Who's The Queen of Heaven?

[Rhamiel]

the point of the bible verse was to show that the mother of the King was given special honor
Jesus is the Lord
Mary is the Mother of Jesus

 

[Lion King]

the point of the bible verse was to show that the mother of the King was given special honor
Jesus is the Lord
Mary is the Mother of Jesus

However, your example is way off, since Mary is the one who will be doing all the reverence.

-She is the one who will be bowing to the Kings of kings.
-The King of kings will not stand up for her (not even once).
-The King of kings will not pull out a seat for her beside Himself.
-Mary is the child of the King of kings.

 

[Standing Up]

no no no
that was not my intent
the Bible verse I posted was about King Solomon who was just a human King, though one annointed by God, while Christ is God and Man
so the analogy between the two is not perfect
the kingship of the line of David is a shadow of the kingship of Christ

While the kingship lineage is there, the remainder of the idea is not.

Can we at least agree during those early times, the idea of queen of heaven being applied to Mary was not on any Christian's radar screen?

 

[Defensor Christi]

However, your example is way off, since Mary is the one who will be doing all the reverence.

-She is the one who will be bowing to the Kings of kings.
-The King of kings will not stand up for her (not even once).
-The King of kings will not pull out a seat for her beside Himself.
-Mary is the child of the King of kings.

No...the bowing in the Scripture is not because Solomon 'worships' his mother, nor does he make himself subservant to her...he HONORS her by bowing...just as God commanded us to honor our mother and father...Mary IS the Mother of Christ and as such he COULD bow to honor her as such...it doesnt make him lower, subservant nor is He worshipping her by doing so...

 

[Rhamiel]

While the kingship lineage is there, the remainder of the idea is not.

Can we at least agree during those early times, the idea of queen of heaven being applied to Mary was not on any Christian's radar screen?

I am not sure, you only quoted one source, so I can not speak for every Christian at that time

 

[Lion King]

No...the bowing in the Scripture is not because Solomon 'worships' his mother, nor does he make himself subservant to her...he HONORS her by bowing...just as God commanded us to honor our mother and father...Mary IS the Mother of Christ and as such he COULD bow to honor her as such...it doesnt make him lower, subservant nor is He worshipping her by doing so...

No. The Master will NOT bow to the servant; the LORD will NEVER bow down to His creation...never. Even the greatest servants of the LORD are still unworthy:

“Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Luke 17:7-10

 

[Standing Up]

I am not sure, you only quoted one source, so I can not speak for every Christian at that time

Well, it was the only one I found early on. It was not kosher. There's no sense until maybe the 5th century of redirecting the title from 'isis' to Mary.

We want to abide those traditions whether written or oral per Paul. This is one of those. The title queen of heaven wasn't used at that time for Mary. I'm sorta surprised folks don't agree with this (Paul, Origen), given how adamantly some stomp the 'oral tradition' necessity.

 

[Defensor Christi]

No. The Master will NOT bow to the servant; the LORD will NEVER bow down to His creation...never. Even the greatest servants of the LORD are still unworthy:

“Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’” Luke 17:7-10

Of course this is all hypothetical as neither of us know what the Lord can/will or could do...

I believe the Lord loves His Mother so much that it is quite possible that He could and would honor her in such a way...

He loves her so much that He turned water into wine...because she requested. Although His time had not yet come...

 

[Lion King]

Of course this is all hypothetical as neither of us know what the Lord can/will or could do...

I believe the Lord loves His Mother so much that it is quite possible that He could and would honor her in such a way...

I know for a FACT that my God will never bow down to anyone. Not to Mary, not to anybody! It's not a guess either.

He loves her so much that He turned water into wine...because she requested. Although His time had not yet come...

Jesus Christ LOVES everyone so much that He died for us!!!

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

_________________________

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27-28

 

[Defensor Christi]

I know for a FACT that my God will never bow down to anyone. Not to Mary, not to anybody! It's not a guess either.

