Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

[Wiccan_Child]

You misunderstand me, in your definition of free will; the fact that something be predictable negates free will is problematic.

Why?

no, mechanical in this sense just means with process

My understanding of 'mechanical' comes from the Wikipedia: Mechanism (philosophy), a theory that all natural phenomena can be explained by physical causes.
Such a universe is be predictable, given sufficient information about the present. Conversly, a universe that is unpredictable no matter how much information is given about the present cannot be mechanical.

I can define each of these things if you want or you could look up the standard definitions yourself, but I sense you are trying to argue by infinite regression, which again is a fallacy.

The four things I mentioned are ambiguous terms that, until defined, cause your definition of free will to be simply goalpost shifting. Nothing has been usefully done.
I am aware of the fallacy you mention, but I am also aware that their standard definitions are in their multitude. For every combination of definitions, there is a school of thought.
I am trying to identify the concept you refer to when you say 'free will'; otherwise, we cannot have a meaningful discussion on it.

You seem to take offense by my use of “substandard” in philosophy it’s a neutral term. It doesn’t mean bad, or anything like it – it just means not the normal or standard. But, again, I don’t really like your definition for the previously mentioned reasons, but hey if that’s what you want to use that’s fine, but your conclusion is both trivial and irrelevant to Christianity.

Luckily for me, Christianity is not the be-all and end-all.
Out of curiosity, how does Christianity define free will? It's held aloft as the answer to the problem of evil, but I have yet to see it defined in a way that does indeed answer the problem.

 

[JonF]

Why?

because it’s the strongest way to interpret your claim for you…

My understanding of 'mechanical' comes from the Wikipedia:

Mechanism (philosophy), a theory that all natural phenomena can be explained by physical causes.[/color]
Such a universe is be predictable, given sufficient information about the present. Conversly, a universe that is unpredictable no matter how much information is given about the present cannot be mechanical.

I was using mechanics in the metaphysical sense, that article on free will I gave you describes it towards the end I think…

The four things I mentioned are ambiguous terms that, until defined, cause your definition of free will to be simply goalpost shifting. Nothing has been usefully done.

I am aware of the fallacy you mention, but I am also aware that their standard definitions are in their multitude. For every combination of definitions, there is a school of thought.
I am trying to identify the concept you refer to when you say 'free will'; otherwise, we cannot have a meaningful discussion on it.

These are all fairly standard terms that I’m pretty sure you understand: responsible', moral agency, desires, internalized mechanism. If not these articles should help.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desire

Internalized mechanism as I meant is: a selection process (aware of unaware) devoid of external influence.

Luckily for me, Christianity is not the be-all and end-all.

You are on a Christian forum, it is assumed that your post is a critique of Christianity and Christian claims…

Out of curiosity, how does Christianity define free will?

It really depends on what you mean by Christianity. Are you talking about the body of believers? If so there is no definition we all agree on. Are you talking about the bible? It doesn’t give us one.

It's held aloft as the answer to the problem of evil, but I have yet to see it defined in a way that does indeed answer the problem.

The problem of evil is another topic that I’d be willing to discuss with you, but it is off topic here.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You.. disagree? Who made you disagree?

God knew you would disagree. Does that mean you were not free to disagree? That you have no choice but to not believe in freedom of will? You are now not free, and must reject the notion of freedom of will?

On the contrary, I reject the existance of an omniscient. Do I believe in free will? I haven't made my mind up yet

Even if you able to redo your life a million times. A million different ways. In the end, there would be always the same answer. You would always either reject Christ, or believe. That's what God is after. All else is incidental. All else is the setting to discover our choice.

If God desires us to choose between Christianity and non-Christianity, and he is omniscient, then why run the universe at all? He already knows how it will play out.

God's foreknowledge simplifies and expedites life so he can get us to where he wants us to be. In Eternity. Time is just God's quality control check of the soul. To reveal what it will do.

But God already knows what it will do. There is no need to run the universe.

Well? If we did not have free will? Everyone would believe in Jesus Christ.

How so?

