Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

[BlueAfgani]

Wait a freaking minute, the letters O M G are cencored???!!!

You've got to be the biggest prude in the world if you think that offensive.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

ah then this all comes down to "what it means to be a Christian". Romans, it’s a book in the bible, it explains what it takes to become/mean a Christian.

Exactly. So what does Romans have to say on the matter? I don't have the time to sift through it, I'm afraid.

 

[JonF]

Exactly. So what does Romans have to say on the matter? I don't have the time to sift through it, I'm afraid.

It’s quite a long book with a lot to say about the mater. If you are really interested in this topic I suggest you read it because the Jon version won’t do it justice.

 

[Nadiine]

I disagree: if he knows what we will do, what our actions will be, then how are we free to do otherwise? For omniscience to exist, the universe must be predictable.

YOU ARE FREE TO DO OTHERWISE! HE JUST KNOWS YOU WILL NOT DO 'the otherwise'!!!
IF you were going to do otherwise, HE'D OF KNOWN THAT TOO. You're still free to pick it; He just knew what you'de pick. Still your choice.

I'm baffled at how this doesn't make sense to some.
God can know what you WILL DO ahead of time BECUZ HE'S OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE (not created). He isn't bound by our constraints of beginning and end.
I'm not the brightest crayon in the box in many things - but to know something will happen isn't FORCING MY WILL (or removing it) to make it happen that way.

If God FOREKNEW US before we were even conceived (as scripture teaches in Jeremiah), then how wouldn't he KNOW what we'd do & choose.

God even foreordained Christ to die [for sin] before the foundations of the world... DID GOD MAKE ADAM & EVE SIN?? No, God gave them 1 tree in a garden and put 1 restriction on it. (how strict could He get? lol).

God KNOWING that they would eventually disobey and eat from it, already had the plan of salvation to bridge the gap it created, set up.
God didn't MAKE or FORCE Adam to take it, nor did God remove Adam & Eve's FREE WILL/ability to make the wrong choice; He didn't force them into sin anymore than He forces you to eat a cookie next Tuesday at 4:30 pm.
KNOWING doesn't force or remove free will.
Call it "psychic"! maybe then it will make more sense to you.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

YOU ARE FREE TO DO OTHERWISE! HE JUST KNOWS YOU WILL NOT DO 'the otherwise'!!!

A condradiction of terms, my dear. If he knows that I will not do otherwise, how am I free to?

IF you were going to do otherwise, HE'D OF KNOWN THAT TOO. You're still free to pick it; He just knew what you'de pick. Still your choice.

I'm baffled at how this doesn't make sense to some.
God can know what you WILL DO ahead of time BECUZ HE'S OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE (not created). He isn't bound by our constraints of beginning and end.

For him to have foreknowledge, the universe must be deterministic. How, then, can such a probabalistic thing as free will exist in a deterministic universe?

God even foreordained Christ to die [for sin] before the foundations of the world... DID GOD MAKE ADAM & EVE SIN?? No, God gave them 1 tree in a garden and put 1 restriction on it. (how strict could He get? lol).

I find it absurd that God made the tree in the first place. I find it more absurd that the Serpent is the one who told them the true effect of eating the fruit, whilst God lied. Catagorically lied.

Call it "psychic"! maybe then it will make more sense to you.

Psychics are not omniscient; vague notions about the future, however true they may be, can be fulfilled by a variety of scenarios. For an omniscient, only one scenario will fulfill it's predictions.

 

[Nadiine]

[/color]A condradiction of terms, my dear. If he knows that I will not do otherwise, how am I free to?

What contradiction? HE IS OUTSIDE TIME AND SPACE - He sees before, during AND after. You do realize that the stars we see out in the universe, we're seeing outside our time frame? (light years from now???).
God knowing isn't removing or forcing your decision.

For him to have foreknowledge, the universe must be deterministic. How, then, can such a probabalistic thing as free will exist in a deterministic universe?

I find it absurd that God made the tree in the first place. I find it more absurd that the Serpent is the one who told them the true effect of eating the fruit, whilst God lied. Catagorically lied.

What should God have put in the garden? An Ipod?? if you turn on the ipod you're disobeying.

