Who'd You Choose: Girl Who Messed Up Sexually but Repented..or the One ALWAYS Clean?

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Shalom :)

This post should speak for itself..

But for any of the men and ladies out there (especially those looking for a spouse), I was curious as to what your thoughts would be. Because for anyone involved in things such as "TRUE LOVE WAITS" conferences, though I appreciate them, has anyone ever found it odd that many times the emphasis is placed on those who've never messed up as the ULTIMATE in PURITY? And those with the stories of "Well, we waited till we got married to become intimate.....and it's the Best.." are the ones that get exalted? And yet, for those ladies that've had children born out of wedlock, involved in prostitution/raped, or other things where there was sexual misconduct, the stories of those women ending up in solid marriages and relationships are not as highlighted as much---as if they never get a "And they lived happily ever after..."?

And in all realness, how often have many men said "If I had to choose between a girl who messed up sexually and one who never did, I'd go with the pure one....she's more Holy"?
 
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The only reason I would ever have preferred a virgin would be so that I would be his one and only, and he'd never have memories or images of anyone else but me. It would have nothing to do with how "holy" or "pure" he was or wasn't. God's pretty clear in that, if you so much as look at someone to lust after them, you're already an adulterer in your heart. Being a physical virgin is NOT indicative of sexual purity in the heart and mind.

As it is, neither my husband nor I were virgins when we met, and we have never drudged up each others' sexual pasts and probably never will. Our relationship is our own, built between just the two of us, and is all I'll ever want or need.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The only reason I would ever have preferred a virgin would be so that I would be his one and only, and he'd never have memories or images of anyone else but me. It would have nothing to do with how "holy" or "pure" he was or wasn't. God's pretty clear in that, if you so much as look at someone to lust after them, you're already an adulterer in your heart. Being a physical virgin is NOT indicative of sexual purity in the heart and mind.

As it is, neither my husband nor I were virgins when we met, and we have never drudged up each others' sexual pasts and probably never will. Our relationship is our own, built between just the two of us, and is all I'll ever want or need.
Good points as it concerns virginity being more than just physical...
 
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seeingeyes

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I find it interesting that you use the word 'clean' as synonymous for 'someone who has never had sex'. You allude to this is your post, too, that it is odd that virginity is equated to purity.

But it's not only odd, it's flat-out unbiblical. even the Mosaic Law did not considered someone who wasn't a virgin 'unclean', nor even unmarriageable.

See how folks like making up rules? It's just like Israel begging for a king. Nothing new under the sun. :)
 
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seeingeyes

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Nope - there's just human nature - running it's natural course again and again. lol

Totally off topic, but this is why I'm enjoying getting old. I can't wait to be 72 and look back at my 33 year old self and wonder what the heck I was thinking. :D
 
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iambren

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I get that the ideal is both to be virgins on the wedding night. That is God's way but many fail to achieve it, especially in our culture that tends to defer marriage until higher education is achieved.

However, virginity is not the big deal-breaker that a lot of people make it to be on these boards. I lived a pretty sexually active life before Christ and was divorced and remarried. I NEVER remember thinking of an ex-lover while I was making love to my wife. The only time it would be thought of is if YOU were to obsess over it and go picking for details with your spouse.

High-sexed experienced girl---may know the moves but could also be a promiscuous reaction to former sex-abuse. Or a woman that is impulse driven.
Both could flip to rejecting sex in marriage when thrill of the new, or the sameness of a healthy steady sex life occurs.

I knew a professional Christian counselor who said that he and his wife were virgins going to the altar. A while into the marriage she slammed the door on sex and the marriage failed.

So what's one to do? Can you hedge your bets to get a mate that is decently sexual for the long haul? My view is controversial but I think some room should be made (not intercourse) for a couple to be able to express love intimately before marriage to judge a measure of compatibility. Stringent rules of physical contact may be well-meaning but dysfunctional. OR we go back to arranged marriages and you get the pick of the draw!
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I find it interesting that you use the word 'clean' as synonymous for 'someone who has never had sex'. You allude to this is your post, too, that it is odd that virginity is equated to purity.

But it's not only odd, it's flat-out unbiblical. even the Mosaic Law did not considered someone who wasn't a virgin 'unclean', nor even unmarriageable.

See how folks like making up rules? It's just like Israel begging for a king. Nothing new under the sun. :)
To be clear,

As it concerns the Mosaic Law, there were actually many strict rules that often seemed to note that someone who wasn't a virgin was often closed/off limits.