The fact that men reject him reveals that God has not preprogrammed our wills.

It only reveals that humans have rejected him. To say what you are saying requires the assumption that the Christian mythos is correct.

In one sense it pleases God that men are able to reject him. For it proves he achieved the near impossible. That he was able to create a real life. Life that can reason and choose for itself.

For, if we were only simply divinely designed biological machines? Programmed at the factory? All men would believe in Jesus Christ.

For its his desire that all men do. The fact that men reject Christ? Reveals to God's glory that he succeeded in creating real life outside of Himself.

Of course, this all relies on your presumption that the Bible is accurate on this matter. Can you justify this presumption?

Are you not free to believe what you now do? To believe what you just said? Or, is someone making you have that thought that you are not free to have that thought? If that were true? You really do not think. Then? Why try to influence my thinking?

If I have no free will, then I am incapable of doing anything other than predetermined by either an external will, or naturalistic laws. It makes no sense to ask an entity with no free will, 'Why?'

By coming here in trying to make your point, disproves your point. For to make your point? No one could change their mind. Then? Why make your point? One can only change their mind if they have freedom of will!

Your are being selective. If free will does not exist, then I have no choice but to come on here and argue my case.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

because it’s the strongest way to interpret your claim for you…

I think I can interpret my own claim, but thanks anyway.

I was using mechanics in the metaphysical sense, that article on free will I gave you describes it towards the end I think…


These are all fairly standard terms that I’m pretty sure you understand: responsible', moral agency, desires, internalized mechanism. If not these articles should help.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desire

Internalized mechanism as I meant is: a selection process (aware of unaware) devoid of external influence.

I will read the former tomorrow, when I have time.

You are on a Christian forum, it is assumed that your post is a critique of Christianity and Christian claims…

Alas, it is not. I made it quite clear in my OP not to draw more theology that was explicit. That this is a Christian forum is incidental; it is by far the largest forum available to me.

It really depends on what you mean by Christianity. Are you talking about the body of believers? If so there is no definition we all agree on. Are you talking about the bible? It doesn’t give us one.

I mean it in the same way you did when you said, 'but your conclusion is both trivial and irrelevant to Christianity'.

The problem of evil is another topic that I’d be willing to discuss with you, but it is off topic here.

It's my thread. I deem it on-topic
After all, it deals with free will.

 

[JonF]

I think I can interpret my own claim, but thanks anyway.


I will read the former tomorrow, when I have time.

so do other people, i thought i'd be nice and interpert it the best way for your position

I mean it in the same way you did when you said, '

but your conclusion is both trivial and irrelevant to Christianity'.

that is true about both of the ways i described Christianity.

It's my thread. I deem it on-topic
After all, it deals with free will.

But i don't, the rules don't, and staff probably won't. So i wont discuss it here but if you want to start another thread or pm or something i'm more than willing

 

[GenemZ]

[/size]On the contrary, I reject the existance of an omniscient. Do I believe in free will? I haven't made my mind up yet

How can you know what omniscience is?

To know what it can do? And, can not do?

To know its capabilities, would mean you are omniscient. Right?

A big problem with man is we tend to project our own limitations upon God when we try to picture what its like to be God.

Omniscience knows all things. If we could truly understand omniscience, we would not be having this debate.

We as man can only have a concept of omniscience that can evolve as we grow in understanding.


Omniscience knows infinitely. That, we can not comprehend experientially.

Omnicience knows how to allow for the freedom of will in souls of men - and at the same time - be omniscient. How can he do that? It just might be?.... Omniscience.

If God desires us to choose between Christianity and non-Christianity, and he is omniscient, then why run the universe at all? He already knows how it will play out.

1-800-ask omniscience.

But God already knows what it will do. There is no need to run the universe.

He is not running it. He is enjoying it.



When an artist creates a great painting?

After its finished?

Does he run it?

IC, GeneZ​

.​

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How can you know what omniscience is?

To know what it can do? And, can not do?

To know its capabilities would mean you are omniscient. Right?

