Why an eternal hell? (2)

[holo]

what do you mean they are not human inventions? We limit God's righteousness and Justice by our own all the time. How would we literally understand the Holy Judge if we didn't compare Him to a civil Judge?

Yes, we compare Him to a civil judge, that's why we conclude that He can not give righteous judgment AND condemn anyone to eternal suffering. The whole basis of justice is to give people what they deserve.

 

[holo]

Hey Holo,

I'm new to the conversation and have not read the entire thread. I'm curious:

What exactly is your issue with hell? What's wrong with it?

I don't have an issue with hell per se, but I do have an issue with the idea that God is going to torture anyone forever. IMO it goes against what the bible says about death and eternal life, and most importantly, against every verse that says God will judge righteously. In short: nobody deserves to be tortured forever. I don't think God wants to do that, and I don't think God has to do that.

 

[FredVB]

I don't have an issue with hell per se, but I do have an issue with the idea that God is going to torture anyone forever.

More than once I have made the point that torture is not what the Bible talks about in eternity, but torment is. So it does not amount to the same thing. In some way there will be torment that will always persist, but it will be in fairness in whatever amount it is. It does not mean there must be torture.

 

[Black36]

I don't have an issue with hell per se, but I do have an issue with the idea that God is going to torture anyone forever. IMO it goes against what the bible says about death and eternal life, and most importantly, against every verse that says God will judge righteously. In short: nobody deserves to be tortured forever. I don't think God wants to do that, and I don't think God has to do that.

Where did you get the idea that torture is an aspect of hell?

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, we compare Him to a civil judge, that's why we conclude that He can not give righteous judgment AND condemn anyone to eternal suffering. The whole basis of justice is to give people what they deserve.

but thats exactly my point, God is not bound by our civil laws and our human rules.

 

[createdtoworship]

So we don't ever actually get eternal life then. But sinners do...

they don't get eternal life, they get eternal death.....eternally dying but never able to come to the point of death until the end....which never comes.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't know much about the false prophet, but I don't think we should assume that he (she?) will automatically share the same fate as us regular sinners.

edit: I shouldn't say "us regular sinners," because we who believe are saints, not sinners.

my question is does He have a soul? He can choose to do right and wrong and therefore has a soul. So why is a soul living a thousand years? Thats my question.

 

[UnionJack]

From talking to many people about this in the past, I've found that some almost treat the Bible as a restaurant menu. I'll explain...

As in....
Heaven, rewards, eternal life, Jesus, healing. Sounds nice. They like this, so keep.

But then there's...
Judgement, commandments, the unforgivable sin, hell, punishment, people on fire. Sounds not as nice. Disregard.


Like they are picking and choosing the parts they would like to have, like a restaurant menu. By doing so, they are moulding the real God into a God that suits them, one that is more adjusted to suit them better, one that is more lenient towards their lives, their sin, etc.

But our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God that tore open the heavens to throw Lucifer and his fallen angels out. The God that threw Adam and Eve out of paradise for just 1 sin. A God that does have a justified wrath. But the Bible also says that God derives no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked. Not like humans, who may find some form of satisfaction in getting revenge. He is a God of pure love, if you could look into the eyes of Jesus it would be like beams of liquid love pouring out and melting you. But the God of love is also a perfect righteous judge, and whatever punishment He lays out....it will fit the crime. And the crime for rejecting His love is a big, big crime. And to believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will have no eternal consequences is....unbiblical to say the least.

 

[AwakenedOne]

Actually, there are. It's symbolism for the false religion that the false prophet will install at the coming of the anti-christ. The great harlot mystery Babylon is that religion. Revelations is tough without a seriously good latin/English dictionary and a lot of patience. Lol

May God Richly Bless you!

The Great Harlot came about when the early Roman Catholic Church was formed. Research the dark ages and what the church was transformed into and what atrocities it committed. The antichrist spirit was present in the early churches and is still present today.

Stop looking to the future for both destruction and redemption. Destruction and redemption are BOTH present now.

