Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

[sentipente]

God must allow for the stage to be set for the Antichrist.

Who is in charge? You or the God you serve? Strange to hear a human mandating what God must do.

 

[Nadiine]

Who is in charge? You or the God you serve? Strange to hear a human mandating what God must do.

He's saying it's GOD'S OWN WILL to allow evil to escalate in order to have His prophecy fulfilled where the antichrist is welcomed by the world without rejection.
Since that's foretold, wouldn't it be God's will to allow this to occur?

 

[GenemZ]

I guess no one was able to refute my arguements...

How can I refute if I do not know what you are talking about?

Maybe, what ever you said was seen as not significant enough to respond to. What you said, apparently did not cause others to feel motivated to respond. Or, we were just too busy with another poster at the time to notice.

Maybe you should repeat your challenge?


Grace and peace, GeneZ




truth

 

[GenemZ]

Who is in charge? You or the God you serve? Strange to hear a human mandating what God must do.

Mandating? God tells us what his thoughts are in his Word. That is, if you know his Word.

God had John the Baptist clear the way for the Lord. The Antichrist will need the way cleared for him, too. Labor unions do not get in to a work place where the workers are treated well and love their boss. Conditions have to be a certain way before people will listen. Or they need to be brainwashed into self importance and arrogance if the boss is treating them well. That takes time. Years.

You really think the Antichrist - who will be lawless? Could have appeared on the scene when societies were positive towards morality and monogamous heterosexual marriage? At a time that none of what we see in society today would have been tolerated? Would have been seen by the vast majority as being insane?

No, sir. The way needs to be cleared for the acceptance of the Antichrist. And, God will provide the setting for his appearance.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 (New International Version)
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
​

God is not insecure. He will provide for the way for the Antichrist, so hearts of men can be revealed. The Antichrist is like a tool of God's to expose hearts of men. God has done it before on a smaller scale.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 (New International Version)
" If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."
​

Its not a new thing for the Lord to do. Just not on the grand scale of the Antichrist has it been done before.

In Christ, GeneZ




truth


​

 

[BlueAfgani]

Why bother. The logical conflicts from a God that knows the furture and can never be wrong and freewill should be obvious. They are are to me at least.

Not to mention the implications of God being evil to the point of purposefully creating people for the soul purpose of damning them, since He already knows if they'll accept Christ or not.

Simply refusing that these conflicts exist doesn't just make them go away, it makes ya'll look irrational.

 

[Nadiine]

Why bother. The logical conflicts from a God that knows the furture and can never be wrong and freewill should be obvious. They are are to me at least.

Not to mention the implications of God being evil to the point of purposefully creating people for the soul purpose of damning them, since He already knows if they'll accept Christ or not.

Simply refusing that these conflicts exist doesn't just make them go away, it makes ya'll look irrational.

Well, at actually makes ya'll look like you had your mind made up before you even asked - so I'm glad I didn't waste my time trying.
(this is done alot).

It makes perfect sense that God knows what we'll do, YET LETS US GO AHEAD & DO IT.
And God WOULD be a problem IF HE ONLY CREATED ROBOTS THAT WOULD ACCEPT HIM. That IS allowing people a free choice.

And, if He did create you to reject Him then guess what, you're obeying Him even when you don't want to. So change your mind!

 

[BlueAfgani]

Well, at actually makes ya'll look like you had your mind made up before you even asked - so I'm glad I didn't waste my time trying.
(this is done alot).

You had your mind made up too, so why are you complaining?

It makes perfect sense that God knows what we'll do, YET LETS US GO AHEAD & DO IT.

And that's not free will, since it's impossible to do or choose anything contrary to what God knows you will choose.

Is that not sinking in yet?

And God WOULD be a problem IF HE ONLY CREATED ROBOTS THAT WOULD ACCEPT HIM. That IS allowing people a free choice.

Why, that's all he wants. He wants you to worship and mind him and never question. That's why all the non-believers and skeptics are going to roast for eternity, because God wants nothing more than to be surrounded by little yes-men for eternity.

And how is the choice free when you pay dearly if you make the wrong choice?

If I choose box B and it costs me 100$, would you still call that a "free choice".

And, if He did create you to reject Him then guess what, you're obeying Him even when you don't want to. So change your mind!

Ok, so God made me to reject him, but I change my mind and accept Him, making God wrong, meaning God isn't all knowing, because he didn't know I would accept him in the end, thus he isn't God as defined by Christianity.

Ignoring these logical conflicts does not make them go away.

Besides, why would I ever want to believe in something that makes no sence and is contradictory?

 

[GenemZ]

You had your mind made up too, so why are you complaining?

