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Who's The Queen of Heaven?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Standing Up, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. Standing Up

    Standing Up On and on

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    Some groups believe that Mary is the queen of heaven or simply give her that title.

    Other groups, however, refuse to assign her that title or call her that because there was already an entity with it.

    It's a divisive issue that doesn't need to be that way. Most of us agree with Paul who said abide the traditions whether spoken or oral. So, around that time, here's another one.

    First a scripture and then Origen c225 commenting on it.

    Jer. 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for [then] had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

    Now Origen:

    You will find at least in the book of Jeremiah the words of God censuring by the mouth of the prophet the Jewish people for doing obeisance to such objects, and for sacrificing to the queen of heaven, and to all the host of heaven.40904090 Cf. Jer. vii. 17, 18. The writings of the Christians, moreover, show, in censuring the sins committed among the Jews, that when God abandoned that people on account of certain sins, these sins (of idol-worship) also were committed by them. For it is related in the Acts of the Apostles regarding the Jews, that “God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to Me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which you made to worship them.”40914091 Cf. Acts vii. 42, 43. And in the writings of Paul, who was carefully trained in Jewish customs, and converted afterwards to Christianity by a miraculous appearance of Jesus, the following words may be read in the Epistle to the Colossians: “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind; and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joint and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.”40924092 Cf. Col. ii. 18, 19. But Celsus, having neither read these verses, nor having learned their contents from any other source, has represented, I know not how, the Jews as not transgressing their law in bowing down to the heavens, and to the angels therein.
    ANF04. Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Some have suggested that the queen of heaven centuries ago was a reference to the moon or the sun (or corresponding "god").

    So, while the title today may be innocently assigned to Mary, it wasn't kosher to do so by Christians long ago.

    In the interest of unity, I'd guess most of us Christians want to abide and say we want to abide the traditions whether spoken or written that Paul mentioned. This is another one.
     
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  2. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    who is the Queen of Heaven?

    who is the Lord?
     
  3. Defensor Christi

    Defensor Christi Well-Known Member

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    Who is the King of Heaven is the question?
     
  4. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    The only queen of heaven I know is the "pagan god" worshipped by the Israelites during Jeremiah's time. As for Mary, she is no queen of heaven but a faithful handmaid of our LORD.
     
  5. Defensor Christi

    Defensor Christi Well-Known Member

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    Handmaid yes...but also MOTHER OF GOD? Would you agree?

    And secondly, who then is the King of Heaven?
     
  6. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    No.

    God has no mother.

    God is the KING of kings.
     
  7. Defensor Christi

    Defensor Christi Well-Known Member

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    Do you ascribe to Nestorianism?



    Do you believe Jesus is God?
     
  8. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    I ascribe to the word of God.

    Yes.
     
  9. Defensor Christi

    Defensor Christi Well-Known Member

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    We get nowhere with vague answers my friend...



    If you believe that Jesus is God...and was incarnate (stop me if i'm wrong) then whom was His mother?
     
  10. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    my point about who is the Lord
    is that Ba'al translates into "lord"
    but we recognize that the pagan idols are not the Lord
    the fact that it is a term used by pagans does not stop us from using the term as well
     
  11. Trogool

    Trogool Well-Known Member

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    I notice you avoided answering the question.

    Do you ascribe to Nestorianism?
     
  12. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    As I said before, God has no mother (He is everlasting). Mary is the mother of Christ according to the flesh.
     
  13. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    I dunno what that is.
     
  14. Trogool

    Trogool Well-Known Member

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    It's an early Christian heresy which stated that Mary was mother of Jesus Christ's human nature only. It was roundly condemned in an Ecumenical Council for denying the eternal hypostatic union and bifurcating the god-man, Jesus.
     
  15. Defensor Christi

    Defensor Christi Well-Known Member

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    You just summed it up...

    Nestorianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  16. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    ..
     
  17. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Count me in with Nestorius.

    I don't agree with the Ecumenical council; Mary is the mother of Christ according to the flesh. God was already in existence before Mary was.
     
  18. Trogool

    Trogool Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I think I'll stick with orthodox Christianity, I'm not really into heresies which deny Christ's divinity.
     
  19. Defensor Christi

    Defensor Christi Well-Known Member

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    Same here...I cannot discuss any aspect of Mary's role if we dont agree on the nature of Christ....
     
  20. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    nvm. I'm derailing the thread.

    Mary is not and never was the queen of heaven.

    fine with me.
     
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