect but one wee little man managed to ruin God's work and now God had to come up with a Plan B, whereby he gets to save a few of us but decides to send the vast majority to hell. I think God runs the universe according to his will, which we can't fathom completely. It's God who hardened Pharao, who sent an evil spirit into Saul, it is God who hardens whom he wants to harden and saves those he wants to save. Salvation belongs to the Lord, even your faith is a gift, according to God's own measure. So I'm leaning towards God having some sort of good reason for killing all those innocents and doing seemingly evil things on earth. Maybe we'll all be resurrected. I don't know.

What I do know is that God isn't evil. Tormenting someone eternally is 100% evil. It's infinitely evil. And it would mean man and/or satan actually have triumphed over God, if you look at the sheer numbers.

Please tell us who can tell God that He cannot burn sinners forever.

 

[dollarsbill]

No, I don't dispute eternal punishment. I dispute the idea of eternal suffering, the idea that both sinners and saints are given eternal life, only in different places. I dispute the idea that God can both be good and evil and cruel beyond what we can possibly imagine.

So you're saying that drowning all but 8 is good, but burning humans forever is evil?

 

[dollarsbill]

And that's another thing I dispute: that the ultimate and therefore only real reason for seeking God is to avoid eternal torture.

Can you think of a better reason to repent than burning forever? Have you ever been burned?

People will say "seek God for he is love" but what they actually mean is "seek God because if you don't he is going to fry your butt forever and ever and ever (unless you can muster a satisfying amount of faith)."

Same thing.

 

[dollarsbill]

This really is quite an important admission in your walk, brother.

Do you have any scripture that tells us that this should be Priority One?

Have you ever been burned? Was that the most important thing in your life at that instant?

 

[Armistead14]

We have clearly established that it is forever.

Revelation 20:10-11 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again, why would God drown all but 8, including children?

The verse is better read they will be tormented for ages and ages "aion"
Day and night denote time, you really think the sun rises and sets in hell, it's is a metaphor denoting time, not eternity.

 

[dies-l]

But that would include escaping Hell fire.

If that is a person's primary motive, then that person is not truly following Christ.

 

[createdtoworship]

If those suffocating can never die, then no, it's not different.

all I am saying is that torture is torture, doesn't matter how long it is.

 

[createdtoworship]

So you agree that nothing is more important than escaping eternal punishment?

yeah

 

[Believe the Impossible]

all I am saying is that torture is torture, doesn't matter how long it is.

Where in the Bible is the word 'torture' used or is this a man-made definition of eternal punishment?

Seriously, if men on this earth had the power to 'torture' someone forever, down in their dark, labirynths of horror, you don't think they would if they wouldn't get caught?

Wouldn't Hitler still be burning if people could decide. For goodness sakes, Christ was given to death over a murderer and you believe the people of this earth wouldn't take full advantage if they were capable? Men are evil and put them together with torches and pitchforks and we know what they are capable of. Do we forget so quickly what we are made of? And even if we don't say it out loud, how many of us think and feel it in our hearts?

God didn't give the sentence in order to just be mean, but promised eternal life and therefore any justice given to evil 'immortal' people would entail, by logic, an eternal punishment. This is not His fault; but then everyone always wants someone to blame for their wish to live wickedly without consequence.

To think that people on this earth condemn people to death with the death penalty are somehow serving justice and yet God is just some 'madman' who loves to see people suffer.

Oh, how wrathful are we when we see a child molester on the stand; what do we wish to do to them? Honestly? How much more would we wish to see them 'burn' forever? We demand justice here on earth and cry out when it isn't done, but somehow our Creator isn't allowed this same allowance?

Le'ts not place mankind's evil thoughts aside here, let's lay it out on the table. We've all had horrible thoughts and if we wouldn't be punished we all would have accomplished some pretty horrible things in our lives...all of us.

When God stated that none of us was good, He wasn't lying, but we love to lie to ourselves in order to justify our actions and thoughts.

Each one of us knows the depths of our own evil, although we'll never admit it...we are not gods, we are going to die. Decide how you wish to spend eternity.

 

[dies-l]

yeah

Therein lies another source of our disagreement. I would say that loving and trusting God is what is important. Fear of punishment might be a temporary tool to help a person see the need for this, but it is never by itself going to lead to a lasting and meaningful devotion to Christ. And, I would be seriously concerned for anyone that saw avoiding punishment as the most important aspect of their Christian walk.