You know as I read your replies here, I'm not inclined to even continue on this thread (which is why I originally didn't participate much). Nothing we've said has even penetrated into your understanding.
If you reject it all, fine. There's no more left to say that hasn't already been covered by others.

Of course it's STUPID & silly to you - it's so SIMPLE, that you refuse it for the brilliance that it actually is. Oh well. I posted the verses that God's way is FOOLISH to those rejecting their salvation. AND IT IS! To me, IT'S LIBERATING & BRILLIANT in it's simplicity while at the same time its all powerful, profound and complex!

You're mind looks made up and/or closed off to hearing what's been explained, so I will bid you a fair weekend.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What contradiction? HE IS OUTSIDE TIME AND SPACE - He sees before, during AND after.

Question: if he is outside time and space, how can he do anything? A timeless entity can perform no action.

You do realize that the stars we see out in the universe, we're seeing outside our time frame? (light years from now???).

We're seeing light that has taken years to reach us; the image they depict is often ancient. However, observing the past is different from observing the future.

God knowing isn't removing or forcing your decision.

On this we disagree.

What should God have put in the garden? An Ipod?? if you turn on the ipod you're disobeying.

He shouldn't have put anything in the Garden that he didn't want touched. It's just asking for trouble (especially when you also create a Temptor).

You know as I read your replies here, I'm not inclined to even continue on this thread (which is why I originally didn't participate much). Nothing we've said has even penetrated into your understanding.
If you reject it all, fine. There's no more left to say that hasn't already been covered by others.

Then leave. I'm not stopping you.

Of course it's STUPID & silly to you - it's so SIMPLE, that you refuse it for the brilliance that it actually is. Oh well. I posted the verses that God's way is FOOLISH to those rejecting their salvation. AND IT IS! To me, IT'S LIBERATING & BRILLIANT in it's simplicity while at the same time its all powerful, profound and complex!

There's no reason to believe the Christian myth of salvation, any more than there is to believe the Islamic myth of salvation, or the Buddhist myth of 'salvation' (freedom from samsara), etc. Why should a person consider Christianity instead of the plethora of other faiths?

You're mind looks made up and/or closed off to hearing what's been explained, so I will bid you a fair weekend.

With all due respect, you have explained nothing.

 

[JonF]

Wiccan, we have discussed this to we are blue in the face and you conceded all of my main points. You maintain that knowledge isn’t causal. But you maintain that foreknowledge constraint freedom (which is a cause claim). No one here is denying determinism, we are just denying that God’s foreknowledge causes our actions.

If I drop a ball do I know with certainty that it will fall towards earth at 9.8 meters per second unless another force gets in it’s way? Does this knowledge cause the ball to fall, is this what constrains the balls action?

[/color]How, then, can such a probabalistic thing as free will exist in a deterministic universe?

and again if you want to define free will as probabilistic then no one denies it doesn't exist. Actually if this is how you want to define free will it can only exist with a super natural force because by definition that is the only way to get around the determination of causation.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wiccan, we have discussed this to we are blue in the face and you conceded all of my main points. You maintain that knowledge isn’t causal. But you maintain that foreknowledge constraint freedom (which is a cause claim).

I don't see how. For foreknowledge to exist, the universe must be of a certain form. It's like the anthropic principle: life doesn't force the universe to be hospitable, but the existance of life tells us that it just happens to be.

No one here is denying determinism, we are just denying that God’s foreknowledge causes our actions.

As am I. My argument is that God's foreknowledge implies a deterministic universe, which in turn implies an absence of free will.

If I drop a ball do I know with certainty that it will fall towards earth at 9.8 meters per second unless another force gets in it’s way? Does this knowledge cause the ball to fall, is this what constrains the balls action?

Under the disproven system of Newtonian mechanics, you know the motion of the ball: it is deterministic. Under the as-yet undisproven system of Quantum mechanics, you do not know the motion of the ball: it is probabalistic. It is likely to fall towards the Earth at a uniform acceleration, but there is no guarantee that it will.
Probabalistic guesstimations do not constitute foreknowledge.

and again if you want to define free will as probabilistic then no one denies it doesn't exist. Actually if this is how you want to define free will it can only exist with a super natural force because by definition that is the only way to get around the determination of causation.