Wrong. Omniscience is the trait of knowing everything knowable. A simple enough concept, with certain implications (for example, an omniscient being must be the totality of existance).
To know facts about an omniscient being does not imbue me with total knowledge.

A big problem with man, is we tend to project our own limitations upon God when we try to picture what its like to be God. Omniscience knows all things. If we could truly understand omniscience, we would not be having this debate. We can only have a concept of omniscience that will evolve as we grow in understanding.

Omniscience knows infinitely. That, we can not comprehend experientially. Omnicience knows how to allow for the freedom of will in souls of men, and at the same time - be omniscient. How can he do that? It just might be.... Omniscience.

No. An omniscient knows everything that is knowable. How to cause two mutually exclusive premises to be simultaneously true is unknowable. Therefore, the omniscient does not know it.
Similarily, omnipotence is the ability to do anything that is logically possible.

1-800-ask omniscience.

'I don't know' would suffice.

He is not running it. He is enjoying it.

When an artist creates a great painting?

After its finished?

Does he run it?.

Yes, insofar as a painting doesn't change with time.

 

[GenemZ]

Wrong. Omniscience is the trait of knowing everything knowable. A simple enough concept, with certain implications (for example, an omniscient being must be the totality of existance).
To know facts about an omniscient being does not imbue me with total knowledge.

You do not know what you do not know. Did you know that?

We can only begin to know a concept of what omniscience is. We really can only think in terms of what is knowable according to our frame of reference.

Therefore.. We can only trust. It all comes down to faith.


I do not believe God is omniscient simply because the Bible says so.


I believe the Bible, because I came through the shock of my soul to be shown God is real. That's why I believe the Bible. I would have to be stupid to believe the Bible about many things it says if I first did not realize God is real.

No. An omniscient knows everything that is knowable. How to cause two mutually exclusive premises to be simultaneously true is unknowable. Therefore, the omniscient does not know it.
Similarily, omnipotence is the ability to do anything that is logically possible.

God knows beyond what we would call knowable. He knows of dimesions that we will never know exist.

All that we call knowable is knowable to created life. All what we call knowable had to come through the Soul of God...through the Son... Nothing was created except what went through the Son. It was created by and for the Son. He is the humanity side of the Trinity. Therefore, all that is that is knowable beyond the soul, God knows. Not us.

What we call knowable, to us is limited to the capacity of the soul. God is infinite in nature. What we can not know - ever - he always knew. He knows all what could have happened if allowed to happen. Always knew it.

'I don't know' would suffice.

OK... you don't know.

Yes, insofar as a painting doesn't change with time.

One quality of Eternity is that there is no time. No age.

IC, GeneZ​

.​

 

[BlueAfgani]

It seems as though you are thinking that God is making the choice for us, he is not. We have the free will to choose but he already knows what we are going to choose so it is no surprise to him therefore he is omniscient. If we decided on A and then change our mind and choose B, he already knows that we are going to do this.

Hence there is no free will. Life is a Script, we have no choice but to play it out, and technically, if God knows we will not accept Christ, which is the heart of the matter, we have no choice but to not accept Christ.

If my decision is made before I'm born, then I had nothing to do with it, because I cannot decide otherwise.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You do not know what you do not know. Did you know that?

Well... duh.

We can only begin to know a concept of what omniscience is. We really can only think in terms of what is knowable according to our frame of reference.

The knowledge itself is irrelevant. We can have meaningful discussions on the nature of the omniscient itself.

Therefore.. We can only trust. It all comes down to faith.

Faith is belief without evidence. Logical arguments are the only evidence in the realm of philosophy, and I have yet to see you make an argument to support your claim (which, ironically, calls for faith).

I do not believe God is omniscient simply because the Bible says so.


I believe the Bible, because I came through the shock of my soul to be shown God is real. That's why I believe the Bible. I would have to be stupid to believe the Bible about many things it says if I first did not realize God is real.

What makes you think it is the God of the Bible?

God knows beyond what we would call knowable. He knows of dimesions that we will never know exist.

