Why an eternal hell? (2)

[seeingeyes]

From talking to many people about this in the past, I've found that some almost treat the Bible as a restaurant menu. I'll explain...

As in....
Heaven, rewards, eternal life, Jesus, healing. Sounds nice. They like this, so keep.

But then there's...
Judgement, commandments, the unforgivable sin, hell, punishment, people on fire. Sounds not as nice. Disregard.


Like they are picking and choosing the parts they would like to have, like a restaurant menu. By doing so, they are moulding the real God into a God that suits them, one that is more adjusted to suit them better, one that is more lenient towards their lives, their sin, etc.

But our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God that tore open the heavens to throw Lucifer and his fallen angels out. The God that threw Adam and Eve out of paradise for just 1 sin. A God that does have a justified wrath. But the Bible also says that God derives no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked. Not like humans, who may find some form of satisfaction in getting revenge. He is a God of pure love, if you could look into the eyes of Jesus it would be like beams of liquid love pouring out and melting you. But the God of love is also a perfect righteous judge, and whatever punishment He lays out....it will fit the crime. And the crime for rejecting His love is a big, big crime. And to believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will have no eternal consequences is....unbiblical to say the least.

There it is. God is love, but...

If I weren't such a lightweight, I'd turn that phrase into a drinking game.

"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."(1 John 4:16ish)

No 'buts' about it.

"Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you;
he rises to show you compassion.
For the Lord is a God of justice.
Blessed are all who wait for him!"(Isaiah 30:18)


Why does the Lord show compassion? Because He is a God of justice. Justice is compassion and compassion is justice.


His ways are way way better than our ways.

 

[holo]

More than once I have made the point that torture is not what the Bible talks about in eternity, but torment is. So it does not amount to the same thing. In some way there will be torment that will always persist, but it will be in fairness in whatever amount it is. It does not mean there must be torture.

Alright, torment then. But eternal torment pretty much amounts to torture, especially considering that it's, well, eternal. In any case, it can not be both everlasting and fair.

 

[holo]

Where did you get the idea that torture is an aspect of hell?

Not from the bible, but from a lot of christians.

 

[holo]

but thats exactly my point, God is not bound by our civil laws and our human rules.

True, He's not bound by them. He will do exactly as He pleases. But just like God can't create a rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it, He can not torment people forever AND be a righteous judge.

God doesn't follow our idea of justice. Instead, we try to follow his. If He's like so many christians believe, we would be justified in torturing little children to death for stealing candy. And that wouldn't even be near to God's "justice."

 

[holo]

they don't get eternal life, they get eternal death.....eternally dying but never able to come to the point of death until the end....which never comes.

"Eternal dying" isn't found in the bible, and it's an oxymoron. If you never get to die, it's not dying.

 

[holo]

my question is does He have a soul? He can choose to do right and wrong and therefore has a soul. So why is a soul living a thousand years? Thats my question.

I don't know that you must have a soul to choose right or wrong. In any case it depens on what 'soul' means, and I honestly don't know exactly what is meant there, and if it's the same meaning every place the word is found in the bible. There's talk about mind, soul, spirit, life, and I don't know if they're synonymous. I did read somewhere that in Genesis the word 'soul' is actually 'life' in the original language.

 

[FredVB]

There is just judgment for sin (and of course that is fair), although there is physical death since the fall in sin, the souls God made are not subject to that physical process, they were made to last.

Does the bible say that?

(Asking sincerely, not condescendingly.)

It is logical, and that is with what the Bible says. God is just, and that does mean he is fair, even when we with our limitations do not see the fairness, while he sees it all. And we are told, rightly, that he cannot lie. It is taught physical death resulted with the coming of sin, and there are scriptures that show eternal judgment, even eternal torment, it is without any basis and so without meaning to say it is for any certain ones and not for others, as our souls are also the image of God they do persist in light of these and a few other things even as the physical body is subject to death. If souls were not to last it would be a separate additional thing to accomplish giving eternal life for any to be redeemed, but those created in the image of God were not to come to an end.

More than once I have made the point that torture is not what the Bible talks about in eternity, but torment is. So it does not amount to the same thing. In some way there will be torment that will always persist, but it will be in fairness in whatever amount it is. It does not mean there must be torture.

