Why "Absent From The Body" Does NOT Support Immortal Soul Doctrine

[BobRyan]

John identifies two resurrections here:

John 5: 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

And then here:

Rev 20:​

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

In John 5 the first resurrection is the "resurrection of life" and in Rev 20 "over these the second death has no power"
In John 5 the second resurrection he lists is "the resurrection of condemnation", in Rev 20 it is judgment and the lake of fire.

The entire Christian church is focused on the first resurrection as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matt 24:29-31 - Peter says to fix our hope completely on that event --

1 Pet 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

But that's not two resurrections, that's two destinies at the same resurrection

It does appear to be two resurrections in John 5 -- and in Rev 20 John confirms in fact that it is two - where the second resurrection is the resurrection of judgment taking place 1000 years after what John calls "the first resurrection" as noted above.

My personal interpretation is that the "millennium" of Rev 20 is figurative

You have free will and can read it however you wish.

I choose a literal Rev 19 appearing of Christ and literal 1000 years in Rev 20 with a literal resurrection that starts it - as the text says "the first resurrection' and a literal resurrection at the end of the 1000 years just as Rev 20 states.

Clearly we differ there.

Peter locates the rapture with judgment in 1Pe 1:5, and says (1 Pe 1:13)

Peter identifies the rapture with the "appearing of Christ" in 1 Peter 1:13

1 Pet 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Which refers to the rapture at the second coming

Agreed 1 Peter 1:13 refers to the rapture at what Peter calls " the revelation of Jesus Christ " - Paul calls it the point where Christ "is revealed in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel" in 2 Thess 1.

that is the appearing of Christ in 1 Thess 4:13-18 - saints raptured up in the air to meet the Lord
IT is the appearing of Christ in Matt 24:29-31 the saints are gathered from the "four corners of the sky" - where all humans see Christ and saints taken up.

Since all the wicked are slain at Christ's appearing according to Rev 19 and 2 Thess 1:8-12 and Jer 4:23-26 -- this is in fact Christ "taking over"


Jer 4:

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;​

And to the heavens, and they had no light.​

24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,​

And all the hills jolted back and forth.​

25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,​

And all the birds of the sky had fled.​

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,​

And all its cities were pulled down​

Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.​

Jer 25:31-33

​

31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth—​

For the Lord has a controversy with the nations;​

He will plead His case with all flesh.​

He will give those who are wicked to the sword,’ says the Lord.”​

32 Thus says the Lord of hosts:​

“Behold, disaster shall go forth​

From nation to nation,​

And a great whirlwind shall be raised up​

From the farthest parts of the earth.​

33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.​

 

[Clare73]

It does appear to be two resurrections in John 5

Not according to authoritative NT apostolic teaching as presented in post #18, and with which your interpretation of Rev 20 is in disagreement.

 

[BobRyan]

John identifies two resurrections here:

John 5: 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

And then here:

Rev 20:​

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

In John 5 the first resurrection is the "resurrection of life" and in Rev 20 "over these the second death has no power"
In John 5 the second resurrection he lists is "the resurrection of condemnation", in Rev 20 it is judgment and the lake of fire.

The entire Christian church is focused on the first resurrection as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matt 24:29-31 - Peter says to fix our hope completely on that event --

1 Pet 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

But that's not two resurrections, that's two destinies at the same resurrection

It does appear to be two resurrections in John 5 -- and in Rev 20 John confirms in fact that it is two - where the second resurrection is the resurrection of judgment taking place 1000 years after what John calls "the first resurrection" as noted above.

Not according to authoritative NT apostolic teaching

Rev 20 and John 5 appear to me to be NT apostolic teaching.

which is why I keep referring to it.

John identifies two resurrections here:
John 5: 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

And then here:
Rev 20:
And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

In John 5 the first resurrection is the "resurrection of life" and in Rev 20 "over these the second death has no power"
In John 5 the second resurrection he lists is "the resurrection of condemnation", in Rev 20 it is judgment and the lake of fire.

===================
You say the review of these text details above differs with your view in your post #18 - and I agree they do not agree with the view you present in #18.

 

[Clare73]

It does appear to be two resurrections in John 5 -- and in Rev 20 John confirms in fact that it is two - where the second resurrection is the resurrection of judgment taking place 1000 years after what John calls "the first resurrection" as noted above.

Rev 20 and John 5 appear to me to be NT apostolic teaching.

Rev is prophecy, which is subject to more than one interpretation.
Prophecy is not teaching.
You seek to overturn NT apostolic teaching with your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8).

 

[Der Alte]

Rev is prophecy, which is subject to more than one interpretation.
Prophecy is not teaching.
You seek to overturn NT apostolic teaching with your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8).

