Why all people are not saved?

[1213]

Why all people are not saved?

I think all are saved, but all don’t accept it and become righteous. Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. When person is saved from the judgment that comes because of sin, it is not useful, if person after that continues in sin. Jesus taught people should repent and reject sin, after they have been saved from the judgment.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

If after salvation, rescue from judgment, person continues in sin, it is not helpful, if the old sin was forgiven, when there is new one.

 

[-57]

"Prior to being born they were chosen..."

Who are they?

I think you have the ability to look up Romans 9 and read who they are.

 

[-57]

I think all are saved, but all don’t accept it and become righteous.

I was wondering, how does that align up with John 3:18? Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[eleos1954]

It sounds like you are saying the church of laodicea was lost...as Christ is knocking at its door. The church has an option to be saved or not....or, could Christ be knocking at the door, asking to come in and help straighten out the church? I think every day we are presented with the option to choose who we will serve this day.



I have studied Romans 9 in context. Prior to being born they were chosen...then it is followed up by mercy and compassion which don't sound like mission and oral trust.
It talks on a person level with the potter and clay. Not Israel's failed post of duty and mission.

It sounds like you are saying the church of laodicea was lost...as Christ is knocking at its door. The church has an option to be saved or not....or, could Christ be knocking at the door, asking to come in and help straighten out the church? I think every day we are presented with the option to choose who we will serve this day.

No ... knocking on the door to someones heart ... they either open to door to their heart and let them in or not .... receive them as Savior or not.

I have studied Romans 9 in context. Prior to being born they were chosen...then it is followed up by mercy and compassion which don't sound like mission and oral trust.
It talks on a person level with the potter and clay. Not Israel's failed post of duty and mission.

they were chosen and the potters clay .... mercy ...

God will choose how he uses people (He' the potter people are the clay) (such as He did with the twins).... and will show mercy (favor) on who He chooses or hardens those He wants to harden .... either way He chooses how HE will use them.

in Romans 9 the comparison is being made between Israel and the Gentiles ... NOT about salvation.

God chooses how He will use people, He does not make peoples choices in regard to salvation.

and it is clear that's what this is about as Paul summarizes in verses 30 and 31 and 32 .....

Israel’s Unbelief

30What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because their (Israels) pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works.

 

[Blade]

I think putting the ball in Gods court is the wrong way of doing this. We know how to do good but we don't. I also think we make this to simplistic. I believe we don't fully understand this salvation. If "born to be".. the angels in heaven.. all made yet some were not made knowing they would fall? Aborted babies.. would it not be better for them going right to heaven vs some might be lost? Yet.. this is what God wants..

Theres something about being here we don't see. I believe everyone gets a REAL choice. No matter what we see.. the only thing we can know for a fact is our own salvation and no one else's. The Father looks at the whole life.

 

[Ronald]

He put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. So before man sinned evil existed and was in the plan. It was not a perfect environment with the potential of evil and Satan present there to tempt them. God knew what was going to happen, but it was necessary. We could not appreciate and know good, which are all the attributes of God, unless we knew their opposites. Unless we experienced evil, we really would not know and appreciate His love, mercy, forgiveness, joy, peace, love, kindness, goodness, patience, grace, faith, death, etc. All these things were foreign to Adam and Eve and would be to us.
When we are afflicted with evil and good comes along, we understand. We yearn for comfort, help, relief from pain and suffering or hunger and when we receive it, we know and appreciate it. We yearn for God, for good. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were oblivious to that. They found out the hard way - that was the only way.
They were responsible for their sin and we inherited it.
The atonement for sin requires a blood sacrifice. He made the rules and so that's what happened. Blood sacrifices were made up unto the Savior arrived and Jesus died for our sins.
But we are required to believe the story He told us, who He is and that He rose on the third day. He does not force us to love Him, but He stands at the door and knocks. Whosoever opens the door and invites Him in, He will come in and sup with you. What's for dinner? He is the bread of life and you need to eat His flesh and drink His blood - symbolically of course.
He knows who will open the door and who will not. He draws all men to Himself but many resist and rebel, choose to go their own way. They are without excuse. (Romans 1)
Sin needs to be judged _ or forgiven. So, Judgment Day is coming and many will be judged. It's already set. He knows the end from the beginning. Judgment Day will come and many will perish. In our physical dimension where time exists, we can't comprehend how knowing the future is possible. God operates outside of our physical dimensions. So, it's already a done deal in His realm -- so accept that.
The wages of sin is death. That is both physical and spiritual death. So if there wasn't any death in the end for anyone, that would not be a true statement ... capisce?
People stumble over the concept of eternal damnation. I don't, because I think it is a theological error on the Church's part to accept this notion. Eternal is an English word that comes from aion or aionios. This word has variable meanings. When it is applied to our temporal, physical realm, it means ages, generations, epochs, lifetimes. When it refers to God, His domain, it means without beginning and without end. Here's the key at the end of the book, "All former things will pass away." The first earth and the first heaven will pass away. All created things will pass away, so if Hades and death are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed, what does that mean? Destroy means to put an end to. You can't destroy something over and over. Paper burns and that's it, it turns to ashes. People will burn and then that will be the end of them. There will be no more pain and suffering. Think of that statement. This is not referring to those in heaven, we already know that. It must mean that there will be no more pain and suffering anywhere. The wages of sin is death and death will be destroyed. So the punishment is finite, not infinite.
This begs the question: Why would God require an eternal punishment of torment for let's say someone who lived for 20 years in sin, then died without knowing Christ? Does that sound fair? Even 80 years of sin shouldn't require such punishment. God is fair. We've read the book and it demonstrates His fairness in judgment, punishment and was always for a temporal period.
But now I opened up a can of worms and many will wrestle with this, they have for millennia. Let them. If God knows who the reprobate are, and is using them for our purpose to know evil, so that we can draw near to what is good, be drawn to Him, then He will simply discard the vessel when He is done with it. Does not the potter have the right to fashion the clay for a particular use, whatever that may be?