All that we call knowable is knowable to created life. All what we call knowable had to come through the Soul of God...through the Son... Nothing was created except what went through the Son. It was created by and for the Son. He is the humanity side of the Trinity. Therefore, all that is that is knowable beyond the soul, God knows. Not us.

Yes, we've established that we are not the omniscients.

What we call knowable, to us is limited to the capacity of the soul. God is infinite in nature. What we can not know - ever - he always knew. He knows all what could have happened if allowed to happen. Always knew it.

Simply repeating a claim doesn't make it true. I fully accept that we will never be omniscient. But as I said before, the knowledge is irrelevant in and of itself. It is the omniscient that we are interested in.

OK... you don't know.

Cute.

One quality of Eternity is that there is no time. No age.

Nonsense. Infinity coexists with the reals, and likewise eternity coexists with the timeline.
The time exists in the universe is a trivial; that a timeless entity exists, is not.

 

[DerSchweik]

Suppose I, an entity allegedly with free will, and God*, an entity allegedly omniscient, are in a room with two boxes, A and B. God asks me to pick one of the boxes.

God knows I will pick box A (in this scenario, at least). I don't know God knows this, nor have I made my decision (such that it may be).

• Can I pick box B?
  • If so, then God is not omniscient.
  • If not, then I do not have free will.

This is why a true omniscient being cannot coexist with an entity with true free will.

*The word is only a placeholder for 'the omniscient'. Don't read too much theology from this

God's foreknowledge and your free will are entirely unrelated; your "philosophical" error is in presuming otherwise.

Can you pick box B? Of course you can, but as you yourself posited, you won't. Your conclusions are trivial, self-generated non-sequitors, neither follow logically your own scenario.

If, as you posited, God knows you will pick Box A; His knowing this does not negate your free will to choose either box, it merely points out which box you stated He knows you will pick. That you do not yet know which box you will pick only posits your not knowing which box you will not pick, period.

Your lack of foreknowledge about yourself, in contrast to God's foreknowledge, negates neither His omniscience nor your free will; it only accents your not knowing what you plan to do - which, if you read what you posited, contradicts yourself completely.

 

[GenemZ]

Hence there is no free will. Life is a Script, we have no choice but to play it out, and technically, if God knows we will not accept Christ, which is the heart of the matter, we have no choice but to not accept Christ.

What if God?

Could bypass his omniscience in the process of creating man?

Then? After creating man? Then, be free to know what man would do.

Would that allow for free will?

If my decision is made before I'm born, then I had nothing to do with it, because I cannot decide otherwise.

In the light of my first question...

Your decsion was not made before you were born. It was known before you were born.

IC, GeneZ





t​

 

[Wiccan_Child]

God's foreknowledge and your free will are entirely unrelated; your "philosophical" error is in presuming otherwise.

I presumed no such thing; just because two things are unrelated, does not mean they cannot interact. My dog and my gun (I have neither, btw) are unrelated, yet they can certainly interact.

Can you pick box B? Of course you can, but as you yourself posited, you won't. Your conclusions are trivial, self-generated non-sequitors, neither follow logically your own scenario.

Correct syntax might help me understand your point.
In my scenario, the alleged-omniscient silently predicts that I, an entity with alleged-free will, will pick box A. I do not know what the alleged-omniscient has predicted.
Consider it another way: for foreknowledge to exist, what requirements must be met?

If, as you posited, God knows you will pick Box A; His knowing this does not negate your free will to choose either box, it merely points out which box you stated He knows you will pick. That you do not yet know which box you will pick only posits your not knowing which box you will not pick, period.

Indeed. But my lack of knowledge is cruicial: free will exists if we have a choice, which foreknowledge negates.

Your lack of foreknowledge about yourself, in contrast to God's foreknowledge, negates neither His omniscience nor your free will; it only accents your not knowing what you plan to do - which, if you read what you posited, contradicts yourself completely.

How so? I explicitly stated that I was unaware of the prediction made by the alleged-omniscient, and that I had yet to make a decision myself.