What stopped you from choosing to write that? God knew you would write that before you were born.

And that's not free will, since it's impossible to do or choose anything contrary to what God knows you will choose.

The big difference is. God did not make you choose, what you choose. He simply knows.

He also always knew that his omniscience would really bug you.

Those who live righteously have nothing to fear with God knowing what they think. Even when they fail. For the righteous know God's mercy and love.

And that's not free will, since it's impossible to do or choose anything contrary to what God knows you will choose.

Ironic... If you did not have free will? You could not choose anything contrary to his will.

1 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version)
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
​

Do you believe in Christ? Have all men? You have no free will?

If God did not have foreknowledge from his omniscience? No one could be saved!

For how could Jesus pay for all your sins? If the Father did not know what sins to pour on Christ as he hung on the Cross?

Why, that's all he wants. He wants you to worship and mind him and never question.

Sounds like you maybe came out of some rickety, legalistic, religious church.

A good church will provide you with sound doctrine. So, you will be able to question and to gain insight!

Philippians 1:9 (New International Version)
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."
​

​

Insight does not come from being an unquestioning "yes man." Just because some Christians are like that, does not mean it was the intent of Jesus when he raised up his church.

That's why all the non-believers and skeptics are going to roast for eternity, because God wants nothing more than to be surrounded by little yes-men for eternity.

I say, NO.. to that.

Not "yes-men." "Blessed-men."

And how is the choice free when you pay dearly if you make the wrong choice?

First, of all..

If you did not have free will? You could not make a wrong choice.

There would be no punishment when you can not choose.

If your car slid on ice going downhill, you can not be punished for hitting a person running in front of you.

Ok, so God made me to reject him,

No, God made you in spite of the fact he knew you would reject him.

Why? To reveal that he did create free will. He succeeded in creating free will.

Yet? As long as you are alive? You still have your free will to change your way of thinking.

but I change my mind and accept Him, making God wrong, meaning God isn't all knowing, because he didn't know I would accept him in the end, thus he isn't God as defined by Christianity.

Having a free will means you are capable of learning you were wrong. You have never learned you were wrong? You make it sound like if you have free will you will never change your mind.

Besides, why would I ever want to believe in something that makes no sence and is contradictory?

[/QUOTE]

OK, stop believing you have to be right in how you see it. Allow yourself room to find out you might be wrong.

You think I believe in God because one day I said to myself it sounds like a good idea. I think I will try it. From now on, claim to believe in God?

I'm not that stupid. I need evidence. I was willing to be shown evidence and to consider it. Yet, I could have easily rationalized it away if I chose to. If I could not have? Then God did not grant me free will.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

truth
​

 

[Nadiine]

You had your mind made up too, so why are you complaining?

Umm,... I wasn't ASKING anyone anything.

And that's not free will, since it's impossible to do or choose anything contrary to what God knows you will choose.
Is that not sinking in yet?

Different Christians believe different things about God's will when it comes to salvation (due to the way the verses read - I think it's a mix of both):
Calvanists believe God creates people for salvation or destruction without ANY human choice involved.
Other's (like myself) believe some amount of our free will is involved where God draws us to Himself, and provides us with enough faith to be able to accept His call - AND we accept that we're Predestined; but that God chose us (as the Bible says): ACCORDING TO GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Basically, based on what He knows of us, He chooses us or doesn't - HOW that all works, is beyond me, I'd have to be God to fathom His selection process. All I can say is, I'm thankful for His choosing me!

People with snotty attitudes against Him & thinking He's some monstrous Oger up there... may be why He didn't choose them for salvation (if that's actually how it works). I don't know, that's in His hands not mine.

Why, that's all he wants. He wants you to worship and mind him and never question. That's why all the non-believers and skeptics are going to roast for eternity, because God wants nothing more than to be surrounded by little yes-men for eternity.

1st off, HE'S CREATOR OF EVERYTHING & everyone and deserves it whether you want to give it or not.
We praise Hollywood actors & actresses for much less~! (much MUCH less!)

They don't HAVE to "roast" if they'de repent & turn from rebelling against Him now would they?
You're making claims of knowing the consequences, WHILE IGNORING THE WAY OF ESCAPE ahead of time.
If I had cancer or aids & knew someone had the cure, I think I'd TAKE IT instead of attack them bcuz it wasn't exactly to my liking.

And how is the choice free when you pay dearly if you make the wrong choice?

The same way the choice is free to run a red light - and if you do run a red light, YOU'll PROBABLY PAY DEARLY.

The same way if you eat a poor diet most of your life you'll pay dearly when your arteries are clogged or you're obese & get diabetes...

