Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

That all depends on how you define 'supernatural'. For example, I believe in the Tarot, but I scoff at astrology.

I apologize for this being a little off topic, but the discussion has already been taken down this road so now I am just posing this question from curiousity.

Why do you believe in Tarot?

Is it an experiential belief?

A belief for sake of belief?

A belief based on some 'science' or 'logic'? (If so, I would love to hear of it)

(Not mocking your belief, just seeking understanding for your belief in the 'supernatural'.)

Again, thanks for bearing with me with this slightly off topic line of questions, but I couldn't resist asking after the belief was initially stated.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Why do you believe in Tarot?

Is it an experiential belief?

A belief for sake of belief?

A belief based on some 'science' or 'logic'? (If so, I would love to hear of it)

I dabbled in it when I was young, and was surprised to find it eerily accurate to the point of statistical significance. Thus, I believe.
I'll admit, I doubt it would stand up to double-blind experiments, and my belief in it is not as strong as my belief in, say, the theory of Evolution. But I believe

 

[Nadiine]

I dabbled in it when I was young, and was surprised to find it eerily accurate to the point of statistical significance. Thus, I believe.
I'll admit, I doubt it would stand up to double-blind experiments, and my belief in it is not as strong as my belief in, say, the theory of Evolution. But I believe

There IS accuracy to that kind of stuff - alot of is a hoax tho (not everyone has spirits that give them decent powers & insights).

We just propose that what's behind it is demonic activity from the spirit world, not angelic (ie. from God's realm).
So it's very real, the issue is the source of it all which is why Christians know not to go there.

 

[GenemZ]

A few of us have said this repeatedly now - it seems to be a chronic misnomer and I don't honestly understand why it seems so hard to grasp.

In fact, it WOULD be imposing on our free will if God only made people who would accept Him as their Lord & Saviour. THAT would be the violation imo; not to allow anyone who would hold an opposing position to Him.

Some feel if their thoughts are not secret but only to themselves, that they will not have free will.

That could be the case. But only if the one knowing your thoughts was not going to let you freely have your choice.

It seems they do not understand how God can know our thoughts, and yet not cause the thoughts. Nor, know some of our thoughts and not immediately condemn. Because God does not condemn immediately, there must not be a God. But, by God not judging them immediately, he is first giving them a chance to judge themselves!

That may be a serious problem for some..... For a person who is knowing he is being watched will not freely do as he pleases when he knows its wrong.

John 3:19 (New International Version)
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

​

This life knowing about God is like being told that you are under constant surveillance in a store where people steal, but never get prosecuted.

They are told there will come a day when they will be. And, are now being given a chance to change their ways. But, since the prosecution is not immediate? They want to do wrong, and deny anything is wrong with their actions.

Those who now believe there should be no stealing are given the right to see the door to the surveillance room.

Once the one hidden behind the door opens it and allows us to see him. We know we are being watched, so we do not have free will to do wrong as we had before.

We try and warn those who do continue to steal (and some of us use to be kleptomaniacs, and tell them so) but those who continue to steal do not want to believe it. For there are no immediate consequences for their actions seen.

The store is actively broadcasting subliminal messages telling all that they are being noted and recorded. Those who wish to? They can easily deny what is being announced subconsciously.

Then we who know what is going on are told to make the message conscious by giving direct communication, person - to - person.

The good news is that all that they steal was paid for. Its only the desire for stealing itself that must be stopped. There will be no fine for what was stolen if they do.

If the message we speak too closely resembles what is being said directly to them in the subliminal messages, and makes them consciously aware of what they want to deny... we may even find ourselves resisted by agendas and propaganda movements to counter our right to speak....

For they want to feel free. Free to steal.

"There is no God! I steal all the time, and nothing happens to me."
​

They only desire and goal to glory in their booty. They see Christians as being deprived. They steal time which is not their own. They rob themselves, in effect. For time is a commodity that can not be replaced when they will need it after its too late.

For those who have ears to hear..... Ramble over.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

 

[Wiccan_Child]

There IS accuracy to that kind of stuff - alot of is a hoax tho (not everyone has spirits that give them decent powers & insights).

But one of many theories, my dear .

We just propose that what's behind it is demonic activity from the spirit world, not angelic (ie. from God's realm).
So it's very real, the issue is the source of it all which is why Christians know not to go there.

Not all Christians avoid it. Some 'dabble in Angels', others use Tarot based on Christian mythology, etc.

 

[Nadiine]

But one of many theories, my dear .


Not all Christians avoid it. Some 'dabble in Angels', others use Tarot based on Christian mythology, etc.

Let's clarify something by saying some "self proclaimed Christians" use these things that God forbids.

IF they actually were a REAL Christian, then they need spiritual warfare help in a huge way becuz they've opened themselves up to spirits.
I'd also say that it's a tiny minority of REAL Christians that would even use any of it -
Anyone can claim to be one - it doesn't necessarily make them one by any means.

 

[KarrieTex]

Nadiine,

I have to agree with you. Someone who is lving thier life as a Christian and obeying God would not have anything to do with that.

