Who's The Queen of Heaven?

[Defensor Christi]

my point about who is the Lord
is that Ba'al translates into "lord"
but we recognize that the pagan idols are not the Lord
the fact that it is a term used by pagans does not stop us from using the term as well

This is an incredibly valid point in regard to the OP...

 

[Defensor Christi]

How is Mary the mother of Christ according to His divine nature?

I do not wish to derail the thread any further, but here is how it relates...

Hypostatic union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Trogool]

By saying Mary isn't the Mother of God, you break the hypostatic union, and you have Mary having a normal human child which was just assimilated by God the Son at some point after birth. It's sickening.

 

[OpenDoor]

Mary is the mother of Jesus who is both Christ and God (the Logos made flesh).

The Logos existed before Mary.
I don't think the Logos was flesh before Mary...

Is this a correct understanding of the orthodox view?

 

[Rhamiel]

Mary is the mother of Jesus who is both Christ and God (the Logos made flesh).

The Logos existed before Mary.
I don't think the Logos was flesh before Mary...

Is this a correct understanding of the orthodox view?

that sounds right

 

[OpenDoor]

that sounds right

Hi Rhamiel
Not to take this thread too off topic, but what is your understanding of Genesis 18?
Specifically God as man eating with Abraham.

 

[Standing Up]

Mary is the mother of Jesus who is both Christ and God (the Logos made flesh).

The Logos existed before Mary.
I don't think the Logos was flesh before Mary...

Is this a correct understanding of the orthodox view?

2 natures in one person Jesus Christ. God in the flesh = Jesus Christ.

No one (I know of) thinks that Mary birthed the nature of God (the uncreated Creator), but we all do agree she birthed our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Okay. Back to the 'queen of heaven'.

 

[Standing Up]

my point about who is the Lord
is that Ba'al translates into "lord"
but we recognize that the pagan idols are not the Lord
the fact that it is a term used by pagans does not stop us from using the term as well

Okay. There are terms that get "reassigned" from pagan to Christianity. We know that. As I said, some groups call Mary the queen of heaven.

The point was simply to show that centuries ago, to do so, to call someone the 'queen of heaven' meant something specific and something wrong.

So, two things. One if it offends your brother, quit doing it (to the best of one's abilities). Two we are reminded to abide the traditions whether oral or written per Paul. Given what Origen says, the tradition at that time was to recognize that 'queen of heaven' was a no-no, a derogatory term. How about we just abide that tradition and drop the title from Mary? She wasn't and isn't the queen of heaven.

 

[GuardianShua]

Handmaid yes...but also MOTHER OF GOD? Would you agree?

And secondly, who then is the King of Heaven?

Matthew 12:48
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”


Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

 

[GuardianShua]

Queen of heaven (antiquity) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_heaven_(antiquity)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

my point about who is the Lord
is that Ba'al translates into "lord"
but we recognize that the pagan idols are not the Lord
the fact that it is a term used by pagans does not stop us from using the term as well

Baal appears to be similar to Balaam, both of those words used in the NT/NC...interesting

Romans 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him?
"I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal/baal <896>."

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam/balaam <903>,
who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

896. Baal bah'-al of Hebrew origin (1168); Baal, a Phoenician deity (used as a symbol of idolatry):--Baal.

903. Balaam bal-ah-am' of Hebrew origin (1109); Balaam, a Mesopotamian (symbolic of a false teacher):--Balaam.

 

[Standing Up]

my point about who is the Lord
is that Ba'al translates into "lord"
but we recognize that the pagan idols are not the Lord
the fact that it is a term used by pagans does not stop us from using the term as well

Another thought on this, we don't say Jesus is Ba'al. We don't say Jesus is Zeus or Jupiter. Why denigrate Mary by calling her 'queen of heaven', given what we know of its pagan sources, just like Jupiter?

 

[Rhamiel]

Another thought on this, we don't say Jesus is Ba'al. We don't say Jesus is Zeus or Jupiter. Why denigrate Mary by calling her 'queen of heaven', given what we know of its pagan sources, just like Jupiter?

that is because Zeus and Jupiter were proper names, and Ba'al is more of a title
it means Lord, like that is the translation of Ba'al

as for keeping with the traditions, you have quoted Origen who is referancing the term "Queen of Heaven" with a specific pagan cult that was causing trouble at that time, Origen did not referance that term when talking about Mary

as for not offending our brothers, not putting a stumbling block in front of them, I do agree with you on that, and that is why I do not bring up this term a lot when I am talking with most Protestants, they might not understand the term Queen of Heaven and it would just creep them out

What about calling God the Father? many pagan gods were allso called Father, I know Odin was, I think maybe Zues too, does that mean Christians should not call God the Father?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Another thought on this, we don't say Jesus is Ba'al. We don't say Jesus is Zeus or Jupiter. Why denigrate Mary by calling her 'queen of heaven', given what we know of its pagan sources, just like Jupiter?

There were pagans in Acts doing that to Paul and Barnabas though werent there? They were assigning to the apostles names associated to the same, is that might be more comparable

Acts 14:12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

Acst 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people

Acst 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Acts 14:15-17 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.