I don't have a dog in this fight, yet, but this reply appears to me to be the common cop-out. When scripture, as written, contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions then they dismiss it as S.P.A.M.Fig, symbolic prophetic/poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal.
How did the former pagans in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, to whom Rev is addressed, understand John writings? They most certainly did not have the OT, e.g. Num 2:8, to compare anything to and most of them would not even have copies of NT epistles, gospels etc, too expensive. Their understanding would be very limited, in all likelihood, the most obvious meaning.

 

[Clare73]

I don't have a dog in this fight, yet, but this reply appears to me to be the common cop-out.

But it is no cop-out, it is correct handling of the Scriptures (2 Pe 3:16) to put apostolic teaching over one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles which are not given clearly (Nu 12:8), and can be interpreted in more than one way.

When scripture, as written, contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions then they dismiss it as S.P.A.M.Fig, symbolic prophetic/poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal.
How did the former pagans in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, to whom Rev is addressed, understand John writings?

Who said they understood anything clearly in Rev beyond the letters to the seven churches?
Did the OT saints understand all the OT prophecies?

What is the objection to NT apostolic teaching as authoritative for the meaning of doctrine, with which personal interpretation of prophetic riddles must agree?
Does the Holy Spirit contradict his Christian doctrine in his prophecies?

 

[Der Alte]

It is no cop-out to put apostolic teaching over personal interpretation of prophetic riddles which are not given clearly (Nu 12:8) and can be interpreted in more than one way.
Who said they understood anything clearly in Rev beyond the letters to the seven churches?
Did the OT saints understand all the OT prophecies?

How have you put "apostolic teaching over personal interpretation of prophetic riddles?" Numbers was not written by an apostle and I doubt the former pagan Christians in the 7 Asian [Turkish] cities ever heard of the book of Numbers. So, the 7 cities would have understood John's writing by it's most obvious meaning. Give me a real good reason why we should understand it any different? If this was as important as you appear to be making it why didn't John tell them?

 

[Clare73]

How have you put "apostolic teaching over personal interpretation of prophetic riddles?" Numbers was not written by an apostle and I doubt the former pagan Christians in the 7 Asian [Turkish] cities ever heard of the book of Numbers. So, the 7 cities would have understood John's writing by it's most obvious meaning. Give me a real good reason why we should understand it any different? If this was as important as you appear to be making it why didn't John tell them?

No more than the OT prophecies are understood by their "obvious" meaning.

They are understood in their fulfillment.

 

[Der Alte]

No more than the OT prophecies are understood by their "obvious" meaning.
They are understood in their fulfillment.

A lot of tap dancing here without getting anywhere. Anyone can conjure up all kinds of hidden meanings to scripture by jamming disparate scripture together. There is an old adage about interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

 

[BobRyan]

Rev is prophecy

Agreed - but the details matter and so we see the Apostle John writing both Rev 20 and John 5.
Both consistently show two resurrections and Rev 20 shows that they are 1000 years apart.

Prophecy is not teaching.

Prophecy is teaching about future events (we call it eschatology when it is about end-time events).

It was prophecy in Dan 9 taught mankind that Jesus's ministry would start about 27 A.D. and that the period alotted to the Jews would end 7 years later in 34 A.D. and that Jesus would be crucified in the middle of that 7 year period - around 31 A.D.

 

[Clare73]

Agreed - but the details matter and so we see the Apostle John writing both Rev 20 and John 5.
Both consistently show two resurrections and Rev 20 shows that they are 1000 years apart.

Previously addressed. . .

Prophecy is teaching about future events (we call it eschatology when it is about end-time events).

It was prophecy in Dan 9 taught mankind that Jesus's ministry would start about 27 A.D. and that the period alotted to the Jews would end 7 years later in 34 A.D. and that Jesus would be crucified in the middle of that 7 year period - around 31 A.D.

Likewise in Da 2.
And we know that because the prophecy has been fulfilled. We did not know what it meant until then.
Likewise with Rev.

 

[BobRyan]

Prophecy is teaching about future events (we call it eschatology when it is about end-time events).

It was prophecy in Dan 9 taught mankind that Jesus's ministry would start about 27 A.D. and that the period alotted to the Jews would end 7 years later in 34 A.D. and that Jesus would be crucified in the middle of that 7 year period - around 31 A.D.

And we know that because the prophecy has been fulfilled.

"The time is fulfilled"

Mark 1:14 Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Dan 9 existed for a long time telling them when that time would be fulfilled - but it did not tell them that the Messiah was going to be a carpenter or that He would have 12 disciples.

Agreed - but the details matter and so we see the Apostle John writing both Rev 20 and John 5.
Both consistently show two resurrections and Rev 20 shows that they are 1000 years apart.

