Why an eternal hell?

[tankerG]

Who is the "they"?

The verse says who they are. People.

 

[dies-l]

The verse says who they are. People.

It does? Really? That's all? What translation are you seeing that in? Mine refers to "those who worship the beast and its image".

 

[createdtoworship]

No, that explains why it is an eternal fire, even though people don't live there eternally. It also explains the Revelation proof text. Immortal beings suffer there eternally. Mortals are destroyed by it.

it says right in the verse that mortals will go there.

secondly, I do not see any verses indicating men will be non existent in hell.

 

[holo]

I'll have to go to bed now, I'll refute all you who disagree with me tomorrow

But I suddenly came to think about these two verses:

Rev 14
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

2 Thess
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

I expect to see some proper exegesis from y'all in the morning

 

[holo]

-double post-

 

[tankerG]

It does? Really? That's all? What translation are you seeing that in? Mine refers to "those who worship the beast and its image".

Sounds like people to me.

 

[dies-l]

Sounds like people to me.

That may be the case, but I am more interested in what it actually says than what it "sounds like to you". If you are going to base your doctrine of hell on one single passage of Scripture, then you had better make sure that the words in that passage mean what you think they do.

As I see it, it could be talking about people who worship the beast or it could be talking about angels who worship the beast or it could be talking about some other "them" entirely. What it is clearly not talking about is anyone who does not worship the beast and its symbol. So, unless you can show me something that tells me that all unredeemed people will worship the beast, then I think we need to look to another passage to figure out the fate of the unredeemed. And, we have that, throughout the NT -- they face death and destruction -- not eternal torment.

 

[dies-l]

it says right in the verse that mortals will go there.

Yes, it does, but it says nothing about them staying there forever.

If I said "I am going to Walmart, which is open all night, to buy some groceries" (which would be kinda like eternal torment in Hell), your reasoning would indicate that I intend to stay there all night.

The verse tells us, arguably, that the fire is eternal, that it is prepared for evil immortal beings (the devil and his angels) and that mortal people will go there. It is a giant leap of logic to assume that there is any intention here to state what will happen to the mortals who go there and how long they will be there. Fortunately, we have plenty of other passages in Scripture that tell us that the fate of the wicked is their destruction. Seems fitting that people destined for destruction would be sent to an eternal fire.

secondly, I do not see any verses indicating men will be non existent in hell.

I do not see any verses indicating that men will be eternally existent in Hell. If there are no evidence that x is true, but no evidence that x is false, the proper default position is not to assume that x is true.

Fortunately, in this case, there is sufficient Scripture to demonstrate that x (eternal torment) is false, so we need not even consider the logical fallacy that you are attempting to put forth here.

 

[createdtoworship]

Fortunately, we have plenty of other passages in Scripture that tell us that the fate of the wicked is their destruction. Seems fitting that people destined for destruction would be sent to an eternal fire.

so you admit that the verse does speak of eternal fire, now we can move to the next verses.

I do not see any verses indicating that men will be eternally existent in Hell. If there are no evidence that x is true, but no evidence that x is false, the proper default position is not to assume that x is true.

Fortunately, in this case, there is sufficient Scripture to demonstrate that x (eternal torment) is false, so we need not even consider the logical fallacy that you are attempting to put forth here.

if the standard says that hell exists the burden of proof lies on you who claim that it doesn't.

 

[dies-l]

so you admit that the verse does speak of eternal fire, now we can move to the next verses.

if the standard says that hell exists the burden of proof lies on you who claim that it doesn't.

I've never said that hell doesn't exist. And, I've never said that hell was not an eternal fire. I have said that it destroys people rather than eternally tormenting them. It would seem from your comments above that you are not understanding this.

 

[createdtoworship]

I've never said that hell doesn't exist. And, I've never said that hell was not an eternal fire. I have said that it destroys people rather than eternally tormenting them. It would seem from your comments above that you are not understanding this.

again you would have to present your case, if you have done it already....then simply give post numbers for it.