 

[Ronald]

duplicate post

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Is the best answer: “Only God knows and you will have to ask Him when you get to heaven”?

Could God not save anyone and be true to His nature?

Could God save everyone and be true to His nature?

According to some, God could just as easily and righteously save your neighbor as you, so would you be just as happy or even happier if God saved your neighbor instead of you, since you are to Love your neighbor as Christ Loves them? How is this selection method not arbitrary?

God is the epitome of Love and part of the definition of Love is: 1 Cor. 13:5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, so how can God not save some without it being self-seeking on His part? God would thus be selfless, so not saving some has to be to the benefit of others, so how does some going to hell benefit anyone?

"I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved.' But my reason retorts, ‘Without their will, or with it?' If I say ‘without their will' I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say ‘With their will,’ my reason replies, ‘How if they will not give in?’” C. S. Lewis 'The Problem of Pain'

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Why would one choose the narrow gate over the wide gate? What is that choice based upon?

Faith.

 

[Call me Nic]

John 3:16-18. These verses answer the question.

 

[PaulCyp1]

God desires to save every one of His beloved children. However, He gave us the incredible gift of free will, which means we can choose to live in eternal perfect happiness with Him, or we can reject His offer, do whatever we want to do, and suffer the consequences. If we choose to reject God's offer of eternal happiness, then God cannot force us to be saved, since that would violate our free will.

 

[bling]

He honors everyone's choices, He does not force anyone. Those who end up not receiving eternal life is due to the choices they made.

If He were to make those choices ... then that would be self-seeking.

One of these days, the Lord will look down on earth and see this (everyone has made their choices) ... and then He will return.

Revelation 22

King James Bible
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

This is good but I do not think we determine when the Lord will return.

 

[eleos1954]

This is good but I do not think we determine when the Lord will return.

I didn't say we do .... only He does ...

 

[bling]

I think all are saved, but all don’t accept it and become righteous. Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. When person is saved from the judgment that comes because of sin, it is not useful, if person after that continues in sin. Jesus taught people should repent and reject sin, after they have been saved from the judgment.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

If after salvation, rescue from judgment, person continues in sin, it is not helpful, if the old sin was forgiven, when there is new one.

I do not think everyone starts out saved, if they have not sinned yet they are in a safe situation, not needing salvation, but also not fulfilling their earthly objective.

 

[bling]

I think you have the ability to look up Romans 9 and read who they are.

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

 

[lsume]

Is the best answer: “Only God knows and you will have to ask Him when you get to heaven”?

Could God not save anyone and be true to His nature?

Could God save everyone and be true to His nature?

According to some, God could just as easily and righteously save your neighbor as you, so would you be just as happy or even happier if God saved your neighbor instead of you, since you are to Love your neighbor as Christ Loves them? How is this selection method not arbitrary?

God is the epitome of Love and part of the definition of Love is: 1 Cor. 13:5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, so how can God not save some without it being self-seeking on His part? God would thus be selfless, so not saving some has to be to the benefit of others, so how does some going to hell benefit anyone?

When The Word of God asks oh death where is thy sting? Christ makes captivity captive.

John.1

1. 
   [9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Everyone that comes into this world knows right from wrong. That is according to The Scripture above in John 1:9.