It's just that love that COULD move Him to bow to her...I would honor my mother in such a way...Jesus is like us in everyway (save for sin)...so it doesnt seem far fetched to me...Jesus isnt some despot King demanding worship...

Would you expect the King of the Universe to wash your feet? Neither did the Apostles...

He is GREAT at suprising us!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Defensor Christi

My point exactly...thanks! That should pretty much close this thread right up...no?
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Or we can continue on this other one

http://www.christianforums.com/t6849360-9/#post43498642
Mary - Queen Of Heaven (2)

​

Awesome post! Dr. Scott Hahn is one of my favorites and easily answers the question of the OP...Thanks Lamb!!

PS: I own that book...good read!

From what I understand, he was a Protestant that converted to Catholicism. I don't really know that much about him. Sorry

http://www.christianforums.com/t7401264-20/#post52917390
Scott Hahn's Jouney To Catholicism

 

[StThomasMore]

The difficulty, of couse, is that the Bible never assigns a title to Mary. Later theologians who were not content with her not having a title decided to deduce various titles for her, such as Theotokos (Mother of God), Queen of Heaven, Co-Redemptrix, etc.). One can employ logic in the most wonderful ways to reach the strangest conclusions. I suggest the we not go there and just let Mary be Mary.

In the book of Revelation Mary is shown in quite a queen-like grand fashion, standing upon the moon and has a crown. A woman who has a crown would represent a queen. The angel Gabriel Hail's Mary. Where in many cases a angel does not hail a human person.

Basically the reason why the title Queen of Heaven is given, is because Jesus Christ is king of Israel and heavenly king of the Universe. The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the queen mother. Since Jesus is the heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as the queen mother.

 

[Standing Up]

In the book of Revelation Mary is shown in quite a queen-like grand fashion, standing upon the moon and has a crown. A woman who has a crown would represent a queen. The angel Gabriel Hail's Mary. Where in many cases a angel does not hail a human person.

Basically the reason why the title Queen of Heaven is given, is because Jesus Christ is king of Israel and heavenly king of the Universe. The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the queen mother. Since Jesus is the heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as the queen mother.

That's the explanation nowadays. But it wasn't the explanation long ago (see the OP). The queen of heaven was Isis or the moon god or sun god. It was not Christian to assign the same title to Mary.

No idea when the title passed from pagan into Christian usage.

But, Paul says abide the traditions whether spoken or written. This is one of the things----Mary was never called queen of heaven.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the book of Revelation Mary is shown in quite a queen-like grand fashion, standing upon the moon and has a crown. A woman who has a crown would represent a queen. The angel Gabriel Hail's Mary. Where in many cases a angel does not hail a human person.

Basically the reason why the title Queen of Heaven is given, is because Jesus Christ is king of Israel and heavenly king of the Universe. The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the queen mother. Since Jesus is the heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as the queen mother.

Thank you for confirming the statements in my post. You have presented the Catholic rationale for assigning this title to Mary. Unfortunately, Revelation nevers employs the word Mary, so it is matter of some speculation to identify this woman as Mary.

 

[Lion King]

In the book of Revelation Mary is shown in quite a queen-like grand fashion, standing upon the moon and has a crown. A woman who has a crown would represent a queen.

The woman in Revelation is not Mary, but Israel.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. Revelation 12:1-5

_______________________


Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind. Genesis 37:9-11

The angel Gabriel Hail's Mary. Where in many cases a angel does not hail a human person.

Hail - This word of salutation is equivalent to "Peace be with thee," or "Joy be with thee;" a form of speech implying that she was signally favored, and expressing joy at meeting her.

It's a form of greeting.

Basically the reason why the title Queen of Heaven is given, is because Jesus Christ is king of Israel and heavenly king of the Universe. The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the queen mother. Since Jesus is the heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as the queen mother.

I do not believe it works that way in Heaven. Jesus Christ was King of Israel and heavenly King of the universe even before Mary ever existed. God does NOT have a mother in heaven.