Alright, torment then. But eternal torment pretty much amounts to torture, especially considering that it's, well, eternal. In any case, it can not be both everlasting and fair.

That is how you judge it, but you are not rightly in God's place. In the same way, I can ask. Does the Bible say that?


Torture would imply somone there to inflict something, but those who are going to be in anguish are not because of that having to be tortured by anyone.

 

[Black36]

Not from the bible, but from a lot of christians.

Don't go by Christians. Most don't read the Bible.

 

[holo]

It is logical, and that is with what the Bible says. God is just, and that does mean he is fair, even when we with our limitations do not see the fairness, while he sees it all. And we are told, rightly, that he cannot lie. It is taught physical death resulted with the coming of sin, and there are scriptures that show eternal judgment, even eternal torment

Extremely few verses can be interpreted that way, especially in the original language. The bible speaks about the important things often and in many ways. The fate of the majority of people ever to have lived isn't so peripheral as to not even be mentioned in the OT and at best obscurely in the NT.

If souls were not to last it would be a separate additional thing to accomplish giving eternal life for any to be redeemed, but those created in the image of God were not to come to an end.

The soul that sins shall die. The righteous soul inherits eternal life. You'd have to redefine both 'life' and 'death' to have it mean anything other than, well, life and death. God didn't want the sinful fallen soul to live forever (obviously), therefore He blocked the acccess to the tree of life.

That is how you judge it, but you are not rightly in God's place. In the same way, I can ask. Does the Bible say that?

The bible says God will judge righteously. It also records God berating people for judging others too harshly.

Torture would imply somone there to inflict something, but those who are going to be in anguish are not because of that having to be tortured by anyone.

True, but it would still be God's decision and will that it be so.

I don't know how to get these passages to harmonize:

Revelation 14
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

2 Thess
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

 

[Armistead14]

For those that believe in everlasting hell, when do you feel those lost will be thrown in there? Will it be after everyone bows and confesses Christ as Lord?

 

[Black36]

For those that believe in everlasting hell, when do you feel those lost will be thrown in there? Will it be after everyone bows and confesses Christ as Lord?

Yep, but they won't be thrown any where. Just seperated from their body, God, and the creation. Forever, to think about it. We must share the Gospel diligently.

 

[createdtoworship]

For those that believe in everlasting hell, when do you feel those lost will be thrown in there? Will it be after everyone bows and confesses Christ as Lord?

confessing Lordship does not save,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
matthew 7:21

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't know that you must have a soul to choose right or wrong. In any case it depens on what 'soul' means, and I honestly don't know exactly what is meant there, and if it's the same meaning every place the word is found in the bible. There's talk about mind, soul, spirit, life, and I don't know if they're synonymous. I did read somewhere that in Genesis the word 'soul' is actually 'life' in the original language.

only in the old testament does soul mean life, in the new testament the definition is entirely different.

 

[createdtoworship]

"Eternal dying" isn't found in the bible, and it's an oxymoron. If you never get to die, it's not dying.

what about all the verses that say eternal death?

 

[createdtoworship]

True, He's not bound by them. He will do exactly as He pleases. But just like God can't create a rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it, He can not torment people forever AND be a righteous judge.

God doesn't follow our idea of justice. Instead, we try to follow his. If He's like so many christians believe, we would be justified in torturing little children to death for stealing candy. And that wouldn't even be near to God's "justice."

if they deserve to be punished forever, he can be just and still do it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Where did you get the idea that torture is an aspect of hell?

torture is usually only a term used by antagonists of ET. Torment is what the literal greek states. But it is hard to tell antagonists which words to use and which not to.

 

[Black36]

torture is usually only a term used by antagonists of ET. Torment is what the literal greek states. But it is hard to tell antagonists which words to use and which not to.

Torment in the Biblical sense is a self inflicted condition.