In example, there's no escaping the evil of "rape" and the reality of how it's not a matter of "choice" as with other things in regards to purity. For a woman to be forcibly entered when she has not chosen, when she is not ready, causes her body which tries to clamp up, terrible pain. I don't think enough men understand this. For she has not 'messed up sexually', she has been ATTACKED. And to my mind a raped virgin is still virgin in heart and soul. She has not yet enjoyed sex, or willingly given her body in love and joy to a man.

However, many churches do consider someone to be "impure" when raped due to what the example of scripture





2 Samuel 13/2 Samuel 13:18

Amnon and Tamar

1 In the course of time, Amnon son of David fell in love with Tamar, the beautiful sister of Absalom son of David.

2 Amnon became frustrated to the point of illness on account of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible for him to do anything to her.
3 Now Amnon had a friend named Jonadab son of Shimeah, David's brother. Jonadab was a very shrewd man. 4 He asked Amnon, "Why do you, the king's son, look so haggard morning after morning? Won't you tell me?"

Amnon said to him, "I'm in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom's sister."


5 "Go to bed and pretend to be ill," Jonadab said. "When your father comes to see you, say to him, 'I would like my sister Tamar to come and give me something to eat. Let her prepare the food in my sight so I may watch her and then eat it from her hand.' "
6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill. When the king came to see him, Amnon said to him, "I would like my sister Tamar to come and make some special bread in my sight, so I may eat from her hand."
7 David sent word to Tamar at the palace: "Go to the house of your brother Amnon and prepare some food for him." 8 So Tamar went to the house of her brother Amnon, who was lying down. She took some dough, kneaded it, made the bread in his sight and baked it. 9 Then she took the pan and served him the bread, but he refused to eat.

"Send everyone out of here," Amnon said. So everyone left him. 10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, "Bring the food here into my bedroom so I may eat from your hand." And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother Amnon in his bedroom. 11 But when she took it to him to eat, he grabbed her and said, "Come to bed with me, my sister."


12 "Don't, my brother!" she said to him. "Don't force me. Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don't do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you." 14 But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

15 Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred. In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her. Amnon said to her, "Get up and get out!"

16 "No!" she said to him. "Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me."
But he refused to listen to her. 17 He called his personal servant and said, "Get this woman out of here and bolt the door after her." 18 So his servant put her out and bolted the door after her. She was wearing a richly ornamented [
a] robe, for this was the kind of garment the virgin daughters of the king wore. 19 Tamar put ashes on her head and tore the ornamented [b] robe she was wearing. She put her hand on her head and went away, weeping aloud as she went.

20 Her brother Absalom said to her, "Has that Amnon, your brother, been with you? Be quiet now, my sister; he is your brother. Don't take this thing to heart." And Tamar lived in her brother Absalom's house, a desolate woman.

21 When King David heard all this, he was furious. 22 Absalom never said a word to Amnon, either good or bad; he hated Amnon because he had disgraced his sister Tamar
.

One of the places I was lanning on working at - an organization that promotes foster care through the local church - had a wonderful manager who shared some amazing things with me. He's a powerful man of God, who grew up in a men's home/got married in one and has done work in the field for years..and he was sharing how at one of their conferences where they share ideas, a lady stood up....and gave her testimony on how she was raped and literally had people IN THE CHURCH saying how no one would ever love her or take care of the child that was produced in the Union. Of course, by the Grace of God, that was all proven wrong---as one of the elders in the church looked after her, fell in love with her, and married her....and the child, who many said would never make it, is now 8yrs old.

Sadly, though, that's not the case for all women........as there are many places where women are sadly seen as foolish for placing themselves in positions to be raped (i.e. "date rape", "not being careful of the men they got involved with", being in an emotional state due to a myriad of factors like their home/families where many of them subjected themselves willingly to the process of being taken advantage of, etc) and they're the ones who get less press.....as they're not the ones that're placed up as much for discussion.

To be clear, I wanted to be clear that I don't belittle Rape in the slightest.....as one of my close friends was raped TWICE, alongside others. Where I'm coming from, though, is that it seems their stories of how the Lord was GOOD to them in their circumstances and sent them men who'd understand them/the issues they struggled with are never discussed as often....and I know of men who honestly would not marry girls/women that were "raped" due to how they don't fit the ideal girl---one who, in the eyes of many, does not have as much "emotional/spiritual" baggage to deal with (as it can be a battle for many)
__________________





As it concerns the OP, have you or anyone here ever heard of or read a Book entitled "Bad Girls of the Bible"?