The same way if you have unprotected sex w/ someone that has aids, you'll pay dearly!!
Choices come with consequences - some worse than others.

If I choose box B and it costs me 100$, would you still call that a "free choice".

YES, you have a CHOICE of boxes set before you. And... wouldn't something depend ON WHAT'S IN THE BOXES???
You at least know ahead of time what's being offered.

He gives eternal life in Box "A", but you want to keep physical Life in Box "B"; the one that could end at any moment instead - the life that's full of disease, heartache, suffering, death... aging, loss, decay, pollution, poverty, brutality...
and you want to bypass the ETERNAL life that never ends in bliss.

Ok, enjoy your box then.

Ok, so God made me to reject him, but I change my mind and accept Him, making God wrong, meaning God isn't all knowing, because he didn't know I would accept him in the end, thus he isn't God as defined by Christianity.

God knows the answer as to if you'll ever accept Him or not - He knows what you'll choose, [and]/or, He knows if He chose you or not if our free will isn't involved in salvation.

But I can assure you that I have access to the same info. you have, the same Bible, the same science, the same experiences in this world (not identical, but I live here too & see what goes on around me & suffer too) - and I find plenty of proof & reason to support God's existance and that He's true...
I can't "make" you see anything (and you cant' "make" me reject Him).

Ignoring these logical conflicts does not make them go away.

Why do they have to be conflicts?? I see nothing conflicting here. Neither do Christian theologians who are much smarter than both of us.
I frankly don't know which way God does chooses - but I do see plenty of evidence that shows there's choice involved even in His selection.

IF that's true, you can choose - I lived over 13 years in rebellion - partying & living w/ men... etc. One day I just couldn't take the conviction & guilt from all the stuff I had done - and it wasn't making me happy (I mean, it was fun, but... I was just not fulfilled and had alot of regret & guilt).
I went back to church and felt so GREAT that I had gone. Like there was some light & purity somewhere finally.
Everyone has their reasons, I have plenty of my own and I'd never change my decision - I cannot live without the Lord. Esp. when this world is getting so nasty.

Besides, why would I ever want to believe in something that makes no sence and is contradictory?

Then don't -- but don't BASH or harrass the many who DO want to and who see ZERO contradiction & it makes perfect sense to them.
Just bcuz you cant' fathom something doesn't mean everyone else CAN'T.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[The Wisdom of God] For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. ​

22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, ​

 

[Gukkor]

If I may ask, BlueAfghani, what is your stance on God, specifically in relation to this topic? You clearly don't believe that believing in both God's omniscience and free will is a tenable position, but what do you believe? I'm just curious.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Let's clarify something by saying some "self proclaimed Christians" use these things that God forbids.

Almost all Christians are self-proclaimed Christians. The distinction, [huh, I think I forgot to finish the sentence...]

Anyone can claim to be one - it doesn't necessarily make them one by any means.

Naturally. However, we have only their word on what they believe, unless you have devised an objective test for 'Christian-ness'.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

For some reason, my browser cannot view the past two pages (hence why I couldn't reply to any posts addressed to me after page 31), so could we get back on topic? Fascinating as the discussions are, there's a time and a place. Cheers.

 

[GenemZ]

Basically, based on what He knows of us, He chooses us or doesn't - HOW that all works, is beyond me, I'd have to be God to fathom His selection process. All I can say is, I'm thankful for His choosing me!

I believe the confusion stems from not understanding what we have been chosen for.

Will Moses be the Bride of Christ?

Will Abraham? David? No.



Moses, Abraham, and David were all looking for the Messiah that would come to earth and rule over them.

What have we been promised? We? The Bride of Christ?

In contrast to the Jews before the Church age, the church has been chosen to reign with Him. To be his Helpmate in the Millennium. Chosen to be his Bride!

What have we been chosen for?

Ephesians 1:4a (New International Version)
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."
​

To be in Christ?

Where was the woman's body while Adam as yet alone?

IN his side. In Adam!

Where are we? IN Christ. We are his Bride, awaiting to be revealed! To be bone of his bone.... flesh of his glorious flesh!




Out of all the souls God knew would believe in the Lord? Only some were chosen by God.. to be IN Christ!

2 Corinthians 5:17 (New International Version)
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
​

We are now IN Christ. Like the woman was in Adam before Adam was put into the deep sleep. We are "in his side." Chosen by God to be there!

Ephesians 2:6 (New International Version)
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."
​

God did not choose us to believe!

Some think that is the case. He chose us to be in Christ. Out of all he knew would believe!


I chose my words carefully...

Do you choose to believe it?