So, not to Mary (there) obviously but borrowing from one and applying to the other along with doing sacrifice unto the Lords apostles in their place. This caused the apostles to rush in also saying not to do this.

To the queen of heaven they made cakes and poured out drink offerings unto other gods. With Paul and Barnabas on the other hand they were calling them after their own pagan stuff and then went to sacrifice to them bringing oxen and garlands. But when they heard of this thing they ran in to stop it and told them to turn from these sorts of vanities and to the living God. Looks like they displaced them onto the apostles (men of like passions) and treating them as if they were gods, wanting to do sacrifice unto them now.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Another thought on this, we don't say Jesus is Ba'al. We don't say Jesus is Zeus or Jupiter. Why denigrate Mary by calling her 'queen of heaven', given what we know of its pagan sources, just like Jupiter?

I think the train is getting off track here...Queen of Heaven is Mary's title and position...it isnt a replacement of the pagan goddess...no one worships Mary as they did the pagan goddess, thus your argument is null...

Her position is the same as the Queen Mother (i.e Bathsheba) was to Solomon...a powerful intercessor to the King...This position is seen all throughout Israel's history.

 

[Rhamiel]

1 kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.


Solomon was a king of Israel, and Jesus is called Son of David by the blind man
calling Mary Queen of Heaven is about the fact that she is the Mother of Jesus who is the King of heaven
see how the kings of Israel treated their mothers?

 

[Defensor Christi]

I think the train is getting off track here...Queen of Heaven is Mary's title and position...it isnt a replacement of the pagan goddess...no one worships Mary as they did the pagan goddess, thus your argument is null...

Her position is the same as the Queen Mother (i.e Bathsheba) was to Solomon...a powerful intercessor to the King...This position is seen all throughout Israel's history.

1 kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.


Solomon was a king of Israel, and Jesus is called Son of David by the blind man
calling Mary Queen of Heaven is about the fact that she is the Mother of Jesus who is the King of heaven
see how the kings of Israel treated their mothers?

My point exactly...thanks! That should pretty much close this thread right up...no?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My point exactly...thanks! That should pretty much close this thread right up...no?

Or we can continue on this other one

http://www.christianforums.com/t6849360/
http://www.christianforums.com/t6849360-9/#post43498642
Mary - Queen Of Heaven (2)

Mary - Queen Of Heaven
What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? Well, in the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this in the history of Middle Eastern nations of the time. We specifically see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne. Remember, the Jews wanted a king in order to be &#8220;like all nations&#8221;. Thus, following the models of the neighboring lands, they established a dynasty, a legal system, a royal court &#8211; and a queen mother. She was the &#8220;Gebirah&#8221; &#8211; Great Lady.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation: &#8220;Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)


Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

[6] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. [7] Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [8] All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. [9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. [10] Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; [11] So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom (though it is present on earth in the Church) but rather a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ. The Jews who knew Jesus would have understood this perfectly. Jesus is &#8220;Son of David&#8221; who would inherit the throne of David. And who would inherit the throne at his side, the seat of the Queen Mother? His mother, of course.

I would like to mention two great resources:

1) An mp3 link of Dr. Scott Hahn discussing Mariology, and his book "Hail Holy Queen" on an episode of "Catholic Answers Live":
http://www.catholic.com/audio/2000/mp3/ca001129.mp3


2) The actual book, "Hail Holy Queen" by Dr. Scott Hahn

​

 

[Defensor Christi]

Or we can continue on this other one

http://www.christianforums.com/t6849360-9/#post43498642
Mary - Queen Of Heaven (2)

Mary - Queen Of Heaven
What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? Well, in the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this in the history of Middle Eastern nations of the time. We specifically see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne. Remember, the Jews wanted a king in order to be &#8220;like all nations&#8221;. Thus, following the models of the neighboring lands, they established a dynasty, a legal system, a royal court &#8211; and a queen mother. She was the &#8220;Gebirah&#8221; &#8211; Great Lady.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation: &#8220;Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)


Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

[6] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. [7] Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [8] All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. [9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. [10] Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; [11] So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom (though it is present on earth in the Church) but rather a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ. The Jews who knew Jesus would have understood this perfectly. Jesus is &#8220;Son of David&#8221; who would inherit the throne of David. And who would inherit the throne at his side, the seat of the Queen Mother? His mother, of course.

I would like to mention two great resources:

1) An mp3 link of Dr. Scott Hahn discussing Mariology, and his book "Hail Holy Queen" on an episode of "Catholic Answers Live":
http://www.catholic.com/audio/2000/mp3/ca001129.mp3


2) The actual book, "Hail Holy Queen" by Dr. Scott Hahn

​

Awesome post! Dr. Scott Hahn is one of my favorites and easily answers the question of the OP...Thanks Lamb!!

PS: I own that book...good read!

 

[bbbbbbb]

The difficulty, of couse, is that the Bible never assigns a title to Mary. Later theologians who were not content with her not having a title decided to deduce various titles for her, such as Theotokos (Mother of God), Queen of Heaven, Co-Redemptrix, etc.). One can employ logic in the most wonderful ways to reach the strangest conclusions. I suggest the we not go there and just let Mary be Mary.