Read it and loved it, as I thought of how many girls seem to think the Bible's only full of "pure" ones that the Lord worked through/used...and yet on the others (Rahab, Ruth, etc), they're never mentioned.....


I think that the TLW conferences, as do most Christians and churches, place those who have never committed a sexual sin on a pedestal because we all have a tendency to believe that one sin is worse than another. Sexual sins can (and usually do) have worse consequences than other sins but it is no worse than lying or any other sin. [(Please don't think that I'm making light of sexual sin. The consequences of this kind of sin can be far-reaching.)] I am always happy when I hear of a young couple that were both virgins when they marry (and there have been many at my church in the last 3 years or so) but I think that we tend to forget about those who have failed previously in this area and are now trying to live a life of purity and that is wrong. If they are saved, then God has forgiven them and they are pure in the eyes of God. Who are we to think less of them because of their past sexual sin?


1 Cor. 6: 9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


I would tell someone in this situation not to rule out a woman or man who has had past sexual sin, but be cautious. There are alot of STDs out there. If the two people involved in this situation are getting serious, then the person with the sexual past would need to be very open and honest about their past history to their potential spouse, even if it means that they could lose them.
 
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As it is, neither my husband nor I were virgins when we met, and we have never drudged up each others' sexual pasts and probably never will. Our relationship is our own, built between just the two of us, and is all I'll ever want or need.

Did anyone here happen to see "Madea's Family Reunion"?





It's a 2006 movie directed by Tyler Perry. While planning her family reunion, the pistol-packing grandma, Mabel "Madea" Simmons, must contend with the other dramas on her plate, including the runaway who has been placed under her care, and her troubled nieces.

It's an excellent movie, IMHO, and on the issue of sexual abuse, had much to say on the realities of it---alongside the issue of forgiveness and how those in situations such as that have their redemption stories/happily ever afters...and as one review said of it (an excerpt):

Though she’s its major draw, Madea actually appears in less than a quarter of the movie, and when she is onscreen she seems a shadow of her former self. She tones down her antics — her gun remains holstered throughout — and becomes the voice of reason. (When she’s not savagely beating someone, that is.) Her subplot, in which she’s ordered by Judge Ephriam to take in a young girl named Nikki (Keke Palmer) as her foster daughter and must teach her to believe in her own abilities and stand up to bullies, places a distant third behind the stories of two women who may be her nieces or cousins or step-granddaughters or something (once again, Perry is vague about the exact familial relationship).

Those women are Lisa (Rochelle Aytes) and Vanessa (Lisa Arrindell Anderson), two attractive, intelligent young ladies with major relationship problems. Outwardly, Lisa seems to have the man issue all sewn up: She’s engaged to Carlos Armstrong (Blair Underwood), one of Atlanta’s most eligible bachelors, who’s the kind of guy who hires a string trio to play for his sweetie while she lathers up her tatas. Unfortunately he’s also the kind of guy who slaps her across the face for any petty annoyance and threatens to throw her off his 30th-floor balcony if she ever tries to leave him. Vanessa’s problems are less dramatic but still vexing: Having dated a string of losers who treated her like dirt and left her with two kids to raise on her own, she’s been so often hurt and disappointed that she now distrusts all men. When she meets Frankie Henderson (Boris Kodjoe), who is a bus driver by day, a painter by night, and handsome, kind, and Christian all the time, she fears he’s too good to be for real


If anyone else has seen the movie, please let me know....as movies by Tyler Perry (including his other one entitled "Diary of a Mad Black Woman" is one of my all time favorites----alognside another entitled "Woman, THou Art Loosed"--which made alot of reviews/impressions).
__________________
 
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seeingeyes

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Gxg (G²);62197905 said:
To be clear,

As it concerns the Mosaic Law, there were actually many strict rules that often seemed to note that someone who wasn't a virgin was often closed/off limits.

The Mosaic Law certainly wasn't shy about stating what was 'clean' and what was 'unclean'. And virginity (or lack thereof) simply wasn't on the list.

Any church that uses the story of Tamar to imply that non-virgin women are 'unclean' has an uphill fight against the word of God. Rahab comes to mind...
 
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LinkH

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I'm married now, and my wife was a virgin, and so was I when we got married.

I guess it depends on the situation as to who would be a better spouse. Are we assuming you 'connect' equally as well with both, both have equally good character, and both are equally attractive? I'd go with the virgin, of course.

I wanted to only marry a virgin anyway. It is normal for a man to want his wife to be a virgin. We just live in an abnormal society where it is not a big deal. I desired to marry a virgin after reading the Old Testament as a child.