God is very clear on His views of such things i.e. they are forbidden.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine,

I have to agree with you. Someone who is lving thier life as a Christian and obeying God would not have anything to do with that.

God is very clear on His views of such things i.e. they are forbidden.

Absolutely - I even say this, people who DO use this stuff probably aren't real Christians - becuz a REAL one has a gnawing feeling of "wrong" in their spirit when anything questionable or "dark" is involved.

I'd say the ONLY ones that may dabble in it somewhat are either brand new Christians who don't know anything yet & aren't convicted yet (or worse, are already demonically influenced/oppressed bcuz they've already been opened up to spirits so they don't feel the conviction of God's Spirit warning them) or aren't a Christian & THINK they are just becuz they believe in God or something.

I'd use Mat. 13 - the parable of the sower - how people at first recieve the word, but then fall away for different reasons; they never truly converted to take any root & stay planted.
They have a FORM of Godliness but end up denying God eventually.

There's different reasons & scenarios for things, but occult practices are NOT the norm for genuine Christians by any means.

 

[GenemZ]

Nadiine,

I have to agree with you. Someone who is lving thier life as a Christian and obeying God would not have anything to do with that.

God is very clear on His views of such things i.e. they are forbidden.

But, That does not mean Christians will not try such things. Right?




Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Let's clarify something by saying some "self proclaimed Christians" use these things that God forbids.

IF they actually were a REAL Christian, then they need spiritual warfare help in a huge way becuz they've opened themselves up to spirits.
I'd also say that it's a tiny minority of REAL Christians that would even use any of it -
Anyone can claim to be one - it doesn't necessarily make them one by any means.

The Church (Christians) in Thyatira was tolerating things that I believe you would claim would make them not Christians.

Revelation 2:20 (New International Version)
"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."


​

Some who come here to challenge Christians, are in fact Christians who have rebelled against the Cross. They are willfully, chronically, carnal by choice. They have settled into their loss.

Philippians 3:17-19 (New International Version)
"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach [emotions] , and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things."
​

​

Paul was speaking of Christians in that passage. He was warning the faithful believers to avoid following those who have rebelled. He used to warn them with tears because these were believers who were rebelling. Believers who were losing out.

Not all who believe follow Christ. We do not lose our free will to be stupid if we choose to be after we are saved. That is why not all who believe will receive rewards. Sorry to say.. some who come here claiming to be unbelievers... think they are. But, they are not. Some, not all.




Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Nadiine]

The Church (Christians) in Thyatira was tolerating things that you claim would make them not Christians.

Revelation 2:20 (New International Version)​

"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."​

​

Some who come here to challenge Christians, are in fact Christians who have rebelled against the Cross. They are willfully carnal by choice. They have settled into their loss.

Philippians 3:17-19 (New International Version)​

"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach [emotions] , and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things." ​

​

Paul was speaking of Christians in that passage. He was warning the faithful believers to avoid following those who have rebelled. He used to warn them with tears because these were believers who were rebelling. Believers who were losing out.

Not all who believe follow Christ. We do not lose our free will to be stupid if we choose to be after we are saved. That is why not all who believe will receive rewards. Sorry to say.. some who come here claiming to be unbelievers... think they are. But, they are not. Some, not all.




Grace and peace,

This is what I was referring to my other post - we have to remember what the Gentile churches were coming out from and their cultures!
Many of them HAD been actively in occult practices - so they have a blindness about them.
Did you ever wonder why so much demon casting went on in the NT churches? They were inundated with demonic activities.

I never said ALL who practice it ARE LOST - but in our day and time, there's been a longstanding "stigma" in our culture against occultism - it hasn't been the "norm" for many years.
However, that may again change very soon from the way things are going in society with the promotion of paganism/secularism.

 

[GenemZ]

I never said ALL who practice it ARE LOST - but in our day and time, there's been a longstanding "stigma" in our culture against occultism - it hasn't been the "norm" for many years.
However, that may again change very soon from the way things are going in society with the promotion of paganism/secularism.

God must allow for the stage to be set for the Antichrist. If the moral norms of, say, the pre 1960 world? Were kept in status quo? The Antichrist would need 50-75 years of Tribulation to get the world thinking with him.

But? The Antichrist will only have seven years to control. So? God is allowing the world to now change, so that when the Rapture comes the world will be ready and longing for the Antichrist.

The present terrorist threat is now expediting some of the Big Brother technology that will be ready to roll during the Tribulation. The Lord has decreed terrorism to test the faithful, and to be used to set the stage for the Antichrist.


Now, if the Rapture had occurred during the Pat Boone era? The Antichrist would not have been welcomed with open arms, as he will be when he appears on the scene.

The world is near-ready, getting closer and closer. Its the believer who, now more than ever, needs to acquire a deep understanding of God's Word in order to be stabilized and be in deep peace with an insane world rejoicing in what it does not know it has.... other than its own way.

Right now Christians are being demanded much by God.. and are being given much...

If they seek, they shall find.




Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Nadiine]

God must allow for the stage to be set for the Antichrist. If the moral norms of, say, the pre 1960 world? Were kept in status quo? The Antichrist would need 50-75 years of Tribulation to get the world thinking with him.