 

[createdtoworship]

Torment in the Biblical sense is a self inflicted condition.

actually it's others inflicted.

torment is not torture
torment is a different greek word than torture

from:
Vine, W. E. ; Unger, Merrill F. ; White, William: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1996, S. 2:637

TORMENT (Noun and Verb)
A. Nouns.
1. basanismos (βασανισμός, 929), akin to basanizo (see toil, No. 2), is used of divine judgments in Rev. 9:5; 14:11; 18:7, 10, 15.¶
2. basanos (βάσανος, 931), primarily “a touchstone,” employed in testing metals, hence, “torment,” is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades, Luke 16:23, 28.¶
Note: In 1 John 4:18, kjv, kolasis, “punishment” (rv), is rendered “torment.” See punishment, No. 3.
B. Verbs.
1. basanizo (βασανίζω, 928), for which see toil, No. 2, is translated “to torment,” (a) of sickness, Matt. 8:6; (b) of the doom of evil spirits, Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; (c) of retributive judgments upon impenitent mankind at the close of this age, Rev. 9:5; 11:10; (d) upon those who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name, 14:10; (e) of the doom of Satan and his agents, 20:10.
2. kakoucheo (κακουχέω, 2558), “to treat evilly,” in the passive voice is translated “tormented” in Heb. 11:37, kjv (rv, “evil entreated”). See suffer, No. 6.
3. odunao (ὀδυνάω, 3600), for which see anguish, B, No. 3, in the passive voice is rendered “I am (thou art) tormented” in Luke 16:24, 25, kjv.
...
TORTURE (Verb)
tumpanizo (τυμπανίζω, 5178) primarily denotes “to beat a drum” (tumpanon, “a kettledrum,” Eng., “tympanal,” “tympanitis,” “tympanum”), hence, “to torture by beating, to beat to death,” Heb. 11:35.¶ In the Sept., 1 Sam. 21:13, “(David) drummed (upon the doors of the city).”¶ The tympanum as an instrument of “torture” seems to have been a wheel-shaped frame upon which criminals were stretched and beaten with clubs or thongs.

 

[Black36]

actually it's others inflicted.

torment is not torture
torment is a different greek word than torture

from:
Vine, W. E. ; Unger, Merrill F. ; White, William: Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville : T. Nelson, 1996, S. 2:637

TORMENT (Noun and Verb)
A. Nouns.
1. basanismos (βασανισμός, 929), akin to basanizo (see toil, No. 2), is used of divine judgments in Rev. 9:5; 14:11; 18:7, 10, 15.¶
2. basanos (βάσανος, 931), primarily “a touchstone,” employed in testing metals, hence, “torment,” is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades, Luke 16:23, 28.¶
Note: In 1 John 4:18, kjv, kolasis, “punishment” (rv), is rendered “torment.” See punishment, No. 3.
B. Verbs.
1. basanizo (βασανίζω, 928), for which see toil, No. 2, is translated “to torment,” (a) of sickness, Matt. 8:6; (b) of the doom of evil spirits, Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; (c) of retributive judgments upon impenitent mankind at the close of this age, Rev. 9:5; 11:10; (d) upon those who worship the Beast and his image and receive the mark of his name, 14:10; (e) of the doom of Satan and his agents, 20:10.
2. kakoucheo (κακουχέω, 2558), “to treat evilly,” in the passive voice is translated “tormented” in Heb. 11:37, kjv (rv, “evil entreated”). See suffer, No. 6.
3. odunao (ὀδυνάω, 3600), for which see anguish, B, No. 3, in the passive voice is rendered “I am (thou art) tormented” in Luke 16:24, 25, kjv.
...
TORTURE (Verb)
tumpanizo (τυμπανίζω, 5178) primarily denotes “to beat a drum” (tumpanon, “a kettledrum,” Eng., “tympanal,” “tympanitis,” “tympanum”), hence, “to torture by beating, to beat to death,” Heb. 11:35.¶ In the Sept., 1 Sam. 21:13, “(David) drummed (upon the doors of the city).”¶ The tympanum as an instrument of “torture” seems to have been a wheel-shaped frame upon which criminals were stretched and beaten with clubs or thongs.

It's inflicted in the sense that God puts one into a state of utter isolation, it's an indirect torment. If that makes sense, in my view.

 

[Armistead14]

confessing Lordship does not save,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
matthew 7:21

So when all bow here, is it more of a forced thing? It does say all will confess to the glory of the father, so it sounds more sincere that those on earth that confess Christ and do evil works. Not sure why God would need or want false praise. I hear many say people in hell wouldn't want heaven anyway, just wonder what this actually means or why it's needed rather than a final breaking of the lost before they're sent to hell.