I noticed that there was a death penalty if a girl played the harlot and lost her virginity before marriage and got married off as a virgin. A man who seduced a virgin had to marry her if her father would agree to it, and had to pay the bride price for virgins. Priests could only marry Israelite virgins or widowed priest's wives. A priest was not allowed to marry a 'defiled woman.'

I believe at any conference where they promote virginity to Christian young people, they should emphasize God's forgiveness. I Corinthians 6 says of fornicators, "and such WERE some of you. But now ye are washed, now ye are sanctified, and now ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" or something similar to that.

But Hebrews 12 warns that the fornicator among you might defile many. It compares the fornicator or profane person to Esau, who sold his birthright for a bowl of beans. Later, he did not inherit the blessing. He wept, but the blessing had already been given to another. God can forgive the fornicator, but when you fornicate, you can lose something big you could have had. In Esau's case, it was something big.

I haven't checked out the stats and it isn't peer-reviewed, but the Social Pathology website shows some evidence that there is a relationship between being virgins at marriage and being with their first spouse later on.


This shows the outcome of the first marriage at the time of the interview

One pre-marital partner, not later spouse: 49.6%
ONe pre-marital partner, was later spouse: 25.6%
zero pre-marital partners " 23.7%

Widowed or still married
One pre-marital partner, not later spouse: 50.3%
ONe pre-marital partner, was later spouse: 74.3%
zero pre-marital partners 76.2%

Let's say you married an uber-promiscuous woman who promised to be faithful to you. Is is possible that it might be difficult for her to actually pull of staying faithful? Going out to a club when her husband is out of town and hooking up is going to seem like less of a big deal, and more natural to her, than a woman who was a virgin at marriage, IMO.

Women who save themselves for marriage, IMO, are likely to highly value their sexuality and keeping pure, and they are also likely to value the man they thought enough of to save themselves for. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. That principle applies to, in that if you have invested a lot in someone or something, you are likely to value that person. Saving yourself for your spouse says something about how you value your spouse.

I think it applies to women, too, looking for a godly man. If you marry an alley cat, it's going to be harder for him to break the habit when he gets married. If you marry a man who has had the self-control not to give in to temptation or to tempt young women into sin, then that self-control may pay off when he is married.

I just don't worry about my wife going off and sleeping with men. From what I can tell, she's not worried about me having any affairs on the side. If either of us had been sleeping around before, it might have been harder to trust each other. She knows I didn't push her to do that before marriage, and I think that helps a lot with trust.

I'm married. If something bad happened and I ended up a widower and wanted to remarry, I think I'd probably look for a mature responsible virgin or a virtuous honorable widow. But that's a depressing thought. I'm praying and believing God for a long and happy life with my wife.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I'm married now, and my wife was a virgin, and so was I when we got married.

I guess it depends on the situation as to who would be a better spouse. Are we assuming you 'connect' equally as well with both, both have equally good character, and both are equally attractive? I'd go with the virgin, of course.

I wanted to only marry a virgin anyway. It is normal for a man to want his wife to be a virgin. We just live in an abnormal society where it is not a big deal. I desired to marry a virgin after reading the Old Testament as a child.

I noticed that there was a death penalty if a girl played the harlot and lost her virginity before marriage and got married off as a virgin. A man who seduced a virgin had to marry her if her father would agree to it, and had to pay the bride price for virgins. Priests could only marry Israelite virgins or widowed priest's wives. A priest was not allowed to marry a 'defiled woman.'

I believe at any conference where they promote virginity to Christian young people, they should emphasize God's forgiveness. I Corinthians 6 says of fornicators, "and such WERE some of you. But now ye are washed, now ye are sanctified, and now ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" or something similar to that.

But Hebrews 12 warns that the fornicator among you might defile many. It compares the fornicator or profane person to Esau, who sold his birthright for a bowl of beans. Later, he did not inherit the blessing. He wept, but the blessing had already been given to another. God can forgive the fornicator, but when you fornicate, you can lose something big you could have had. In Esau's case, it was something big.

I haven't checked out the stats and it isn't peer-reviewed, but the Social Pathology website shows some evidence that there is a relationship between being virgins at marriage and being with their first spouse later on.


This shows the outcome of the first marriage at the time of the interview

One pre-marital partner, not later spouse: 49.6%
ONe pre-marital partner, was later spouse: 25.6%
zero pre-marital partners " 23.7%

Widowed or still married
One pre-marital partner, not later spouse: 50.3%
ONe pre-marital partner, was later spouse: 74.3%
zero pre-marital partners 76.2%

Let's say you married an uber-promiscuous woman who promised to be faithful to you. Is is possible that it might be difficult for her to actually pull of staying faithful? Going out to a club when her husband is out of town and hooking up is going to seem like less of a big deal, and more natural to her, than a woman who was a virgin at marriage, IMO.