 

[BlueAfgani]

What if God?

Could bypass his omniscience in the process of creating man?

Then? After creating man? Then, be free to know what man would do.

Would that allow for free will?

That's a helluva "what if".

And even so, it just boils down to God playing games with our fates.

Your decsion was not made before you were born. It was known before you were born.

If it's known before I'm born, then it's made before I am born without my imput. I can't choose anything else. I can do nothing but play my part.

 

[GenemZ]

That's a helluva "what if".

And even so, it just boils down to God playing games with our fates.

You did not answer the question. You simply pushed the question aside ....


Please, I am not asking if the question is the way it happened. I am asking the question to be answered, according to what is asked.

What if God?

Could bypass his omniscience in the process of creating man?

Then? After creating man?

Then, be free to know what man would do.

Would that allow for free will?

Now?

If that were the case?

Would it allow for free will?

Yes? No?

In Christ, GeneZ
​

 

[GenemZ]

Hence there is no free will. Life is a Script, we have no choice but to play it out, and technically, if God knows we will not accept Christ, which is the heart of the matter, we have no choice but to not accept Christ.

Why does it have to be that way? All it is saying that we can not have a second chance after we made our final choice.

If everyone had free will, as some here claim it should be? Every contestant on quiz shows would always win the top prize. For they would always be free to go back and redo the question.


Do you propose that those who lose do not have free will?

 

[Nadiine]

Why does it have to be that way? All it is saying that we can not have a second chance after we made our final choice.

If everyone had free will, as some here claim it should be? Every contestant on quiz shows would always win the top prize. For they would always be free to go back and redo the question.


Do you propose that those who lose do not have free will?

Think of how "creation" would be too - how could everyone make up their own favorite type of world with other people in it??

If all the "other people" had their own FREE WILL, they wouldn't be in YOUR created world; they'de make up their own.
Actually, if we had everything we wanted and it became true and literal, there would be mass chaos!

And what about people like Hitler & criminals & pedophiles? Everyone who has evil intentions that harm others - do they get THEIR FREE WILL to kill every living Jew? To molest every child they want? To murder /get rid of whoever they want?

The truth is, all free will conflicts with others and makes it impossible to satisfy for everyone - the one you want to inflict a disease on, WON'T WANT THE DISEASE by their own free will - so you don't get YOURS.

The only solution is to have robotic people who just obey your whims... if you want that type of free will, then I highly suggest you head to WestWorld - the robot resort where you can live out your fantasy and do what you want. (even THAT went haywire! -no pun-) lol

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by BlueAfgani
Hence there is no free will. Life is a Script, we have no choice but to play it out, and technically, if God knows we will not accept Christ, which is the heart of the matter, we have no choice but to not accept Christ.

You have CONSEQUENCE if you CHOOSE (by your will) to reject Christ. You HAVE the free will to reject or accept. It's a choice.
There are 2 doors you can pick from- pick one! We make serious choices every day - the man who chooses to have an affair on his wife chooses consequences that will probly come from that...

Choosing to have children... you accept the consequences of a possible miscarriage and all kinds of serious complications that can arise from it - or the child can be born with a terminal illness, etc. We still have the free will TO CHOOSE TO HAVE THE CHILD even tho so many things can go wrong.

It sounds like you're angry at the consequences being there more than anything.

God's foreknowledge of what you will do doesn't negate your free will - (if it did, then He would block your free will by refusing to let ANY people be born who would reject Him! Now THAT is truly pathetic if you think about it. A God that ONLY creates people that would accept Him?).
Even a parent who has a child accepts the risks of having a "bad seed"/"black sheep" who will be nothing but trouble)
He's just letting you choose your destiny! Again, it's the consequence you hate (the ultimatum forced upon you). Hating it & rebelling against it doesn't change it for us - I know bcuz I fought it myself for 13 yrs.