Just because an entity does not have free will doesn't mean that it doesn't have the illusion of free will, or that it isn't sentient (and therefore capable of aquiring knowledge and making predictions).

 

[JonF]

I don't see how. For foreknowledge to exist, the universe must be of a certain form. It's like the anthropic principle: life doesn't force the universe to be hospitable, but the existance of life tells us that it just happens to be.

[/color]
As am I. My argument is that God's foreknowledge implies a deterministic universe, which in turn implies an absence of free will.

That second premise (determinism implies a lack of free will) is what you have yet to offer ANY evidence for; that is you have yet to show that determinism denys free will in any other sense then defining free will to be mutually exclusive with determinism. I mean think about it; your argument has a stipulatory definition and is analytic. If your argument is to really mean anything it should be synthetic in some manner. Basically what you are saying is Determinism is incompatible with something that denies determinism by definition where we will call something “free will”.

It should also be a bad sign that you are arguing with a Calvinist about free will and are on the “free will isn’t free” side of the fence…

Under the disproven system of Newtonian mechanics, you know the motion of the ball: it is deterministic. Under the as-yet undisproven system of Quantum mechanics, you do not know the motion of the ball: it is probabalistic. It is likely to fall towards the Earth at a uniform acceleration, but there is no guarantee that it will.

Probabalistic guesstimations do not constitute foreknowledge.

You are arguing to argue, you understand the point I am making. Also you don’t have a good understanding of the uncertainty principle. The UP makes claims about what we can know, or be certain of; not about governing principles. [/color]

Just because an entity does not have free will doesn't mean that it doesn't have the illusion of free will, or that it isn't sentient (and therefore capable of aquiring knowledge and making predictions).

I have made no claims about perception of will.

 

[Nadiine]

Question: if he is outside time and space, how can he do anything? A timeless entity can perform no action.


We're seeing light that has taken years to reach us; the image they depict is often ancient. However, observing the past is different from observing the future.


On this we disagree.


He shouldn't have put anything in the Garden that he didn't want touched. It's just asking for trouble (especially when you also create a Temptor).


Then leave. I'm not stopping you.


[/color][/b]There's no reason to believe the Christian myth of salvation, any more than there is to believe the Islamic myth of salvation, or the Buddhist myth of 'salvation' (freedom from samsara), etc. Why should a person consider Christianity instead of the plethora of other faiths?


With all due respect, you have explained nothing.

According to you, ONLY YOU explain anything correctly... good day

 

[GenemZ]

Question: if he is outside time and space, how can he do anything? A timeless entity can perform no action.

That is one reason why God is a Trinity. For its the Holy Spirit and Son who enter into time and space. The Father is always remaining transcendent.

We're seeing light that has taken years to reach us; the image they depict is often ancient. However, observing the past is different from observing the future.

God is mind boggling if you try to put him in a box.

There's no reason to believe the Christian myth of salvation, any more than there is to believe the Islamic myth of salvation, or the Buddhist myth of 'salvation' (freedom from samsara), etc. Why should a person consider Christianity instead of the plethora of other faiths?

Because of the following:

Luke 10:22 (New International Version)
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
​

​

Salvation is not just making up ones mind to believe something (though, religious people do that). Salvation is an experience that opens the eyes of the one who has believed to what could not be seen before.

Now, don't give me that "its the power of suggestion" mantra. I was born a Jew.


I was never propagandized as to what is to happen in salvation. It happened without me understanding what was going on. I thought maybe I was even mentally ill because my thinking and feelings were dramatically altered, and I was having visions of the future that I could sense was coming from a superior mind than my own.

Ten years later the Lord came out from behind the curtain. Why? Because he wanted me to know what I experienced was not from the power of suggestion. For all I was shown previously was only to be later defined. I thought when people said the prayer to Jesus that one's sins were simply forgiven. I was totally ignorant as to what regeneration involves and causes in one's soul.

One of the things I was shown in a vision is the type of thing I am doing here right now.

If I was shown at the time I first got saved, that I would be doing something like this? I would have never believed it. Nor, understood how it could possibly be true.

What I do now was a foreign concept to me then. Yet, I was shown something to indicate that what I am doing now, was ,in part, what I was shown back then. I had not even read the Bible when I was shown what I now have seen come to pass concerning teaching from the Bible.