 

[Metal Minister]

The Great Harlot came about when the early Roman Catholic Church was formed. Research the dark ages and what the church was transformed into and what atrocities it committed. The antichrist spirit was present in the early churches and is still present today.

Stop looking to the future for both destruction and redemption. Destruction and redemption are BOTH present now.

Who said I was looking to the future for redemption or destruction? If you actually read and understand revelations, you'll see that mystery Babylon is the symbolism for the great false religion. I'm in no way discounting the atrocities of the RCC in the past, and I also happen to believe that it will be the basis for more to come. Remember, we're told their will be many anti-christ's, and I believe the final one will use the seat of the pope for his final false religion.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Metal Minister]

From talking to many people about this in the past, I've found that some almost treat the Bible as a restaurant menu. I'll explain...

As in....
Heaven, rewards, eternal life, Jesus, healing. Sounds nice. They like this, so keep.

But then there's...
Judgement, commandments, the unforgivable sin, hell, punishment, people on fire. Sounds not as nice. Disregard.

Like they are picking and choosing the parts they would like to have, like a restaurant menu. By doing so, they are moulding the real God into a God that suits them, one that is more adjusted to suit them better, one that is more lenient towards their lives, their sin, etc.

But our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God that tore open the heavens to throw Lucifer and his fallen angels out. The God that threw Adam and Eve out of paradise for just 1 sin. A God that does have a justified wrath. But the Bible also says that God derives no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked. Not like humans, who may find some form of satisfaction in getting revenge. He is a God of pure love, if you could look into the eyes of Jesus it would be like beams of liquid love pouring out and melting you. But the God of love is also a perfect righteous judge, and whatever punishment He lays out....it will fit the crime. And the crime for rejecting His love is a big, big crime. And to believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will have no eternal consequences is....unbiblical to say the least.

Amen, well said.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[AwakenedOne]

The Antichrist is the 'false religious christ' which is the false christ that requires only worship and believing in him and does not require the works of love. It only requires faith and not true faith that produces good works. It is a form of godliness but denying the true power. They teach to pray, accept that christ in your heart, go to church but say nothing of loving your neighbors as yourself or producing good works. It is religious and full of self righteousness and hypocrisy.

The false prophet or 'mouthpiece' which gives power to the beast or antichrist is the modern day false church which is carnal and self serving.

Look at the proof:

he man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s loveb is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:4-6

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. 1 John 2:18

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

So the antichrist spirit denies the Father and the Son. How do you deny Christ? By denies the words that he spoke and denying his commandment. What is His commandment?

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34

So the antichrist spirit is a FAITH only, BELIEVING only religion which does not speak of love and good works. It does not obey what Christ said to do and therefor it denies Him.

The false prophet is the mouth piece with which this faith only, believing only organizations that it comes from. (God knows who they are)

 

[Metal Minister]

The Antichrist is the 'false religious christ' which is the false christ that requires only worship and believing in him and does not require the works of love. It only requires faith and not true faith that produces good works. It is a form of godliness but denying the true power. They teach to pray, accept that christ in your heart, go to church but say nothing of loving your neighbors as yourself or producing good works. It is religious and full of self righteousness and hypocrisy.

The false prophet or 'mouthpiece' which gives power to the beast or antichrist is the modern day false church which is carnal and self serving.

Look at the proof:

he man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveb is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:4-6

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. 1 John 2:18

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

So the antichrist spirit denies the Father and the Son. How do you deny Christ? By denies the words that he spoke and denying his commandment. What is His commandment?

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34

So the antichrist spirit is a FAITH only, BELIEVING only religion which does not speak of love and good works. It does not obey what Christ said to do and therefor it denies Him.

The false prophet is the mouth piece with which this faith only, believing only organizations that it comes from. (God knows who they are)

I don't think we're disagreeing here...just saying differently the same thing.

May God Richly Bless you!

 

[Black36]

Here's another perspective I thought of:

Hell is being in a state of an absolute lack of hope, forever.

Heaven is being in a state of hope fulfilled, forever.

