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dollarsbill said:
Since it is a doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture but is propagated by most evangelicals, I can think of no other explanation.
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dollarsbill said:I've never known anyone who 'enjoys the thought of eternal torture'. I think that is a cruel statement.
tankerG said:So, mortal beings who worship the beast suffer eternal torment, but nobody else who is wicked does? All the adultery, sorcery, murder, rape, and demonism merits wiping out of existence, but, worshiping the beast is REALLLLLY bad and so it merits eternal fire?
I can be no clearer than what I've been. If you don't accept it, fine.
There are quite a few of God's features we don't have even though we're made in his image. We're not omnipotent, for example, or all-knowing. And not eternal either, as far as I can tell from the bible. On the contrary, in the very beginning God cut people OFF from accessing the Tree Of Life(tm) so they would NOT live forever. And time and again throughout the bible the saved will be given eternal life. And the alternative is death. That's one thing the bible appears to be pretty clear about.We are eternal beings. How do we know this? Because God is eternal, and He created us in His image.
What, why, how? Because God is infinite, a finite trespass must result in an infinite punishment? Who made that rule?After the Fall, all men have sinned against God. Our sin is against an Infinite, Eternal being. And we have incurred an infinite penalty.
If the penalty is infinite torture, then Jesus must be tortured infinitely to pay it. If God can throw the rules around as he wishes, why let Jesus get off the hook so easily while on the other hand punishing people infinitely more than they deserve? Jesus being tortured to death is nothing, NOTHING compared to 348901263454905730247650897230987543265809872039487523948570987325908709543 millennia of torture (and that wouldn't even be the beginning of it).And that penalty WILL BE assessed! One way or another. God in His love found a way for mankind to return to Him, and not violate His eternal justice. We can accept Christ's death for our sins, have Him pay the infinite penalty, and live forever as eternal beings with God. Or, we can reject Christ's offer, and pay the infinite penalty ourselves, and suffer forever as eternal beings separated from God.
Don't forget Hitler.So, mortal beings who worship the beast suffer eternal torment, but nobody else who is wicked does? All the adultery, sorcery, murder, rape, and demonism merits wiping out of existence, but, worshiping the beast is REALLLLLY bad and so it merits eternal fire?
I can be no clearer than what I've been. If you don't accept it, fine.
Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20 aren't in your Bible?Since it is a doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture but is propagated by most evangelicals, I can think of no other explanation.
How do you figure that?If the penalty is infinite torture, then Jesus must be tortured infinitely to pay it.
Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20 aren't in your Bible?
"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
I've never known anyone who 'enjoys the thought of eternal torture'. I think that is a cruel statement.
I think the explanation is that for a lot of people (used to be like that for me), the gospel actually becomes pointless unless the alternative is eternal fire and brimstone. It says a lot about the kind of gospel I used to believe, and in hindsight it's no wonder I always felt guilty for being "ashamed of the gospel" - I was ashamed of the gospel, because half of the "good message" is actually the worst message anyone can possibly imagine.Since it is a doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture but is propagated by most evangelicals, I can think of no other explanation.
How do you figure that?
They are so clear a child can understand them without anyone explaining.They are, but none of them support eternal tormentalism.
Because the bible says he took our punishment. If God can just reduce the punishment because it's Jesus taking it, why didn't he let Jesus go with, say, a severe beating? Why on earth (or heaven) did God make Jesus be tortured and die if he didn't really have to?How do you figure that?
That would be fine with me if the Bible didn't mention punishment in the eternal fire several times. But it does.dollarsbill,
what would it do to your relationship with God, and your evangelism, if you ceased to believe in eternal torment?
That is not logic. Jesus died a HORRIBLE death to provide salvation. How did He deserve that? He didn't. He didn't even sin once.Logic. If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, then the only way that that price can be paid by another is by receiving eternal torment. The very doctrine of atonement points to annihilation and away from eternal torment.
That is not logic. Jesus died a HORRIBLE death to provide salvation. How did He deserve that? He didn't. He didn't even sin once.
That would be fine with me if the Bible didn't mention punishment in the eternal fire several times. But it does.
They are so clear a child can understand them without anyone explaining.
Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 "; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house 8 for I have five brothersin order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Doesn't sound logical to me.But, to be a substitution, he would have to suffer the same consequence that we were supposed to suffer.
I have never said the wages of sin is not death. The wages of sin is indeed spiritual and physical death. Neither meaning we cease to exist.According to you, the wages of sin is not death or even a horrible death, it is eternal torment.
Saying that over and over doesn't make it true.So, for Jesus to be our substitutionary atonement, he would need to suffer eternal torment.
I see no logic in any of that.He didn't, so either the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is wrong or the doctrine of eternal torment is wrong. They cannot logically both be right.
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