Women who save themselves for marriage, IMO, are likely to highly value their sexuality and keeping pure, and they are also likely to value the man they thought enough of to save themselves for. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. That principle applies to, in that if you have invested a lot in someone or something, you are likely to value that person. Saving yourself for your spouse says something about how you value your spouse.

I think it applies to women, too, looking for a godly man. If you marry an alley cat, it's going to be harder for him to break the habit when he gets married. If you marry a man who has had the self-control not to give in to temptation or to tempt young women into sin, then that self-control may pay off when he is married.

I just don't worry about my wife going off and sleeping with men. From what I can tell, she's not worried about me having any affairs on the side. If either of us had been sleeping around before, it might have been harder to trust each other. She knows I didn't push her to do that before marriage, and I think that helps a lot with trust.

I'm married. If something bad happened and I ended up a widower and wanted to remarry, I think I'd probably look for a mature responsible virgin or a virtuous honorable widow. But that's a depressing thought. I'm praying and believing God for a long and happy life with my wife.

So in your view, it'd be better to marry someone who never messed up?
 
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CounselorForChrist

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To not marry someone who has messed up is to throw stones and be judgmental. Sometimes we think losing your virginity is one of the top sins. But people forgot God judges ALL sin the same. Whether you murdered someone or you stole some gum... its all a sin.

To be fair, before I lost my virginity at 27 I would judge those who did lose it and put myself high on a pedestal and said "Psh, I would not lose it because I am strong!". Then once I lost it I realized how stupid I was for being so high and mighty. Then I realized you can't judge someone because they lost it.

Now... lets say theres a woman whos 25 and been a christian her whole life, but has had 20 sexual partners. THen to me it does leave the door open for not wanting to marry her. Messing up once, even twice I can deal with. But 20 times? First times a mistake, second time is a choice.
 
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LinkH

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To not marry someone who has messed up is to throw stones and be judgmental.

No, it's not. Not necessarily. We are talking about marriage here, not accepting someone into fellowship.

If a man wants to marry only a redhead, or only an Asian, or only a tall girl, or only a short girl, or only a really quite woman, or only a woman who knows how to juggle, that's up to him. He has liberty to make his choice. At least virginity is something presented as desirable for a wife, unlike some of the other physical characteristics.

Sometimes we think losing your virginity is one of the top sins. But people forgot God judges ALL sin the same.

The Bible teaches that God judges sin, but where does it say that He judges all sin the same? Some sins had death penalties attached in the Old Testament. The servant who knows that His master is coming and beats his fellow servants and eats and drinks with the drunken is beaten with more stripes than the servant who did not know.

Now... lets say theres a woman whos 25 and been a christian her whole life, but has had 20 sexual partners. THen to me it does leave the door open for not wanting to marry her. Messing up once, even twice I can deal with. But 20 times? First times a mistake, second time is a choice.

Is it any more judgmental to set the standard at 20 times instead of 1?
 
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CounselorForChrist

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Some sins had death penalties attached in the Old Testament.
I'm no theologian but from what I understand the old testament laws of what was more sinful then another don't apply since Jesus was on earth. Now all sins are equal in Gods eyes. Again thats my view, not claiming it is right or wrong.

Is it any more judgmental to set the standard at 20 times instead of 1?
Well I guess I shouldn't say judgement as much as it is common sense and logic. If someone is lets say 40 and only had sex once. No worries. But if a person is 40 and had 60 sexual partners then everything from psychology to science to your own feels should tell you it may be harder to trust someone that has had that many sexual partners.

Yes the person that had sex only once could cheat or lie to. But people obsessed with sex are less likely to be loyal. I was with two woman who were like this. I didn't hold it again them that they had more sex partners then I could count. But I didn't know any better at the time. This applies to life long christians because while a christian can mess up and have sex before marriage, to do it 20, 40, 100 times (or have that many partners) is no longer an accident.

That i simply my view. I am not claiming its right or wrong. I just prefer being smart and safe when it comes to someone I will be married to.
 
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I would only choose a virgin. If I found out she engaged in fornication of any form I would breakup with her. I'm going to be a virgin until the wedding night so I expect the same. I would rather be single than be with an adulterous woman. I will either marry virtuous woman or remain abstinent and single.

Many of my reasons are in LinkH's explanation.
 
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