John 5 and Rev 20 provide details that we can see now as to what will happen - even without having to wait for it to happen first. Just as in Dan 9 they could see the 490 year timeline and knew when the rebuilding of the temple took place in 457 B.C. long before Christ was born.

In the same way Noah predicted the world wide flood and some listened but most did not. Prophecy does not require that first - God must drown everyone and only then can everyone see that a flood is predicted.

So the prophecy contained some of the information about that future event but not all of the information.

Likewise with Revelation.

 

[Phoneman-777]

To what "hour" does "rush hour" refer? Is "rush hour" the same in California, New Orleans, and New York?

Likewise, neither does "the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth" refer to a singular hour.

The "hour" of the Resurrection of the Just and the "hour" of the Resurrection of the Damned are separated by 1,000 years, as plainly stated in Revelation 20:4-5 KJV, with verse 5 being a parenthetical statement referring to the saints who "lived and reigned with Christ" or "came back to life and reigned with Christ" for a 1,000 years while the wicked take a 1,000 year dirt nap.

 

[Clare73]

Prophecy is teaching about future events (we call it eschatology when it is about end-time events).

It was prophecy in Dan 9 taught mankind that Jesus's ministry would start about 27 A.D. and that the period alotted to the Jews would end 7 years later in 34 A.D. and that Jesus would be crucified in the middle of that 7 year period - around 31 A.D.

It is was Da 2 that prophesied the temporal and eternal Messianic kingdom would come "in the time of those kings," i.e., under the rule of the Roman empire (Da 2:40-44), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, Da 8:21).
The eternal Messianic kingdom (Lk 1:33) was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).
That is the one and only kingdom of God.

 

[BobRyan]

It is was Da 2 that prophesied the temporal and eternal Messianic kingdom would come "in the time of those kings,"

Dan 9 gives the 490 year timeline for Christ's first coming - Dan 2 and Dan 7 refer to the second coming gives no timeline for when it happens aside from the Dan 7 reference to the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of saints also referenced in Rev 11 and Rev 12 and Rev 13.

Dan 2 says this --

31 “You, O king, were watching and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary radiance, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its chest and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, and its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You continued watching until a stone was broken off without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed to pieces all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the entire earth.

The Interpretation—Babylon the First Kingdom​

36 “This was the dream; and now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings,.... You are the head of gold.

Medo-Persia and Greece​

39 And after you another kingdom will arise inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.

Rome​

40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; just as iron smashes and crushes everything, so, like iron that crushes, it will smash and ...

The Divine Kingdom​

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed

=====================

Even though each of those empires fell - part of them exists until the end when all are wiped out.

Dan 7 adds that detail in its same sequence of four world empires

11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was killed, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

So then in Dan 2 and 7 we are talking about Christ's second coming that takes place after the fall of the Roman Empire in both Dan 2 and Dan 7.

But in Dan 9 we are talking about Christ's first coming - where 'in the midst of the week" He is cut off - crucified in 31 A.D. where that week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 34 A.D.

The Dan 9 prophecy accurately taught the start of Christ's ministry- its 3.5 year duration and then being "cut off" and the close of probation for the OT nation-of-Israel nation-church system

 

[Clare73]

Dan 9 gives the 490 year timeline for Christ's first coming - Dan 2 and Dan 7 refer to the second coming gives no timeline for when it happens.

Dan 2 says this --

31 “You, O king, were watching and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary radiance, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its chest and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, and its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You continued watching until a stone was broken off without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed to pieces all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the entire earth.

The Interpretation—Babylon the First Kingdom​

36 “This was the dream; and now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings,.... You are the head of gold.

Medo-Persia and Greece​

39 And after you another kingdom will arise inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.

Rome​

40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; just as iron smashes and crushes everything, so, like iron that crushes, it will smash and ...

The Divine Kingdom​

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed

=====================

Even though each of those empires fell - part of them exists until the end when all are wiped out.

Which does not alter the fact that "in the days of those kings;"
i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43) which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, Da 8:21),
locates the time span between 63 BC and 476 AD,
when Jesus brought the never-ending kingdom (Lk 1:33) of God (Lk 11:20),
which is not of this world (Jn 18:36), but of the spiritual world--invisible (Lk 17:20) and within (Lk 17:21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

According to authoritative NT apostolic teaching (as distinct from non-authoritative personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, Nu 12:8), God has only one everlasting kingdom, which was set up during the past Roman empire.
There is no other kingdom of God in addition to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Which does not alter the fact that "in the days of those kings;"
i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43) which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, Da 8:21),
locates the time span between 63 BC and 476 AD,

No it does not since the second coming did not happen then and all those empires remain in part just as Dan7 points out -- even to this very day.

as we already saw here

12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

So then in Dan 2 and 7 we are talking about Christ's second coming that takes place after the fall of the Roman Empire in both Dan 2 and Dan 7.