 

[Black36]

;o)

 

[AwakenedOne]

Who said I was looking to the future for redemption or destruction? If you actually read and understand revelations, you'll see that mystery Babylon is the symbolism for the great false religion. I'm in no way discounting the atrocities of the RCC in the past, and I also happen to believe that it will be the basis for more to come. Remember, we're told their will be many anti-christ's, and I believe the final one will use the seat of the pope for his final false religion.

May God Richly Bless you!

False religion is all around us and it is here now. If only you could see it. I just believe there is a 'collective' Antichrist spirit and it is ruling right now. There is a part of it any MANY MANY MANY churches today.

 

[AwakenedOne]

I don't think we're disagreeing here...just saying differently the same thing.

May God Richly Bless you!

I will put it bluntly. Anytime you have a church filled with people who worship God on the outside, profess they know God with their mouths, go to church twice on sunday and Wednesdays BUT yet their hearts have no compassion for the lost and do nothing good for their fellow man than they are serving the Antichrist spirit. This is the FALSE Christ.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7

False prophets promote the false Christ. Those who have faith but no works are trees without fruits that will be cast into the fire.

They deny the PRIMARY message of Christ which is love your neighbor as yourself and put in its place a message of sermons, creeds, doctrines, agendas, programs, titles, etc. ITs a false Christ.

 

[GrizzlyMonKeH]

I will put it bluntly. Anytime you have a church filled with people who worship God on the outside, profess they know God with their mouths, go to church twice on sunday and Wednesdays BUT yet their hearts have no compassion for the lost and do nothing good for their fellow man than they are serving the Antichrist spirit. This is the FALSE Christ.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7

False prophets promote the false Christ. Those who have faith but no works are trees without fruits that will be cast into the fire.

They deny the PRIMARY message of Christ which is love your neighbor as yourself and put in its place a message of sermons, creeds, doctrines, agendas, programs, titles, etc. ITs a false Christ.

Works are a natural result of faith. If there are no works, the faith was never there to begin with. However, it is not for us to judge who is and isn't saved. If someone is a professing Christian, I'm not gonna go around saying "he/she's going to hell". It's not my place.

 

[createdtoworship]

From talking to many people about this in the past, I've found that some almost treat the Bible as a restaurant menu. I'll explain...

As in....
Heaven, rewards, eternal life, Jesus, healing. Sounds nice. They like this, so keep.

But then there's...
Judgement, commandments, the unforgivable sin, hell, punishment, people on fire. Sounds not as nice. Disregard.


Like they are picking and choosing the parts they would like to have, like a restaurant menu. By doing so, they are moulding the real God into a God that suits them, one that is more adjusted to suit them better, one that is more lenient towards their lives, their sin, etc.

But our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God that tore open the heavens to throw Lucifer and his fallen angels out. The God that threw Adam and Eve out of paradise for just 1 sin. A God that does have a justified wrath. But the Bible also says that God derives no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked. Not like humans, who may find some form of satisfaction in getting revenge. He is a God of pure love, if you could look into the eyes of Jesus it would be like beams of liquid love pouring out and melting you. But the God of love is also a perfect righteous judge, and whatever punishment He lays out....it will fit the crime. And the crime for rejecting His love is a big, big crime. And to believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will have no eternal consequences is....unbiblical to say the least.

good perspective

 

[AwakenedOne]

I don't have an issue with hell per se, but I do have an issue with the idea that God is going to torture anyone forever. IMO it goes against what the bible says about death and eternal life, and most importantly, against every verse that says God will judge righteously. In short: nobody deserves to be tortured forever. I don't think God wants to do that, and I don't think God has to do that.

AMEN TO THAT!

God is love and only a monster would create the world knowing that billions and billions of people would be tortured in hell forever.

I do believe that there is a place of burning and purifying by fire. I cannot say what the fire is but it might be wide range of experiences, visions, past life reviews, even pain and suffering of coming to the knowledge of separation.

However, there is no place where God does not exist but God can make a place where He cannot be perceived or felt in order to create these feelings.

And how long a person goes here will vary from person to person according to God's judgement.

It is NOT forever. All men will eventually be saved. Only when you have eyes of compassion can you fully understand this.