Why an eternal hell?

[dies-l]

I've never known anyone who 'enjoys the thought of eternal torture'. I think that is a cruel statement.

Since it is a doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture but is propagated by most evangelicals, I can think of no other explanation.

 

[dies-l]

So, mortal beings who worship the beast suffer eternal torment, but nobody else who is wicked does? All the adultery, sorcery, murder, rape, and demonism merits wiping out of existence, but, worshiping the beast is REALLLLLY bad and so it merits eternal fire?

I can be no clearer than what I've been. If you don't accept it, fine.

Huh? You are again responding to things I never said. The truth if that you are basing your eternal torment on one verse that is far from being clear and unambiguous on the topic and ignoring the bulk of Scripture, which says that eternal life is not our default position and that the consequence of our sins is death and destruction.

 

[holo]

Will the wicked/unsaved be tormented IN the presence of God or AWAY from his prescence? The bible appears to say both.

 

[holo]

We are eternal beings. How do we know this? Because God is eternal, and He created us in His image.

There are quite a few of God's features we don't have even though we're made in his image. We're not omnipotent, for example, or all-knowing. And not eternal either, as far as I can tell from the bible. On the contrary, in the very beginning God cut people OFF from accessing the Tree Of Life(tm) so they would NOT live forever. And time and again throughout the bible the saved will be given eternal life. And the alternative is death. That's one thing the bible appears to be pretty clear about.

After the Fall, all men have sinned against God. Our sin is against an Infinite, Eternal being. And we have incurred an infinite penalty.

What, why, how? Because God is infinite, a finite trespass must result in an infinite punishment? Who made that rule?

And that penalty WILL BE assessed! One way or another. God in His love found a way for mankind to return to Him, and not violate His eternal justice. We can accept Christ's death for our sins, have Him pay the infinite penalty, and live forever as eternal beings with God. Or, we can reject Christ's offer, and pay the infinite penalty ourselves, and suffer forever as eternal beings separated from God.

If the penalty is infinite torture, then Jesus must be tortured infinitely to pay it. If God can throw the rules around as he wishes, why let Jesus get off the hook so easily while on the other hand punishing people infinitely more than they deserve? Jesus being tortured to death is nothing, NOTHING compared to 348901263454905730247650897230987543265809872039487523948570987325908709543 millennia of torture (and that wouldn't even be the beginning of it).

 

[dollarsbill]

So, mortal beings who worship the beast suffer eternal torment, but nobody else who is wicked does? All the adultery, sorcery, murder, rape, and demonism merits wiping out of existence, but, worshiping the beast is REALLLLLY bad and so it merits eternal fire?

I can be no clearer than what I've been. If you don't accept it, fine.

Don't forget Hitler.

 

[dollarsbill]

Since it is a doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture but is propagated by most evangelicals, I can think of no other explanation.

Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20 aren't in your Bible?

"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[dollarsbill]

If the penalty is infinite torture, then Jesus must be tortured infinitely to pay it.

How do you figure that?

 

[holo]

Did all the jews, homosexuals, gypsies, political dissidents and mentally challenged people deserve to die in the death camps? Heck, did ONE of them deserve to die there?

You know the answer, of course. They didn't. But yet, now that they've died a horrible death, they deserve to be tortured indefinitely.

You guys really don't see how that's, at best, 100% in conflict with a righteous God? Jesus berated people for attributing their sickness to God! But here we go, saying that God -GOD, not satan- have tortured people for about six thousand years with no intention of stopping, ever. It's actually blasphemous.

 

[dies-l]

Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20 aren't in your Bible?

"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

They are, but none of them support eternal tormentalism. Interesting that 331 posts in and not a single citation that clearly and unequivocally supports a doctrine that is held to be central to the faith of most evangelicals. At the same time, several citations to Scripture that seem to clearly and unequivocally undermine said doctrine.


To start:
Logically, eternal life is a prerequisite to eternal torment. Only the redeemed have eternal life. (John 3:16; John 5:24; Romans 2:7)
The consequence of sin is death/destruction (Gen. 2:17; Matthew 7:13; Romans 6:23)

 

[holo]

I've never known anyone who 'enjoys the thought of eternal torture'. I think that is a cruel statement.

Since it is a doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture but is propagated by most evangelicals, I can think of no other explanation.

I think the explanation is that for a lot of people (used to be like that for me), the gospel actually becomes pointless unless the alternative is eternal fire and brimstone. It says a lot about the kind of gospel I used to believe, and in hindsight it's no wonder I always felt guilty for being "ashamed of the gospel" - I was ashamed of the gospel, because half of the "good message" is actually the worst message anyone can possibly imagine.

dollarsbill,
what would it do to your relationship with God, and your evangelism, if you ceased to believe in eternal torment?

 

[holo]

I've never known anyone who 'enjoys the thought of eternal torture'. I think that is a cruel statement.

Don't forget Hitler.

Hitler deserves eternal torture? In the OT there's the "eye for an eye" rule. That's fair.

 

[dies-l]

How do you figure that?

Logic. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, then the only way that that price can be paid by another is by receiving eternal torment. The very doctrine of atonement points to annihilation and away from eternal torment.

 

[dollarsbill]

They are, but none of them support eternal tormentalism.

They are so clear a child can understand them without anyone explaining.

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 "; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 8 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[holo]

How do you figure that?

Because the bible says he took our punishment. If God can just reduce the punishment because it's Jesus taking it, why didn't he let Jesus go with, say, a severe beating? Why on earth (or heaven) did God make Jesus be tortured and die if he didn't really have to?

 

[dollarsbill]

dollarsbill,
what would it do to your relationship with God, and your evangelism, if you ceased to believe in eternal torment?

That would be fine with me if the Bible didn't mention punishment in the eternal fire several times. But it does.

 

[dollarsbill]

Logic. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, then the only way that that price can be paid by another is by receiving eternal torment. The very doctrine of atonement points to annihilation and away from eternal torment.

That is not logic. Jesus died a HORRIBLE death to provide salvation. How did He deserve that? He didn't. He didn't even sin once.

 

[dies-l]

That is not logic. Jesus died a HORRIBLE death to provide salvation. How did He deserve that? He didn't. He didn't even sin once.

But, to be a substitution, he would have to suffer the same consequence that we were supposed to suffer. According to you, the wages of sin is not death or even a horrible death, it is eternal torment. So, for Jesus to be our substitutionary atonement, he would need to suffer eternal torment. He didn't, so either the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is wrong or the doctrine of eternal torment is wrong. They cannot logically both be right.

 

[dies-l]

That would be fine with me if the Bible didn't mention punishment in the eternal fire several times. But it does.

Exactly, it mentions punishment in the eternal fire. What happens to temporal things placed in an eternal fire; they are destroyed. Once again, your own arguments point to annihilation, not eternal torment.

 

[dies-l]

They are so clear a child can understand them without anyone explaining.

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 "; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 8 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Torment? Yes. Eternal? No.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Eternal torment? Yes. Unredeemed man? No.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Eternal torment? Yes. Unredeemed man? No.

 

[dollarsbill]

But, to be a substitution, he would have to suffer the same consequence that we were supposed to suffer.

Doesn't sound logical to me.

According to you, the wages of sin is not death or even a horrible death, it is eternal torment.

I have never said the wages of sin is not death. The wages of sin is indeed spiritual and physical death. Neither meaning we cease to exist.

So, for Jesus to be our substitutionary atonement, he would need to suffer eternal torment.

Saying that over and over doesn't make it true.

He didn't, so either the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is wrong or the doctrine of eternal torment is wrong. They cannot logically both be right.

I see no logic in any of that.