But in Dan 9 we are talking about Christ's first coming - where 'in the midst of the week" He is cut off - crucified in 31 A.D. where that week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 34 A.D.

The Dan 9 prophecy accurately taught the start of Christ's ministry- its 3.5 year duration and then being "cut off" and the close of probation for the OT nation-of-Israel nation-church system

Dan 2 and Dan 7 refer to the second coming that is still future and is described in Matt 24:29-31 and in Rev 19.

They don't refer to the first coming of Christ. For that timeline we need Dan 9 that specifically identifies 27 A.D. as the start of Christ's ministry and his death about 3 years later.

 

[keras]

John identifies two resurrections here:
John 5: 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Simply and plainly, John is referring to one event, where the good get Life and the evil get condemned.
In no way is there two Judgments; only one, as per Revelation 20:11-15

Your belief of a general resurrection when Jesus Returns, is wrong because Rev 20:4 undeniably states that ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised at that time. They too, must stand before God on His Great White Throne and only then do they and all those worthy, receive immortality.

 

[Clare73]

No it does not since the second coming did not happen then

Indeed, it did not. . .the past Roman empire (the one that conquered the Greek empire, Da 2:39, 8:21) was the time of the first coming (Da 2:40-43) when the never-ending kingdom (Lk 1:33) was established (Da 2:44-45), a kingdom not of this world (Jn 18:36) but of the spiritual world--invisible (Lk 17:20) and within (Lk 17:21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.

Dan 2 and Dan 7 refer to the second coming that is still future and is described in Matt 24:29-31 and in Rev 19.

Contraire. . .it couldn't be any clearer.

Da 2 clearly refers to the past Roman empire, the only one that (in 63 BC) conquered the Greek empire (Da 8:21, Da 2:39).

You are not dealing with the Scriptures' presentation of the Roman conquest of Greece (Da 2:39, Da 8:21), fulfilled in 63 BC, and the Messiah's actual first coming during that time, fulfilling Da 2:44-45, and the permanent establishment of the never-ending (Lk 1:33) kingdom (Lk 11:20), spiritual and not of this world (Jn 18:36).

 

[Mark Quayle]

It does appear to be two resurrections in John 5 -- and in Rev 20 John confirms in fact that it is two - where the second resurrection is the resurrection of judgment taking place 1000 years after what John calls "the first resurrection" as noted above.

You have free will and can read it however you wish.

I choose a literal Rev 19 appearing of Christ and literal 1000 years in Rev 20 with a literal resurrection that starts it - as the text says "the first resurrection' and a literal resurrection at the end of the 1000 years just as Rev 20 states.

Clearly we differ there.

Peter identifies the rapture with the "appearing of Christ" in 1 Peter 1:13

1 Pet 1:13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Agreed 1 Peter 1:13 refers to the rapture at what Peter calls " the revelation of Jesus Christ " - Paul calls it the point where Christ "is revealed in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel" in 2 Thess 1.

that is the appearing of Christ in 1 Thess 4:13-18 - saints raptured up in the air to meet the Lord
IT is the appearing of Christ in Matt 24:29-31 the saints are gathered from the "four corners of the sky" - where all humans see Christ and saints taken up.

Since all the wicked are slain at Christ's appearing according to Rev 19 and 2 Thess 1:8-12 and Jer 4:23-26 -- this is in fact Christ "taking over"


Jer 4:

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;​

And to the heavens, and they had no light.​

24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,​

And all the hills jolted back and forth.​

25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,​

And all the birds of the sky had fled.​

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,​

And all its cities were pulled down​

Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.​

Jer 25:31-33

​

31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth—​

For the Lord has a controversy with the nations;​

He will plead His case with all flesh.​

He will give those who are wicked to the sword,’ says the Lord.”​

32 Thus says the Lord of hosts:​

“Behold, disaster shall go forth​

From nation to nation,​

And a great whirlwind shall be raised up​

From the farthest parts of the earth.​

33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.​

Regardless of the view one takes here, as to the numbers of resurrections and other questions, it may be worth bearing in mind through all of it, that the church is called the Body of Christ. This may be relevant as literal fact upon the death of those God has saved.

We necessarily see a passage of time until Christ returns, not quite being able to conceive of what the form of a timeless bodily return and gathering of the elect will take; we necessarily must think of either a figurative or a literal 'thousand years' and in our mental noise ignore the nature of that reign.

Our 'concrete thinking' is temporal, but the facts are more solid, eternal, permanent.