That's exactly how I view what's happening in society.
Relative/subjective truth is the VEHICLE for Satan to be so accepted today; he doesn't even have to hide or be discreet anymore.

People are wide open and gullible (willingly).

But? The Antichrist will only have seven years to control. So? God is allowing the world to now change, so that when the Rapture comes the world will be ready and longing for the Antichrist.

Agreed.
The universalist church - "Godly" people who embrace ALL religions and beliefs will be predominant at that point and we're well on our way right now (this site is living proof).

The present terrorist threat is now expediting some of the Big Brother technology that will be ready to roll during the Tribulation. The Lord has decreed terrorism to test the faithful, and to be used to set the stage for the Antichrist.

I've heard that about Terrorism too - scary thought... but I know it plays a part in the 'set up' for the new world leaders.
It's all happening just like the bible predicted thousands of years ago.
WOW.

Now, if the Rapture had occurred during the Pat Boone era? The Antichrist would not have been welcomed with open arms, as he will be when he appears on the scene.

Too true!

The world is near-ready, getting closer and closer. Its the believer who, now more than ever, needs to acquire a deep understanding of God's Word in order to be stabilized and be in deep peace with an insane world rejoicing in what it does not know it has.... other than its own way.

And I believe this is why we're seeing a greater "falling away" (as predicted by God too). Following false doctrines etc.
They aren't firmly planted, and as Mat. 13 says, when tribulation comes, they BAIL OUT.

[/quote]
We're in agreement (with God's word)

 

[EternallyPierced]

I apologize for my post yesterday. It wasn't my intention to come off as rude or arrogant.

 

[Nadiine]

I apologize for my post yesterday. It wasn't my intention to come off as rude or arrogant.

Some can take your post that way (arrogant), but you're also a Christian, and this is your worldview - so, the words were true to your beliefs in wanting everyone to come to and know the Lord, (surmizing why some may not)
which there's nothing wrong with - just that anyone who doesn't accept the Lord could find it arrogant...

I honestly think that you can't avoid people thinking you're arrogant when you claim to know who God is and that He's the only true God... it kinda makes an emphatic truth statement and by default, it refutes everyone elses beliefs if they differ.
Kinda goes with the territory just by the claim imho.

 

[sentipente]

I apologize for my post yesterday. It wasn't my intention to come off as rude or arrogant.

Did you go back and edit it?

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

Maybe we could refocus this thread? I can state with some certainty that the OP wasn't seeking eschatological opinions. So, out of the respect due him let's focus on the topic, please?

Much love in Christ.

 

[BlueAfgani]

I guess no one was able to refute my arguements...

 

[Nadiine]

I guess no one was able to refute my arguements...

What arguments?? By the way, PLEASE refrain from assuming a "victory" if no one replies to something you pose... not everyone CARES about the subject a person asks, some just don't want to go thru it, some don't know the answer (& doesn't mean THERE ISN'T ONE) & some who want to refute it - who know how to refute it and who WILL refute it, just haven't come to the thread or seen your post.

Lack of response is not evidence of "victory".

 

[2ducklow]

Yes, it absolutely does, because I can't choose different than my pre-scripted choice. I can not choose contrary to what God knows I will choose, thus I only have one choice.

Nothing you say negate this. If God knows what I am going to do, and God can not be wrong, then I have no choice but to do what God knows I will do, otherwise I prove God wrong, and then God isn't all-knowing.



It goes agqainst logic. No Biblical insight needed.



More pathetic than a God who knowingly creates people to burn for all eternity?



There is no choice, because the choice is made before I make it, and I can't choose otherwise, hence there is no choice.



Then God isn't all powerful. He is limited by the constructs of His creation.



Do you know what "death" means? Because eternal torture is a little different.



No, you don't understand what free will means. Free will is being able to make a choice, without the choice being known and made before the choice presents itself. That's all. Has nothing to do with winning every game show.



No, that bypasses God being a jerk and making people who He knows would end up in hell.

It's doesn't bypass the fact that God would still know every choice we will ever make, thus the choice is still made for us, thus no free will.

If I take my wife to a garage sale, I know that she is going to buy some useless junk even if I tell her 'hey don't but that it's useless junk." Just because I know what she is going to do doesn't mean she doesn't have the free will to decide either to buy the junk or not to buy the junk. See my point? God knows us better than anyone possibly could, so even though we have the free will to choose and even though God knows us so well he knows what we will choose, it doesn't mean we therefore do not have a free will. Jesus knew that peter was going to deny him 3 times, because of revelation from god, and god knew peter so well,that he knew in those circumstances, Peter would deny Christ, which he did. But Peter had the free will to either deny Christ or proclaim him. Which is why Jesus prayed for him. Because Jesus prayed for him, probably is why Peter repented and followed Jesus the rest of his life.

As to eternal torment, its what the bible says, and I aint gonna say 'Hey God you are wrong here." If you want to reject religon or chirstianity because of that, well guess I can't stop ya.

God is not limited, but God doesn't want robots to serve him. he wants a bride that loves him not one that is programmed to say "I love you God'. heck i can prob. buy a barbie doll that would say that to me.