 

[bling]

He put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. So before man sinned evil existed and was in the plan. It was not a perfect environment with the potential of evil and Satan present there to tempt them. God knew what was going to happen, but it was necessary. We could not appreciate and know good, which are all the attributes of God, unless we knew their opposites. Unless we experienced evil, we really would not know and appreciate His love, mercy, forgiveness, joy, peace, love, kindness, goodness, patience, grace, faith, death, etc. All these things were foreign to Adam and Eve and would be to us.
When we are afflicted with evil and good comes along, we understand. We yearn for comfort, help, relief from pain and suffering or hunger and when we receive it, we know and appreciate it. We yearn for God, for good. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were oblivious to that. They found out the hard way - that was the only way.
They were responsible for their sin and we inherited it.
The atonement for sin requires a blood sacrifice. He made the rules and so that's what happened. Blood sacrifices were made up unto the Savior arrived and Jesus died for our sins.
But we are required to believe the story He told us, who He is and that He rose on the third day. He does not force us to love Him, but He stands at the door and knocks. Whosoever opens the door and invites Him in, He will come in and sup with you. What's for dinner? He is the bread of life and you need to eat His flesh and drink His blood - symbolically of course.
He knows who will open the door and who will not. He draws all men to Himself but many resist and rebel, choose to go their own way. They are without excuse. (Romans 1)
Sin needs to be judged _ or forgiven. So, Judgment Day is coming and many will be judged. It's already set. He knows the end from the beginning. Judgment Day will come and many will perish. In our physical dimension where time exists, we can't comprehend how knowing the future is possible. God operates outside of our physical dimensions. So, it's already a done deal in His realm -- so accept that.
The wages of sin is death. That is both physical and spiritual death. So if there wasn't any death in the end for anyone, that would not be a true statement ... capisce?
People stumble over the concept of eternal damnation. I don't, because I think it is a theological error on the Church's part to accept this notion. Eternal is an English word that comes from aion or aionios. This word has variable meanings. When it is applied to our temporal, physical realm, it means ages, generations, epochs, lifetimes. When it refers to God, His domain, it means without beginning and without end. Here's the key at the end of the book, "All former things will pass away." The first earth and the first heaven will pass away. All created things will pass away, so if Hades and death are cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed, what does that mean? Destroy means to put an end to. You can't destroy something over and over. Paper burns and that's it, it turns to ashes. People will burn and then that will be the end of them. There will be no more pain and suffering. Think of that statement. This is not referring to those in heaven, we already know that. It must mean that there will be no more pain and suffering anywhere. The wages of sin is death and death will be destroyed. So the punishment is finite, not infinite.
This begs the question: Why would God require an eternal punishment of torment for let's say someone who lived for 20 years in sin, then died without knowing Christ? Does that sound fair? Even 80 years of sin shouldn't require such punishment. God is fair. We've read the book and it demonstrates His fairness in judgment, punishment and was always for a temporal period.
But now I opened up a can of worms and many will wrestle with this, they have for millennia. Let them. If God knows who the reprobate are, and is using them for our purpose to know evil, so that we can draw near to what is good, be drawn to Him, then He will simply discard the vessel when He is done with it. Does not the potter have the right to fashion the clay for a particular use, whatever that may be?

Unfortunately, sin has purpose and appears to be needed for all mature adults to help those who are willing to fulfill their earthly objective. The objective drives everything.

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

So God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross the help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow of your own free will God to help you, which is God’s desire since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

You do not have to believe the Adam and Eve story is true to get lots of good messages from it. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be few opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

That is just an introduction.

 

[bling]

When The Word of God asks oh death where is thy sting? Christ makes captivity captive.

John.1

1. 
   [9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Everyone that comes into this world knows right from wrong. That is according to The Scripture above in John 1:9.

Not sure what you are saying here?

 

[Hazelelponi]

God is the epitome of Love and part of the definition of Love is: 1 Cor. 13:5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, so how can God not save some without it being self-seeking on His part? God would thus be selfless, so not saving some has to be to the benefit of others, so how does some going to hell benefit anyone?

God is not "the epitome of love", God IS love. There is a difference.

God is also not a human being and is subordinate to no creature so to put human qualities on God is incorrect at the outset. It can help us some to understand His nature, but at one point we have to realize He's God.

God can be love AND just. God can be merciful and still withhold his mercy in the judgment.

God is God. It seems your first mistake is to forget that one basic point.

God does things specifically for His Glory, something we as human beings and children of God are not supposed to.

Isaiah 48:9-11

"For my name’s sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

What applies to God doesn't apply to us. We don't do things (or we shouldn't) do things for our Glory, but God most certainly can and does.. why? Because He's God!

Stop trying to bring God to your own level, and you might understand God a little more. He's not your equal. He's not even your better.

 

[bling]

How does this conclusion sit with...

1 John 12
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.…

and

Rom 9:19
One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it,“Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?…
22 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory...

The first reference can be understood to mean that God alone does the rebirthing but man does the choosing.

The second reference is not so easy to explain and suggests that Grace underpins the ability to decide to believe.

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.