I was anti religious when I got saved. Still am.




HE SAVED ME JUST IN TIME.

 

[BlueAfgani]

Do you maintain that God caused the choice the person made?

Good question.

But no, I'm saying that with God's foreknowledge combined with the fact that God can not be wrong, the choice is made before I'm born and once I'm alive, I can make no choice that contradicts God foreknowledge, meaning my fate is written before I am even born, and I have no say in it.

No, God gives people the ability to choose weather or not to obey. So God's will is that all should have free will. I think God would want everyone to believe, but He wills their free will.

If God knows what I am going to do before I am born, and God can not be wrong, the only ability I have is to fall in line with God foreknowledge, meaning my choices are already made.

Nope. The choice is made when you actually make it. Foreknowledge does not violate this.

Of course it does. If God knows I'm going to choose to reject him, and God can not be wrong, then my choice is already made before I actually make it, and God knows it the whole time.

That puts the blame squarely on God.

God's knowing what you will choose doesn't eliminate your free choices. If God knows that someone is going to reject Him, that still does not eliminate the possibility that they would accept God; if they did accept God though, that would just mean God knew differently. Free choice is still not violated.

That means God has a multitude of possible outomes for a given person, and does know which will be the final outcomes until we do.

Why does God create people who He knows will freely choose to reject Him?

Fair enough, that's the heart of the matter anyone. Whether we freely choose or not is a sematics issue.

We're still free to choose either.

Except God knows the choice before you are born and can not be wrong. If God foresees you picking B, there is no way you can pick A.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That second premise (determinism implies a lack of free will) is what you have yet to offer ANY evidence for; that is you have yet to show that determinism denys free will in any other sense then defining free will to be mutually exclusive with determinism. I mean think about it; your argument has a stipulatory definition and is analytic. If your argument is to really mean anything it should be synthetic in some manner. Basically what you are saying is Determinism is incompatible with something that denies determinism by definition where we will call something “free will”.

You are aware of my definition of free will. You have yet to provide a definition that is both consistent with the colloquial useage and compatible with determinism.

You are arguing to argue, you understand the point I am making.

On the contrary, by demonstrating that your particular analogy is flawed, you are forced to present another that does convey your point, or explain your point more clearly.

Also you don’t have a good understanding of the uncertainty principle. The UP makes claims about what we can know, or be certain of; not about governing principles.

The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle places restrictions on how accurately we can measure a particles position and momentum at the same time, and also the time it is in a certain energy state and the energy of the state itself. The product of the uncertainity in momentum and position, or in duration and energy, is always greater than or equal to ħ/2. My statements are valid.

I have made no claims about perception of will.

You said: Actually if this is how you want to define free will it can only exist with a super natural force because by definition that is the only way to get around the determination of causation.

My reply was to highlight that this was not the case.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

According to you, ONLY YOU explain anything correctly... good day

Where on Earth did I say such a thing? I don't expect Nadiine to respond, so I leave this as an open question.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That is one reason why God is a Trinity. For its the Holy Spirit and Son who enter into time and space. The Father is always remaining transcendent.

Then 'the holy spirit' and 'the son' are not related to 'the father'.

God is mind boggling if you try to put him in a box.

I'm sorry? I do not see how this is relevant to my point, nor what this statement means as is.

Because of the following:

Luke 10:22 (New International Version)
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
​

​

Salvation is not just making up ones mind to believe something (though, religious people do that). Salvation is an experience that opens the eyes of the one who has believed to what could not be seen before.

This sentiment is echoed throughout religions offering salvation, including Islam and Buddhism. I fail to see the significance, or even the objective testability of Christianity that distinguishes it from the myriad of other faiths.

Now, don't give me that "its the power of suggestion" mantra. I was born a Jew.

And I a Christian. Funny how things turn out, isn't it?

 

[DerSchweik]

Prayers...

 

[GenemZ]

And I a Christian. Funny how things turn out, isn't it?

How were you 'born' a Christian?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How were you 'born' a Christian?

Born into a Christian family, and raised to believe Christian mythology. Try not to take things literally.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Prayers...

Did you have a point, or...?