The truth (and reason for it) is this: In order for God to restore this world back to the sinless creation it once was, SIN HAS TO BE CONTAINED and put away so that it cannot do its work to corrupt and harm the restored creation - AND ALL THOSE WHO CHOSE SALVATION and rejected sin (there are MILLIONS of people who lived and gave their lives for God- trusting that they have an eternal future life with Him without anymore sin, death, pain or suffering).
God cannot honor their [free will] choice of "eternal bliss" until He judges & condemns the SIN and puts it where it cannot come back to harm that new creation He made & promised to us.

So all people who chose to reject God, and embrace that sin, DON'T HAVE THEIR SIN REMOVED from them, so they MUST be put where it can be contained to live out the sentence of a "death penalty" (2nd death) by Law.

People either have CHRIST covering their sins (via salvation), or they are under the LAW that demands life for life. Sin TAKES LIFE - it destroys life (sin brought death & disease & curse thru it); that's it's job & nature. Those without Christ are punished by the full measure of God's law, a death penalty.
They are put in a place forever so that their chosen sin (which wasn't removed - BCUZ ONLY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CAN REMOVE SIN completely) cannot get out to ruin the restored creation.

SIN doesn't just "end" and go away on its own. ONLY Blood (life's blood) can remove it... and it's ONLY the blood of Jesus Christ (God who came in flesh) that can ERASE THAT SIN so that those who have His pardon, can reside in the restored creation He makes eternally for them.
The chosen sins the unsaved people have, continue with them, and they pay for those eternally - being contained. I liken it to Nuclear waste - you don't just throw nuclear waste in a field & expect it not to leach out & harm people.
SIN is the nuclear waste that HAS to be put somewhere where it can't do more harm anymore - and only Jesus' shed blood is the "remover of it". Reject Him, and you forever have that sin on you.

That's basically how and why it operates this way. But people DO have a choice - the issue is, they don't like their options. But that's how life is every day - we're forced to comply with laws & rules and facts of nature that we dislike; you deal with what you have whether you like it or not.
I call it REALITY.

Ref. verses:
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
(blood sacrifice is the ONLY way sin is pardoned. - one MUST have Jesus' sacrifice covering their sin for it to ever be forgiven - that's why He came).

Heb. 10:3-5
But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
"SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;...
10-13
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

We either recieve Jesus' (who is God & came in flesh for the mission of a sacrifice) and His blood that removes our sin, or we keep our sins eternally - being contained in a place that doesn't allow the sin back out to destroy what God has "revamped" for those who chose righteousness over their sin natures.

 

[KarrieTex]

Suppose I, an entity allegedly with free will, and God*, an entity allegedly omniscient, are in a room with two boxes, A and B. God asks me to pick one of the boxes.

God knows I will pick box A (in this scenario, at least). I don't know God knows this, nor have I made my decision (such that it may be).

• Can I pick box B?
  • If so, then God is not omniscient.
  • If not, then I do not have free will.

This is why a true omniscient being cannot coexist with an entity with true free will.

*The word is only a placeholder for 'the omniscient'. Don't read too much theology from this

You do not understand the concept for one important reason, the Holy Spirit is not with you. How can you understand the way of God when you have turned from Him?

His knowledge does not negate our desire or desicison about our lives. In other words, if i make the choice to sin then that is my free will to do so. God's knowledge of what I am going to do is not going to impact my choice.

 

[Nadiine]

You do not understand the concept for one important reason, the Holy Spirit is not with you. How can you understand the way of God when you have turned from Him?

His knowledge does not negate our desire or desicison about our lives. In other words, if i make the choice to sin then that is my free will to do so. God's knowledge of what I am going to do is not going to impact my choice.

There's some biblical teaching for this principle as to why the spiritual is silly and not understood:
1 Corinthians 1:18
[The Wisdom of God] For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written,
"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

God KNOWS the message of salvation is simple - and it's on purpose in that simplicity.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

John 8:
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Mat. 11:
24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
Come to Me

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants

Romans 1:21
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Eph 4:17-19
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

Mt. 13:
10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Many verses show us why people will continue to reject the simple message of the cross - basically, it's TOO simple for them to accept... and they prefer to be their own gods... so be it.