Mary will be nothing more but a child of God in heaven, as will everyone else.

 

[Standing Up]

Originally Posted by StThomasMore

In the book of Revelation Mary is shown in quite a queen-like grand fashion, standing upon the moon and has a crown. A woman who has a crown would represent a queen.
​

LionKing: The woman in Revelation is not Mary, but Israel.

SU: Given that we know in the very early stages of Christianity, the title of Queen of Heaven was NOT assigned to Mary, but it was later on, this seems a reasonable explanation. The church militant/violent (Roman Empire), taking over the world?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by StThomasMore In the book of Revelation Mary is shown in quite a queen-like grand fashion, standing upon the moon and has a crown. A woman who has a crown would represent a queen. The angel Gabriel Hail's Mary. Where in many cases a angel does not hail a human person.

Basically the reason why the title Queen of Heaven is given, is because Jesus Christ is king of Israel and heavenly king of the Universe. The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the queen mother. Since Jesus is the heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as the queen mother.

Thank you for confirming the statements in my post. You have presented the Catholic rationale for assigning this title to Mary. Unfortunately, Revelation nevers employs the word Mary, so it is matter of some speculation to identify this woman as Mary.

The woman in Revelation is not Mary, but Israel.

Mary will be nothing more but a child of God in heaven, as will everyone else.

Is that the generally consensus among the majority of Christianity?

..

 

[Rhamiel]

Is that the generally consensus among the majority of Christianity?

..

it is the consensus
the Woman crowned with the stars in Revelations does represent Israel
but we should allso remember that many of the Old Testement psalms that refer to David allso refer to Jesus
we should not over simplify the Bible, many prophetic things have multiple meanings
I would say that the Lady crowned with stars is both a symbol of Israel and a symbol of Mary

 

[Lion King]

it is the consensus
the Woman crowned with the stars in Revelations does represent Israel
but we should allso remember that many of the Old Testement psalms that refer to David allso refer to Jesus
we should not over simplify the Bible, many prophetic things have multiple meanings
I would say that the Lady crowned with stars is both a symbol of Israel and a symbol of Mary

Could you give your biblical reasons as to why you claim the woman in the book of Revelation is Mary?

 

[StThomasMore]

Could you give your biblical reasons as to why you claim the woman in the book of Revelation is Mary?

Because of Revelation 12:17, I don't think that "the Woman" could be Israel, because they do not bear testimony to Jesus as being the Son of God. If it refers to the Church, then that is even more perplexing, as Jesus created the Church, not the other way around. That leaves it to be Mary, at least to my way of thinking. Revelation 11:19 refers to John seeing the Ark of the Covenant, which is a direct reference to Mary, the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation 12 (especially since that is how she appeared at Guadalupe).

It also explicitly states about the woman "giving birth" to the messiah. Mary is the only person who birthed Jesus.As far as the dragon chasing her into the desert. This relates to Mary and Joseph's flight to Egypt soon after the birth of Jesus-where they stayed until Herod's death.
There is also a connection here with Gen 3:15 the dragon = the serpent. Mary as the New eve has total enmity between her and the serpent/dragon/devil. There is always a battle between them and the devil is powerless since she is full of grace. This must drive him crazy since she is only a creature and not God.

St. Ambrose speaking on the Blessed Virgin Mary as a type of the Church states: "It was fitting that Mary should be espoused and yet a virgin, because she is the type of the Church which is spotless and yet married. For virginally she has conceived us in the spirit, and a virgin without pangs she has given us birth." - In Luke, II, n. 7.
Further this "Woman clothed with the sun, and with moon under her feet" has traditionally been interpreted by numerous Church Fathers and saints as being the Most Blessed Virgin Mary for example St. Augustine (Tract. De Symbolo ad Catechumenos, Lib. IV, Cap. I; cap. I St. Bernard (Sermo Super Signum magnum, no. 3.), St. Epiphanius (Adv. Haeres. 78, 11.), etc.