Grace and great peace, GeneZ

truth
​

 

[BlueAfgani]

If I may ask, BlueAfghani, what is your stance on God, specifically in relation to this topic? You clearly don't believe that believing in both God's omniscience and free will is a tenable position, but what do you believe? I'm just curious.

I don't know. I don't claim to know answer to questions that I can't possibly know.

My only real beef has been an all-knowing God punishing people for a choice that was made before they were born.

But I don't believe God sends people to hell for not being a Christian, so I'm not bothered by the concept of an all-knowing God and free will existing at the same time.

 

[GenemZ]

All Christians are self-proclaimed Christians.

Not true. I walked around (in deep pain) for ten years. Hurting like a fish out of water. Because I did not know I had become a Christian.

Some folks accused me of being a believer, but I had no clue at the time why they were saying it.

I had no idea I had become a Christian, because I was brought up a Jew. When I said the prayer for salvation after having been handed a tract, I had not a clue that I would experience a change in myself. I did. Dramatically.

But, it took ten years to find out what had taken place. I had become a Christian unawares.

Not self proclaimed. It was self discovery.


In Christ, GeneZ

Truth
​

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Fair enough, I'll change my statement.

My point still stands, though: there is no objective test for 'Christian-ness'. If you have one, please, present it.

 

[EternallyPierced]

Did you go back and edit it?

I did

 

[Nadiine]

Fair enough, I'll change my statement.

My point still stands, though: there is no objective test for 'Christian-ness'. If you have one, please, present it.

There ARE objective Tests -- the problem is, people have come in to CORRUPT what is true and that makes it hard for one who is NOT a Christian to know what those truths are in order to spot one; alot of times, TIME has to tell
.
The bible gives us doctrinal truths that must be accepted, (repentance, turning from sin, fruits of God's Spirit, outward works we do, our love for other saints, and not leaving the faith, etc.)

1 John 3:
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us

1 John 4:6
We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


1 John 4:
12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Galations 5:
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Also, John 10 about the Sheep who hear God's voice and follow only Him - not other strange teachers.

There IS real Christianity, we just live in a time of massive corruption and false teaching rising up within it which is causing people alot of confusion. (also prophecied in the bible that would come before Jesus' return)

Lots more things to add - but there ARE tests.
Just that people today have so corrupted doctrinal truth, that anyone can claim to be a Christian today.
Matthew 7:15
[ A Tree and Its Fruit ] "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

 

[GenemZ]

Fair enough, I'll change my statement.

My point still stands, though: there is no objective test for 'Christian-ness'. If you have one, please, present it.

There is a true test. But, it is often times seen in retrospect. While its happening, it just seems like something one must do.

1 Peter 2:2-3 (New International Version)
"Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good."
​

​

There is an unexplainable deep hunger for the Word of God that accompanies salvation. Like a newborn does not have to be taught to suck for his mother's breast. Its spiritual instinct.

Its a drive that takes over. We must have it or its painful... like touching dry ice is painful. Its a soul anguish if we are denied. Denied like I was for almost ten years because of the circumstances of my salvation, having been Jewish.

When I was finally given the Word I devoured it with amazement. It was not something done out of intellectual curiosity. It was an absolute NEED.


In Christ, GeneZ


Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

 

[Nadiine]

There is a true test. But, it is often times seen in retrospect. While its happening, it just seems like something one must do.

1 Peter 2:2-3 (New International Version)

"Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good."​

​

There is an unexplainable deep hunger for the Word of God that accompanies salvation. Like a newborn does not have to be taught to suck for his mother's breast. Its spiritual instinct.

Its a drive that takes over. We must have it or its painful... like touching dry ice is painful. Its a soul anguish if we are denied. Denied like I was for almost ten years because of the circumstances of my salvation, having been Jewish.

When I was finally given the Word I devoured it with amazement. It was not something done out of intellectual curiosity. It was an absolute NEED.
In Christ, GeneZ

I agree - there's a spiritual hunger - and you're in anguish if you're in any backslidden condition or not as close w/ Him. A girl wrote a post with a quote from John MacArthur I saved that I thought was absolutely profound:

Sin in the believer is a burden which afflicts him
rather than a pleasure which delights him.​

I think it still boils down to, so many FALSE people make opposing claims to Christianity while they DENY all the test doctrines... that it makes the test "confused"... it only confuses tho, it doesn't NULLIFY it as if that isn't a test of knowing.

One thing to pay attn. to is that even in Jesus' day, the Pharisees of that day were viewed as the most holy and reveranced; yet Jesus pointed out that they were evil to the core.
They outwardly looked spiritual, but the fruits were evil.

Jesus proved with His own words that not everyone who claims Him will be admitted into His kingdom:
Mat. 7:21-23