 

[dies-l]

again you would have to present your case, if you have done it already....then simply give post numbers for it.

Perhaps, I'll feel motivated to do so later. At this point, I am simply quite frustrated that you would argue with me before you had taken the time to get a basic grasp of what I was saying. If you haven't been paying attention up until now, I have little reason to have confidence that you will from here on out.

 

[Timothew]

again you would have to present your case, if you have done it already....then simply give post numbers for it.

Why do you continue to ignore the evidence and then claim the evidence has not been presented. What have we been doing for the past three years? I know that you really want to believe that the lost are tormented in hell forever, but is that any reason to just ignore any evidence to the contrary?

 

[Armistead14]

Why do you continue to ignore the evidence and then claim the evidence has not been presented. What have we been doing for the past three years? I know that you really want to believe that the lost are tormented in hell forever, but is that any reason to just ignore any evidence to the contrary?

I think some enjoy the thought of eternal torture. I think many fundies are so miserable trapped in their legalisms, watching others enjoy life, that they feel hell will be payback for people who enjoyed life and heaven will be their payback for their misery on earth.

Back when I worked in missions, our mission group came in contact with a tribe in New Guinea, it was probably just a few months before this tribe had even seen a white man. Even though we preached the gospel, most remained in their cultural beliefs passed generation to generation. The thought crossed my mind, did we damn all these people for bringing them a gospel they would culturally reject? It can take decades to culturally change a tribe. Many will say if a person has never heard the gospel, God will judge them fairly or another way, so why not leave it at that, rather than bringing the gospel to a people that will reject it, rather than give it to them and damn them for all eternity. The better news is the gospel doesn't condemn, but saves all, but in God's order and timing, even after death.

 

[tankerG]

That may be the case, but I am more interested in what it actually says than what it "sounds like to you"....As I see it, it could be talking about people who worship the beast or it could be talking about angels who worship the beast or it could be talking about some other "them" entirely.

No, that explains why it is an eternal fire, even though people don't live there eternally. It also explains the Revelation proof text. Immortal beings suffer there eternally. Mortals are destroyed by it.

I quoted Revelation 14:6 to prove that this statement is not true. And you can see that it settles that.

We can now address your claim that the verse is specifically referring only to those who are alive at that particular moment in time and worship the beast. Well, just prior to this (in Rev. 14:6) we see an angel proclaiming the gospel to those who dwell on the earth. (People - not angels). It was preached to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people. (In other words, everybody). And it's the everlasting gospel. (Obviously the gospel of Jesus Christ that we are to preach to the world). Those people then were given the same invitation as every person has been given throughout history. The gospel is preached, and people have to accept it by faith or not. If they don't, then, they remain condemned. And they eventually wind up in hell, regardless of when they lived.

The same word "everlasting" is used in Rev. 14:11 for the smoke "rising" forever. This lines up well with Matt. 25, where those who are accepted by the Lamb go into everlasting life, and those who are rejected by the Lamb go into everlasting punishment - the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Consistent and understandable.

It is a horrible scenario. Absolutely. Which is why I am called to persevere (Rev. 14:12), and why I work hard to snatch those from the fire (Jude 23). I want to be the tool through which God can save as many as He can.

 

[dies-l]

I quoted Revelation 14:6 to prove that this statement is not true. And you can see that it settles that.

We can now address your claim that the verse is specifically referring only to those who are alive at that particular moment in time and worship the beast. Well, just prior to this (in Rev. 14:6) we see an angel proclaiming the gospel to those who dwell on the earth. (People - not angels). It was preached to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people. (In other words, everybody). And it's the everlasting gospel. (Obviously the gospel of Jesus Christ that we are to preach to the world). Those people then were given the same invitation as every person has been given throughout history. The gospel is preached, and people have to accept it by faith or not. If they don't, then, they remain condemned. And they eventually wind up in hell, regardless of when they lived.

The same word "everlasting" is used in Rev. 14:11 for the smoke "rising" forever. This lines up well with Matt. 25, where those who are accepted by the Lamb go into everlasting life, and those who are rejected by the Lamb go into everlasting punishment - the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Consistent and understandable.

It is a horrible scenario. Absolutely. Which is why I am called to persevere (Rev. 14:12), and why I work hard to snatch those from the fire (Jude 23). I want to be the tool through which God can save as many as He can.

This post would be a great example to use in a biblical hermeneutics course of what eisegesis looks like. There is no logical connection between the Scripture you quote and the conclusion that you reach. The Revelation passage is very clearly referring to those who worship the beast, whether they be people or angels. Any interpretation that adds more detail than that is adding to Scripture, and I think that the author of Revelation had something to say about that.

 

[tankerG]

I've never said that hell doesn't exist. And, I've never said that hell was not an eternal fire. I have said that it destroys people rather than eternally tormenting them. It would seem from your comments above that you are not understanding this.

Well, we've got you two steps along the way.

The idea that hell destroys people rather than torturing them is not a new argument. The Watchtower has been propagating this false security for over 100 years. They are terrified of hell, so they have found a way to make it "palatable". That's the best way I can say it. And many people follow the same reasoning.
We are eternal beings. How do we know this? Because God is eternal, and He created us in His image. One of the aspects of Himself that He created in us was eternal existence. He has put eternity in our hearts (Eccl. 3:11). And eternal means eternal!
After the Fall, all men have sinned against God. Our sin is against an Infinite, Eternal being. And we have incurred an infinite penalty. And that penalty WILL BE assessed! One way or another. God in His love found a way for mankind to return to Him, and not violate His eternal justice. We can accept Christ's death for our sins, have Him pay the infinite penalty, and live forever as eternal beings with God. Or, we can reject Christ's offer, and pay the infinite penalty ourselves, and suffer forever as eternal beings separated from God.

 

[tankerG]

This post would be a great example to use in a biblical hermeneutics course of what eisegesis looks like. There is no logical connection between the Scripture you quote and the conclusion that you reach. The Revelation passage is very clearly referring to those who worship the beast, whether they be people or angels. Any interpretation that adds more detail than that is adding to Scripture, and I think that the author of Revelation had something to say about that.

So, mortal beings who worship the beast suffer eternal torment, but nobody else who is wicked does? All the adultery, sorcery, murder, rape, and demonism merits wiping out of existence, but, worshiping the beast is REALLLLLY bad and so it merits eternal fire?

I can be no clearer than what I've been. If you don't accept it, fine.

 

[dollarsbill]

Nope. I find it odd that you are basing your argument on your assumption that I don't know how to read. The problem is that you are engaging in eisegesis (injecting your own assumptions and beliefs into the text) and then wondering why I don't see them there. The text says that the fire is eternal; it doesn't say that individual people stay there eternally.

Rev 14 and 20 "forever and ever". Same as eternal punishment and eternal life, NEVER ending.

 

[dollarsbill]

I think some enjoy the thought of eternal torture. I think many fundies are so miserable trapped in their legalisms, watching others enjoy life, that they feel hell will be payback for people who enjoyed life and heaven will be their payback for their misery on earth.

Back when I worked in missions, our mission group came in contact with a tribe in New Guinea, it was probably just a few months before this tribe had even seen a white man. Even though we preached the gospel, most remained in their cultural beliefs passed generation to generation. The thought crossed my mind, did we damn all these people for bringing them a gospel they would culturally reject? It can take decades to culturally change a tribe. Many will say if a person has never heard the gospel, God will judge them fairly or another way, so why not leave it at that, rather than bringing the gospel to a people that will reject it, rather than give it to them and damn them for all eternity. The better news is the gospel doesn't condemn, but saves all, but in God's order and timing, even after death.

I've never known anyone who 'enjoys the thought of eternal torture'. I think that is a cruel statement.